ron917 Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 I have a few logistical questions regarding removing/replacing the engine in my '99 Outback with the infamous 2.5L DOHC. A rebuilt from CCR is on the way, hopefully it will be here in a day or so. I haven't yanked a Subaru engine before, so I've got some questions on how to proceed. I do have the FSM, but it's not always clear on everything. 1. Lifting points: I found the rear lift ring no problem. For the front, it looks like the accessory bracket between the A/C compressor and alternator contains the lifting loop. Is that correct? What do folks do to lift engines when that bracket isn't installed (e.g., it won't be on the new engine)? 2. A/C compressor: The FSM says to disconnect the A/C refrigerant lines. On other cars, you can just unmount the compressor and the lines flex enough to lay it over on the fender. It looks like that strategy work in my Outback as well - will it? 3. When to remove intake manifold: The FSM shows the engine being pulled with the intake manifold and associated stuff in place. Is it easier to remove all of that before or after yanking the engine? Same question as to when to install the intake and stuff on the new engine - before putting it in, or afterward. 4. Anything tricky about this job? It looks straitforward, but I'd appreciate any tips about anything unusual or tricky. I'm sure I'll have other questions as I proceed. Thanks for your time! -Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 usually have the alt or a/c brackets in place at least when reinstalling to add a bolt or loop to in order to facillitate reinstalling it. yes the a/c lines you can just lay over the drivers side and do the work without purging the a/c charge. yes you can just unbolt the intake manifold and try to prop or hold it up and out of the way with the fuel lines, heater core hoses, throttle cables, all still attached. so you can just pull the long block out, and reinstall your new long block. one tricky part and that's if you have an automatic transmission. the torque converters on these are very tricky to seat the final 1/4". make absolutely certain it is fully seated that last 1/4". it's kind of hard to tell, the FSM usually gives you some measurements. once you slide it in it will take some gradual turning and small strokes of lifting a tiny bit/turning and sliding back down before it finally engagese properly. on a new car (one i haven't done before), i'd recommend "doing it twice" if you're not sure. seat it, watch how it drops that 1/4" then do it one more time for good measure. if you try to bolt the engine up without doing that it will crush your internal transmission oil pump and that's bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 If you look at this guy's web page, http://www.staff.uaf.edu/fnjwt/subaru.html and scroll down a few pics, you'll see how he undid the intake manifold ansd sat it on the windshield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 I've always left the intake manifold, alternator, and everything else on the engine and then remove it once the engine is out of the car. I've heard people talk about unbolting the intake so you can leave all the stuff connected to it, but there really isn't that much to disconnect, and I don't *think* it would save any time overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Don't open up the A/C lines for power steering lines. Remove the compressor from the bracket and lay it over the driver's side fender. Do the same with the power steering pump; remove it from the bracket and lay it over the passenger side bumper. Snowman is right on with the manifold; it should unplug with three connectors from the main harness on the passenger side if I remember correctly. You can remove it later if you need to. After that it's only the battery to disconnect, alternator, exhaust header and small stuff. It's probably easier if you drain the coolent and remove the radiator also. By the way, CCR is great to deal with; if you have any questions about replacing the engine, call them. I've also ways found them to be exceedingly helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearlm30 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 What about seperate the engine and transmission? How many bolts are holding them up together? I read some topics on this board that people have hard time to seperate the two. Also something about flex plate? What is flex plate? Thanks for the help Don't open up the A/C lines for power steering lines. Remove the compressor from the bracket and lay it over the driver's side fender. Do the same with the power steering pump; remove it from the bracket and lay it over the passenger side bumper. Snowman is right on with the manifold; it should unplug with three connectors from the main harness on the passenger side if I remember correctly. You can remove it later if you need to. After that it's only the battery to disconnect, alternator, exhaust header and small stuff. It's probably easier if you drain the coolent and remove the radiator also. By the way, CCR is great to deal