subyrally Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 bravo gary. but back onto topic, what you think an ea82 would put out with a simular set up to the ram performance ea81? that thing is nuts. this thread was back on topic.....doesn't have to be an argument. comments like "learn basic math" don't help us discuss. that's irrelevant and a cheap shot. kind of like if i replied "18 minus 16 is 2"...you're still in highschool. and "16-16 = 0", how many timing belts have you replaced on the side of the road?" meant to be funny, but you get the point, you don't have to discuss and make jabs at the same time. that turns discussions into debates or arguments. discussion is good, everyone trying to prove everyone else wrong is bad. all the question marks and wording of the question suggests others don't know what they are talking about. expect some sort of reply when that happens. this is really an argument over semantics and not the engines or anything else (most arguments are!). it's a circular discussion because both 'sides' are talking about something different. noone here is saying "EA82's and timing belts are unreliable". most familiar with the soob lines know the EA series motors are great, reliable engines. the fact is that "EA82's are less reliable than EA81's". the differences, numbers and stats are small in the automotive realm, but in the flying arena minor differences matter much. i've seen numerous frozen, shattered and broken timing pulley bearings...no biggie on a car, i would not want to be on a prop plane when that happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 there's one way to find out tim, get to it! given similar displacement and what we've seen from will, kevin and the other guys on here i would expect similar numbers (roughly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 bravo gary. but back onto topic, what you think an ea82 would put out with a simular set up to the ram performance ea81? that thing is nuts. The big thing with this motor I believe is flow.. Old EA81s had bad flow. Even my dual carb isn't that great looking. These heads from SUB4/RAM are about as good as I would expect those valves need. Even EA82t heads still share their same exhaust ports. Put electroinc ignition and MPFI on a EA82 with 4 port heads and you'd get the same number I believe. I can't see how with the same flow heads, same displacement, same cam lobes, same compression ratio, and same spinning weight (just about) you would get more power.. I reckon the pushrods would weigh less then the cam pullies and timming belts put together. GD, this isn't a biggest competition, put it away.. His young, I was the same. I knew it all, and everything. Just let him believe what he wants, he knows whats right for himself. Oh, and when I was younger (even just 2 years ago) saying all the things you said would just get me more nervy and really it's like your just asking for more "argument". Although, I would like someone to explain to me how t-belts could be anywhere as near reliable as pushrods, and have proof to back it up. I wouldn't think a aeroplane engine manufacturer would go to all that trouble making a great EA81 if the EA82 plate form is better... Would they? As all things need, Proof! EDIT: How would have thought this picture could of been so dangerous 'ay Jibs...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Headgaskets? For Ea-82T... I know i can get them from cometic easy.... but what about RAM?? Cometic will adjust the gaskets to make my comp ratio either higher or lower... will Ram do the same? I find it hard to navigate there site when im looking for specialty EA-82 parts! and what have ive done... lots of little things... I have replaced Tbelts and am about to do the same to my Brother in laws Gl... And check out RS25 to see what we are working on at the moment... were busy doing an Ej257 shortblock swap with RS heads and a big T04s.... hehe... the inlet is bigger than my turbo... But back to action.. anyways theres pics on there look under... project ringland if you really want to... but I was being a dork on his forum... I like making stupid comments about his car... if you all must see that is.... nothing amazing but fun none the less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodaka Rider Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Headgaskets? For Ea-82T... I know i can get them from cometic easy.... but what about RAM?? Cometic will adjust the gaskets to make my comp ratio either higher or lower... will Ram do the same? Ahem...http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=61824&highlight=cometic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 ...given similar displacement and what we've seen from will, kevin and the other guys on here i would expect similar numbers (roughly). +1. Functionally identical block, assuming equivalently modified head design, equivalent intake and exhaust design, and equivalent max RPM... roughly similar power. The theoretical advantage that overhead cams give is better valve timing accuracy at high engine speeds; the EA81's pushrods are short enough, and the rocker arms and shafts are well enough designed, that this advantage evaporates in the real world (RAM's EA81s are rated to around 9krpm). Why have the complexity of OHC and the additional failure points of timing belts when nothing is to be gained from it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 The theoretical advantage that overhead cams give is better valve timing accuracy at high engine speeds. The EA81's pushrods are short enough, and the rocker arms and shafts are well enough designed, that this advantage evaporates in the real world (RAM's EA81s are rated to around 9krpm). Well - that's partially correct, but as you pointed out for me, in the real world this particular advantage evaporates. And with modern alloys for the cams, roller rockers, SS valves, and heavy springs it evaporates even more. The BIG (and I'm talking HUGE) win with the OHC design is the ability to run multiple valves inside of odd-shaped cylinder heads. Such as a multi-valve hemispherical or hexahedral head. The other big win is the multiple cam profiles that can be run (think Hondar V-Tech), and 3D cam profiles as used by some of the more exotic Ferrari plants, etc. But - as NONE of these advantages are even remotely exploited by the EA82, it's a loseing situation. The OHC's make the engine wider, heavier, more complex, and less reliable - all for zilch in return benefits. If it had multiple intake valves, and dual intake/exhaust ports with hexahedral chambers.... THEN it would be a huge win. You would be looking at a 200+ HP engine no question. But at the end of the day none of these exist and there's no drive to produce these items when EJ's are so cheap and better designed. Oh yeah - Cometic. HAHAHAHA. Try calling them smart-a$$. 