bgd73 Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Are these sprockets misaligned? The inner one is in a different spot than outer. I had heard an exhaust type noise, like a pipe leak, from drivers side exhaust valves. I knew the belts were new and timed correctly with proper tension. Could this be a cause? or is it exactly correct and I overlooked something else.The drivers side belt is longer, so anomolies if any do happen do there quite easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 The position of the crank sprockets relative to each other means nothing. It's been a while since I've done an EA82 timing belt, but I've never paid any attention to that. If the keyway on the crank is okay, the crank itself is okay, and the sprockets are okay (i.e. not bent or dented up in that area), then you're fine. Do you have an exhaust leak? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 27, 2006 Author Share Posted October 27, 2006 no I didn't. I have the engine out and was looking it over. Maybe the head itself was leaking. I want to tear it down and rebuild. Oil leaks did not justify consumption- there was hardly anything to notice, except for my sloppy mess (spills). even the cam seals were doing good. Must be rings and valve seals. Upon figuring the math for timing, regardless of length of belt, shouldn't those two gears be in the same spot? It seems as though this has a delay built in. If cams are exactly the same, this really is an off timer.The right side was quite sound, the left one (drivers side) wasn't- I even mentioned that I thought the exhaust was opening too soon on driver side head with a thread I posted here some time back. It was definately an exhaust valves problem and I shrugged it off as a belt anomoly. If to align them - leaving passenger one where it is and matching the driver side to it- intake would open sooner and exhaust later, on the driver side head right? This engine is from a sedan, is the wagons sprockets the same? by the manual the sedans at 84 hp and I don't know how they reduced it from 90 on same bore and stroke, intake and cams. Just a guess. There was a crazy snappy oddity about this engine in the 2wd and I never figured it out. Ruling out some thoughts, hope to gain some insight on the inner workings of this engine beyond repair/replace stuff (such as slightly porting heads and intake at both cylinder heads). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 They are supposed to be that way - the differences in belt length and routing requires the sprockets to orient differently to the crank. Remember - crank speed is 2x cam speed. The belt ribbing size is arbitrary in relation to the sprocket diameters so that there is no correlation between the two. Oreintation of the sprocket is purely a function of the length of the belt from the sprocket of the crank to that of the cam (with the tensioner tight), and the belt ribbing size. It would be impossible to oreint the sprockets the same with different belt lengths - try it out on paper if you don't beleive me. Or take a geometry class. As for the HP increase - the SPFI is the cause of that. Different cam profile, stronger valve springs, larger pistons (more compression) and a larger better flowing intake allow for higher RPM's and a better power curve. The SPFI is 9.5:1 comp. and 90 HP at 5200 RPM, and the older carb engine is 9.0:1 comp. and 84 HP at 4800 RPM. Check out where the redline on the tach is between your two cars and you will see what I mean. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 I remember noticing that oddity myself a while back, and that's the way they're supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted October 27, 2006 Author Share Posted October 27, 2006 That is good to know, thanks. I did take a hard hit and the engine kept running on 2 cyls. Didn't know if they were pressed on or keyed (locked).Will proceed to tear apart with confidence about it. Would like to have spfi heads on the 100k carb engine. 100k isn't much- so it will all line up then without any doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 Are these sprockets misaligned? The inner one is in a different spot than outer. I had heard an exhaust type noise, like a pipe leak, from drivers side exhaust valves. I knew the belts were new and timed correctly with proper tension. Could this be a cause? or is it exactly correct and I overlooked something else.The drivers side belt is longer, so anomolies if any do happen do there quite easily. The above sprockets are misaligned. I took apart my wagon for the oil pump seal and lo and behold there it was... the timing marks exactly aligned to each other unlike photo above. If you want the full 90 hp in your sedan... start with those marks after checking the timing belts, subaru did this oem to 84hp sedans (and wherever else the ea82 strangely had oem listed hp less than 90). I thought I caused it at first, but it is no doubt a premeditated maneuvre for whoever put it together by oem standards. the motor was untouched before I dove into it. Would love to verify with someone elses sedan (2wd especially). How many mysteries are there?