with; if you have any questions about replacing the engine, call them. I've also ways found them to be exceedingly helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPX Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 What about seperate the engine and transmission? How many bolts are holding them up together? I read some topics on this board that people have hard time to seperate the two. Also something about flex plate? What is flex plate?Thanks for the help There are only four nuts/bolts holding the transmission to the engine. You might need a flex joint on your wrench to get to the nut on the lower left side (the side with the starter) There are four bolts that connect the flex plate to the torque converter on automatic transmissions. The flex plate is a thin metal disc that absorbs some of the driveline shock from the crankshaft to the torque converter. I also installed a CCR engine->http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=924535 You might want to use this checklist to make sure you remember what to remove and re-install as you go along. Staying organized will make the experience much easier. http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59033 As you progress with your project, post updates on this forum. A lot of clever people on here can help guide you. And it is always interesting to see/read about other people's Subaru projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 it is also possible to pull the engine and tranmission out as an assembly, still bolted together and seperate them out of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 Lots of good info, thanks! Today I'm clearing out enough space in the garage to work, I'll start the disassembly later today or tomorrow. one tricky part and that's if you have an automatic transmission. the torque converters on these are very tricky to seat the final 1/4". make absolutely certain it is fully seated that last 1/4". it's kind of hard to tell, the FSM usually gives you some measurements. Grossgary, the torque converter stays on the tranny, no? The FSM shows how to remove the bolts connecting the drive plate to the TC through an access hole on the top passenger side of the engine. Maybe the TC likes to stick to the drive plate and come out anyway? Thanks for the tip, though, just in case the TC does come off for whatever reason. I found the page in the FSM that shows the measurement, it's in the transmission section. For my car, the front of the TC should be 2.7 to 2.9 mm proud of the front of the housing. I'll measure that before reassembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 you're dead on, the torque converter can easily bump out a little when pulling the engine. i've seen a number of people not get it right and shatter their oil pump, but those are people that didn't know about it so you'll be all over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted November 6, 2006 Author Share Posted November 6, 2006 As I was writing my reply above, I got a phone call from my friend saying that my engine had arrived at his machine shop . I had it shipped there to save on shipping chages - they wanted a bunch extra to deliver to my home. I went over with my trailer to pick it up, he put it on with his forklift. The forklift was not necessary to unload at home - my wife and I just picked it up off the trailer and put it on a furniture dolly. Subaru engines weigh almost nothing! JPX, your links were very useful - lots of info and good links to more info. Among them, I found a hint about the torque converter bolts - raise the engine a bit, and access them from below. I'll try that out if I decide to leave the intake manifold on when removing the engine. Also, JPX, I was suprised to see that your engine didn't have the rear main seal installed. Mine does have the rear main seal installed. Again, thanks to all for the hints, tips and links! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearlm30 Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 Thanks everyone for the tips as well. Ron, good luck with your engine installation and keep us posted:banana: As I was writing my reply above, I got a phone call from my friend saying that my engine had arrived at his machine shop . I had it shipped there to save on shipping chages - they wanted a bunch extra to deliver to my home. I went over with my trailer to pick it up, he put it on with his forklift. The forklift was not necessary to unload at home - my wife and I just picked it up off the trailer and put it on a furniture dolly. Subaru engines weigh almost nothing! JPX, your links were very useful - lots of info and good links to more info. Among them, I found a hint about the torque converter bolts - raise the engine a bit, and access them from below. I'll try that out if I decide to leave the intake manifold on when removing the engine. Also, JPX, I was suprised to see that your engine didn't have the rear main seal installed. Mine does have the rear main seal installed. Again, thanks to all for the hints, tips and links! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted November 9, 2006 Author Share Posted November 9, 2006 The engine is out! It was a lot of work, but nothing terribly difficult. The worst part of this project so far is that I had to clean out the garage to get the car in. I took the intake manifold off before removing the engine. They crammed a LOT of stuff under there. They guys who built it obviously have very small hands. Undoing some of those connectors and hoses was tricky. But, it had to come off eventually and it makes it much easier to reach the torque converter/drive plate bolts. The torque converter stayed put, I measured the "stickout" and it meets the spec in the manual. When I was removing the torque converter/drive plate bolts, I stuffed a rag into the access hole to avoid dropping the bolts inside. The FSM didn't mention it, but the starter had to come off. Its flange prevented me from getting a wrench on one of the engine/transmission bolts (second from the top on the driver's side). It was only two wires and one more nut to get off, since its top mounting bolt does double-duty as an engine/trans bolt. The lowest driver side engine/trans nut was the trickiest. My 1/2" flex handle and 14mm socket barely fit behind the DOJ, but it did the trick. A 3/8" flex handle would fit better. A 6 point socket is highly recommended, it's easy to slip off when working at funny angles. The engine and trans separated with no problem. It was a bit tricky to get the correct angle to get it out. I'm going to pick up a load leveler before installing the new engine (I had one, lent it to my brother in law and never saw it again). That will help in getting the correct angle for the install. Now I have to start swapping parts over to the new engine. Gotta buy some new stuff: fuel and tranny cooler hose, hose clamps, and an exhaust gasket. I'm going to replace my radiator (it seems partially clogged and the bleed screw is stripped) and my battery (it's 7 years old!) because they are out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearlm30 Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Thanks a lot for the updates, Ron! Can you take some pictures along the way? Also what is the load leverler? Ive never hear of that before:rolleyes: ? Do you mount the bad engine on a engine stand? Or you just going to let it hang on the engine crane while you take all the necessary parts for the swap? Thanks again The engine is out! It was a lot of work, but nothing terribly difficult. The worst part of this project so far is that I had to clean out the garage to get the car in. I took the intake manifold off before removing the engine. They crammed a LOT of stuff under there. They guys who built it obviously have very small hands. Undoing some of those connectors and hoses was tricky. But, it had to come off eventually and it makes it much easier to reach the torque converter/drive plate bolts. The torque converter stayed put, I measured the "stickout" and it meets the spec in the manual. When I was removing the torque converter/drive plate bolts, I stuffed a rag into the access hole to avoid dropping the bolts inside. The FSM didn't mention it, but the starter had to come off. Its flange prevented me from getting a wrench on one of the engine/transmission bolts (second from the top on the driver's side). It was only two wires and one more nut to get off, since its top mounting bolt does double-duty as an engine/trans bolt. The lowest driver side engine/trans nut was the trickiest. My 1/2" flex handle and 14mm socket barely fit behind the DOJ, but it did the trick. A 3/8" flex handle would fit better. A 6 point socket is highly recommended, it's easy to slip off when working at funny angles. The engine and trans separated with no problem. It was a bit tricky to get the correct angle to get it out. I'm going to pick up a load leveler before installing the new engine (I had one, lent it to my brother in law and never saw it again). That will help in getting the correct angle for the install. Now I have to start swapping parts over to the new engine. Gotta buy some new stuff: fuel and tranny cooler hose, hose clamps, and an exhaust gasket. I'm going to replace my radiator (it seems partially clogged and the bleed screw is stripped) and my battery (it's 7 years old!) because they are out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 Also what is the load leverler? Check this out:http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=5402 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 Thanks a lot for the updates, Ron! Can you take some pictures along the way? Also what is the load leverler? Ive never hear of that before:rolleyes: ?Do you mount the bad engine on a engine stand? Or you just going to let it hang on the engine crane while you take all the necessary parts for the swap? Thanks again Sorry, no pics, except for one my wife snapped of my son and me standing next to the engine as it dangled from the crane. Porcupine answered the load leveler question. Mine is similar to the HF one - bought it at Advance Auto for $35. I removed the drive plate from the old engine while it was hanging on the crane, then mounted it to a stand. I bought 4 bolts and washers so I could leave the old engine on the stand without using the engine/trans bolts needed to install the new one. The bolts are M10-1.25. 