500 units minimum order. Got a spare $20k on ya? GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Ahem...http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=61824&highlight=cometic yeah, that one has been beat to death, then beat some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 ...The BIG (and I'm talking HUGE) win with the OHC design is the ability to run multiple valves inside of odd-shaped cylinder heads. Such as a multi-valve hemispherical or hexahedral head. The other big win is the multiple cam profiles that can be run (think Hondar V-Tech), and 3D cam profiles as used by some of the more exotic Ferrari plants, etc... Agreed, again to a point : Much of the "standard" valve arrangement and cam timing tricks can and have been done with pushrods. "Hemi"s are pretty simple with pushrods. Honda MC did a 4-valve/pentroof chamber in the 80's with pushrods (11K redline, IIRC). Almost anything can be done if desired; just most of the truly exotic stuff only benefits a tightly spun up engine where airflow becomes hyper-critical. (What was it... the Honda NSX bike engine that had 8-valves per cylinder and oval pistons, redline around 22k? And that was at least 10 years ago...) IMHO, though, the truly best thing is a no-cam design, that uses electronically controlled hydraulic or pneumatic valve actuators; total control... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Oh yeah - Cometic. HAHAHAHA. Try calling them smart-a$$. 500 units minimum order. Got a spare $20k on ya? GD I already know that if i send them my old gasket then they will make one for me with the spec that I want...... Someone must of had a bad day at cometic.... that number is rediculous!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodaka Rider Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Sweet, well order a set for me, too. Stock thickness. I'll even pay you a finder's fee for being the first person to get a set out of Cometic without any hassle. In fact, I'm sure there's three or four others here who would do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I already know that if i send them my old gasket then they will make one for me with the spec that I want...... Someone must of had a bad day at cometic.... that number is rediculous!!! That would be great if it was just someone with a bad day. If you can get them at a reasonable price then you just need to figure out some studs for em. The bolts can't put down the torque that the MLM gaskets will require, so studs need to be aquired. Problem is the size is really strange, and ARP wants your first born for a set. You might tap them over to a larger non-metric size, but I think someone looked into that as well. Anyway, after it's all paid for you could have bough an EJ257 front clip and have it installed..... so what's the point? GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 You might tap them over to a larger non-metric size, but I think someone looked into that as well. Couldn't you just get some of the over sized imperial studs/bolts, chuck them through a layth, cut the metric thread on them and woptido!? How long are the studs? I might see if I can get a price on them here in Australia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Couldn't you just get some of the over sized imperial studs/bolts, chuck them through a layth, cut the metric thread on them and woptido!? How long are the studs? I might see if I can get a price on them here in Australia... They are VERY hard to cut threads on. The studs are a tool-quality steel and don't lend themselves to cutting once they are tempered. If you use a lesser grade it could stretch when heated and there goes your clamping force. As for length - ask WJM - I'm sure he knows. Shorter than the EA81 studs IIRC. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 They are VERY hard to cut threads on. The studs are a tool-quality steel and don't lend themselves to cutting once they are tempered. If you use a lesser grade it could stretch when heated and there goes your clamping force. GD So you think even cutting them on the lathe wouldn't work that well? hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 So you think even cutting them on the lathe wouldn't work that well? hmm... It could be done, I'm sure. But not many of us with lathes.... GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 It could be done, I'm sure. But not many of us with lathes.... GD True, I always forget that.. I'm just lucky I guess. Now I gotta figure out how to use it properly, that's what grandpa's for ahah. Next on the shopping list is a milling machine, that will only cost around $2k How far off topic do you think the last 5 pages have been from the original post? haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 wasnt some one saying that arp had studs that would fit bundled with a set for something like a mitsubishi evo or something? i thought i heard someone say that part of that set and part of the set for a wrx would work, but maybe i missed some info on that. im not saying it will work, just asking if anyone heard that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I love ARP stuff... its so fun sliding the nut up and down the studs... there so smooth!!!! My Bro in law bought them for his built to the hilt EJ-257 I Wish the 2.5 RS heads or even the 2.2 would fit onto the EA-82 block... it would be an interesting and sweet swap... then everyone would have there dual valves!!! and I could buy borla headers for it YAY! or.. make my own... Anyone know if anyone else makes custom forged pistons for these??? I saw a dunebuggy website... they were unreal... there prices that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahDL88 Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 then everyone would have there dual valves!!! Umm everyone already has dual valves, Its the EJ's that have Quad EJ heads on an EA block would be like polishing a turd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joostvdw Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Umm everyone already has dual valves, Its the EJ's that have Quad EJ heads on an EA block would be like polishing a turd. but that's the whole point of owning a 20 year old subaru or did I just step on someone heart :-p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 Umm everyone already has dual valves, Its the EJ's that have Quad EJ heads on an EA block would be like polishing a turd. Thank you.................................... I ment, supposing people understood, that you would have 4 valves instead of 2!!! when i said 2 valves i ment 2 intake and exhaust.. ill be more specific nextime! Even turds will look good with alittle elbow grease! They just wont smell good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted November 17, 2006 Share Posted November 17, 2006 I Wish the 2.5 RS heads or even the 2.2 would fit onto the EA-82 block... it would be an interesting and sweet swap... May I ask what is wrong with the EJ block? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshoup Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 Thank you.................................... I ment, supposing people understood, that you would have 4 valves instead of 2!!! when i said 2 valves i ment 2 intake and exhaust.. ill be more specific nextime!Even turds will look good with alittle elbow grease! They just wont smell good. With cars, you need to be as specific as possible. Remember, the Justy's have three valves per cylinder. Not three intake and exhaust per cylinder, but I seem to remember it being two intake and one exhaust, though I'm sure someone will correct me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 18, 2006 Share Posted November 18, 2006 May I ask what is wrong with the EJ block? i think he's saying it would be a nice and easy upgrade to the EA82 without doing a complete EJ swap which requires extensive wiring and computer work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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