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 did you remove the sprockets yet? just curious if you're positive they're not damaged or it has keyway damage of any kind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urabus-84HBDR Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Are these sprockets misaligned? The inner one is in a different spot than outer. I had heard an exhaust type noise, like a pipe leak, from drivers side exhaust valves. I knew the belts were new and timed correctly with proper tension. Could this be a cause? or is it exactly correct and I overlooked something else.The drivers side belt is longer, so anomolies if any do happen do there quite easily. when i replaced my front crank seal (88 gl-10t) the sprockets were off just barely... thats how i left them, no problems, not forseeing any either... just make sure the cams are timed correctly! 180 out from each other... oh and yea one belt is longer than the other... cant remember what one is tho... lol. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I thought I caused it at first, but it is no doubt a premeditated maneuvre for whoever put it together by oem standards. You are insane. Did the voices in your head tell you this? :-\ GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 You are insane. Did the voices in your head tell you this? :-\ GD Thanks for yet another false derogatory statement "GeneralDisorder". Is there a way to report a forum user as "harassment" to a moderator ? It is easy to say things when your 3000+ miles away and I don't know you (therefore no comments to you) Why do you insist on hurting with these ridiculous comments ? Since we don't speak english the same, or whatever it is that drives your comments, here is a "big" "fat" "photo" of a bent cam sprocket that survived a 65mph crash from the engine with misaligned timing gears (above photos). It was my first thoughts in why the sprockets were misaligned, until I saw the key is perfect. I may seek another 2wd sedan and have a normal engine in it some time... after all it is the most common sense machine out of all these underpowered ea82s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodaka Rider Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Not sure what the cam sprocket has to do with the crank sprockets allegedly being 'intentionally misalligned', but it would be interesting to see if someone can produce evidence that the '84 hp' engine had alligned teeth on the pullies. No photochops, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshoup Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Dorothy's engine has the crank sprockets 'misaligned'. As was stated earlier, it won't run right unless they are. One side is like 44 teeth from the crank sprocket to the cam sprocket, and the other is like 40.5. They need to be misaligned to allow for this extra half tooth. Another one for evidence, my original shortblock in Dorothy originally came from either a carb, or an SPFI (never knew for sure), and the crank sprockets were yet, misaligned as well. I bet if someone looked in the FSM, it would actually show this as well. I'm going to say, double check your carby motor just to make sure you're not crazy. Take a digicam pic if you can and prove us all wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong, but all my physical evidence says you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodaka Rider Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 I'm going to say, double check your carby motor just to make sure you're not crazy. Take a digicam pic if you can and prove us all wrong. I'm not saying you're wrong, but all my physical evidence says you are. That's what I'm trying to day. He needs to see it with his own eyes, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 He needs to see it with his own eyes, though. That seems to be the problem. He only beleives what he wants, and utterly disregards anything we on the board have to say. That's fine, but I hate to see these threads because there's plenty of people that might get entirely the wrong ideas from them. The search is helpful, and we tell people to use it, but it's actually harmfull if you pull up disinformation about "invisibles", glow in the dark spark plugs, and subaru engineers purposely mis-aligning the valve timing. He's crazy like a bag of hammers, and it's starting to get annoying. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Instead of posting a new thread, I found this and I'll post here. The sprokets are different. There are different part numbers for each one. The FSM specifies that they are different and must remain in their original position be it the 1st one, or 2nd one....FSM states the 'No.2' is the front one that powers the 1-3 side. HOWEVER...with out a CLEAR picture...it is VERY difficult to tell which one is which. FSM states that the one with the dowel pin is the 'No.2' and goes most towards the front. However, none of mine have dowel pins left in them...so all I have to work with is which tooth is offset from the woodruff key and which one is 'most not offset' to tell...along with a very grainy picture from the FSM. It appears that, from a 1991 Loyale FSM, section 2-3, that the 'front' one has more offset than the 'back' one....in which the offset of the tooth from the key groove is maybe only about 5 to 6 degrees. The front one appears to have approx. 