80mm long worked with my stand, you may need a different length depending on your engine stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted November 10, 2006 Author Share Posted November 10, 2006 HINT: make SURE that the motor mounts are installed correctly before trying to drop your new engine in! It took about 15 minutes to get the new engine lined up with the tranny and bolted together. By pure luck, the torque converter and drive plate bolt holes lined up exactly! When we tried to lower the engine down onto the cross member, I discovered that I had installed one of the motor mounts backward. It is possible to remove/replace the motor mount without removing the engine again. The Outback is high enough to do this without lifting the car, especially when the suspension is unloaded because the engine and tranny are raised up by a crane. However, it is much easier to install a motor mount in the proper orientation when the engine is out of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted November 11, 2006 Author Share Posted November 11, 2006 Note that a replacement engine may come with a coolant fitting for an oil cooler. My old engine had a plug in that spot. The fitting was just behind the oil filter on my CCR rebuilt. A call to CCR verified what it was, and that they leave them in the blocks that have them. They offered to send me a plug to replace it, but I was able to swap the plug over from my old engine. The plug needs a 14mm allen wrench, which is difficult to find in a store. I just happened to have one - it's one of the many things I found at the recycling center and brought home just because it might be useful some day. The coolant fitting came out of the new engine with a 24mm deep socket. There's sealer on it, so it was tough to turn, but the impact wrench made quick work of it. I put Permatex Ultra Grey on the plug when I installed it - hopefully, it seals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted November 26, 2006 Author Share Posted November 26, 2006 Finally got it all back together, and it runs! Thanks to all of you and this forum as whole for all of the great info and advice. My major worry now is making sure I get all of the air out of the cooling system. After filling the cooling system with the bleed screw open, I idled the car in my driveway, topping up the radiator several times. Then I put the rad cap on let it warm up until the fans came on and the thermostat opened (bottom radiator hose was warm). Let it cool, filled it up again, then went for a 5 mile drive. The temp gauge was normal the whole time. When I got back, the fans were running, the top radiator hose was hot, but the bottom one was cold. The heat was blowing hot. I let it idle for a few more minutes, and the fans stayed on the whole time, but the bottom radiator hose never got warm. Temp gauge stayed in the middle, it didn't overheat. I'm guessing there's still more air in there, so I'll try some more burping tomorrow. Note that the radiator is new. The engine came with a new water pump. The thermostat is geinuine Subaru, but it is not new (8 months, 12 K miles old). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svxpert Posted November 26, 2006 Share Posted November 26, 2006 <<My major worry now is making sure I get all of the air out of the cooling system. After filling the cooling system with the bleed screw open, I idled the car in my driveway, topping up the radiator several times.>> how did you fill the cooling system? which points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron917 Posted November 27, 2006 Author Share Posted November 27, 2006 how did you fill the cooling system? which points? I filled it through the radiator neck, with the radiator bleeder open. Took a long time. Several times, I put my thumb over the bleeder opening and squeezed the upper hose to help burp the air out. Today I parked on the steep part of my driveway, nose of the car up, and let it warm up with the radiator cap off. Got a lot of air out when the thermostat opened. Put the cap back on, and let it cool down for a couple of hours. It sucked coolant out of the overflow, and the level in the radiator looked fine. Drove around for about 25 miles at speeds up to 60 MPH, and all seems to be good with it now. Temp gauge doesn't rise above center, the lower rad hose gets warm, the heat is blowing hot, and the overflow level rises and falls as it should. I'll keep a close watch on the coolant and oil levels over the next few weeks. A search on the forum, which I should have done BEFORE I started filling the coolant, revealed a better way: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21681 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPX Posted November 27, 2006 Share Posted November 27, 2006 Glad to hear you found the air pocket and all is well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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