10 to 15 degrees offset fromthe key groove. If you look hard enough and closely enough...you can barely see that the parts blow apart in section 2-3 depics this in the figure ever so slightly...as in real life, it is an EVER so SLIGHT difference. I'll get some pics up ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Are these sprockets misaligned? The inner one is in a different spot than outer. I had heard an exhaust type noise, like a pipe leak, from drivers side exhaust valves. I knew the belts were new and timed correctly with proper tension. Could this be a cause? or is it exactly correct and I overlooked something else.The drivers side belt is longer, so anomolies if any do happen do there quite easily. Your's are on backwards. Take the rear one, and put it in the front position, and the front one in the back. After reading over the training material and talking to the Tech-Help Line at SOA, I have the correct information regarding the correct orientation of the crankshaft timing belt sprockets. Once I get the pictures made and material scanned in, I will post them. Most likely it will be later tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgd73 Posted December 22, 2006 Author Share Posted December 22, 2006 thanks much. I have the spfi block sitting here and don't even want to get enthused about using it until I was given info about cam differences in another thread. To get what I want, the carb cams on carb timing of the crank with spfi pistons will make my little engine that could without a doubt. The spfi timing in photo left me tinkering seemingly endless for most of a summer nearly everyday- trying to figure out why it would not thump and pump like my older carbed ea82. That timing was the answer, as well as the cams being different for strange reasons (to me as an old v8 builder) Again, as of taking it apart to verify, the back sprocket closest to engine block for 2 and 4 cyl timed in *exact*, the forward one for 1 and 3 was off hopelessly. A half tooth on perfect cams (and spfis are not) is alot of degrees for 2.65 inch stroke, like 2.422 cc added to the pistons of spfi adding .5 on the compression. Very sensitive no doubt. Given the history of subaru and seeing how dramatically smaller vehicles got before the ea82, the conservative ea82's that did not make sense, and the ability to make a rather powerful n/a ea82 had all the ingredients in pieces over 3 engines (mpfi turbo, spfi and carb) needed explanation rather than prejudice. Thanks for help. These questions have been lurking for years to me and some friends I knew that ran them- from xt, to loyale and older carbed and the noticable differences. I am trying to put the "what if" scenarios into action, and I am now certain I can simply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodaka Rider Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Your's are on backwards. Take the rear one, and put it in the front position, and the front one in the back. Yes, but the teeth will STILL not line up with each other! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted December 22, 2006 Share Posted December 22, 2006 Yes, but the teeth will STILL not line up with each other! Yes, I figured we would know this... You can hold the sprockets up against each other in the air or on a bench and see that the teeth on each sprocket do not line up with each other. However, getting the front vs the back in the right place is what matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 After reading over the training material and talking to the Tech-Help Line at SOA, I have the correct information regarding the correct orientation of the crankshaft timing belt sprockets. Once I get the pictures made and material scanned in, I will post them. Most likely it will be later tonight. Any word on those scans? I'm about to do my timing belts and mine are whacky-lookin', too - just want to make sure I have this right ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooziewhatsit Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 FWIW, I took two extra sprockets I have, lined them up per WJMs instructions, and they look just like the picture BGD posted. If I put them backwards, they are drastically different than BGDs pictures. -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 I forgot to bring them home, and I've been traveling to and from family. I'll make sure and get those things posted tomorrow....or before friday for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 The point is that the belt ribs are NOT "supposed" to line up, and this is NOT a factory "mistake". The difference in the belt routing (and thus the length) from the crank to each cam sprocket makes them completely seperate entities. Their alignment in relation to one another has no correlation what-so-ever. It is PURELY a function of the belt ribbing size, and the distance the belt must travel between the crank and cam. Which is different for passenger and driver cam's. This is just more irrational crap from BDG. He is unable to understand that the two belts, and cams are 100% seperate from one another, and so assumes that it must be a conspiracy against 2WD sedans. It's utter non-sense. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJM Posted December 26, 2006 Share Posted December 26, 2006 But there is a conspiracy against 2WD sedans...they are all dissapearing!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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