SakoTGrimes Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Can you not simply weld up some custom motor mounts to fit your choice of engine and bolt them to the interior of a Subarus engine bay? As long as it fits, and you can get the engine to hook up to a transmission, can't you put any almost any engine into almost any car? I'm not talking about having a car that could pass for stock and be all perfect. Just as long as it would perform the most basic of car functions like going forward. If someone with welding skills wants to try I volunteer to donate my 5 banger diesel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 It's not that simple. First it has to fit. Here you deal with lots of variables - transverse or not, etc. And some engines are just NOT going to work with the subaru transaxle without serious machine shop work to the flywheel/clutch assembly. Next is engine/tranny mounts - if you have a welder and a torch not a huge deal to make something work usually. Now you have to figure out the fuel system - FI vs. carb have different requirements, and you are talking diesel which depends on more factors - what type of injection pump the deisel uses, etc. Electrical is another problem entirely. Then getting all the stuff to work - temp, oil pressure, etc. All these little headaches add up to a lot of time and energy..... a LOT. I spent an entire afternoon just designing new transmission mounts for my 4 speed in my wagon - and I wasn't even changing anything. Sure - technically almost any engine could be put in - if you want to spend a year of weekends doing it. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffast Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 wiring is a big headach not to mention motor mounts crossmembers deminsions i work at an auto parts store, helping people find the correct mounts when doing engine swaps is a huge pain in the rump roast not to mention the wiring, but it is doable it just takes forever edit: in case you couldn't tell i hate wireing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccrinc Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Theoretically, you can put any engine into any car....how easy or hard it is...well, that's another question entirely. As the saying goes, "Speed costs. How fast do you want to go?" Emily http://www.ccrengines.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 There is one more consideration, the strength of the body. Not all cars can handle a signifcant increase in torque witout the body twisting. This is well known back when ford pintos mustangII vegas and early sunfires were fitted with v-8s. Body twist can range from a slight anoyance, to cracking front and or rear windows, to permanitly twisting the body. Over time this will crack the chassis. The drivtrain components can maybe take an increase in power, but you have to pay the piper someplace, Componenets will have a shorter life. Balljoints and springs desighned for a 250 lb engine wil wear out alot faster waith a 300 lb engine. Then you need to put on bigger brakes.... nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 The problem with the engine bay in a subaru is that you have to fit both the engine and the transmission in there.... alot harder than the older v8 cars and such that have alot more room, and alot more room to modify it, because you've got like 6 feet to the back differential to absorb slop if the whole engine/transmission assembly doesn't quite sit the same place the old one did. A custom drive shaft is all you need, and that's easy and cheap. The subaru engine bay, if you want to use the subaru tranny (which I happen to like), isn't very long from front of the tranny to the radiator... that's why I'm looking at putting a 3 cylinder diesel in mine eventually -- to be short enough to fit behind the radiator. If you wanted to make a rwd subaru, it'd be alot easier, especially if you lifted it to get even more room, and people have done rediculous things, but that's not the point of a subaru, IMO. I wonder if you could use a toyota tercel tranny, because that's designed to run front wheel drive/4wd in a longitudinal design, with a inline four in front of it. Not quite sure how they do that though, as I've never paid attention to where the front axle stubs come out compared to the bell housing locations. They don't have high/low range either (although some have an extra low 1st gear that is available in 4wd that is like having low range) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukiru Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 why put anything non-subaru in?? most people go with subaru for 2 reasons.. boxer engines symmetrical AWD/4WD. anything else is just uncivilized.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
operose Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 anything else is just uncivilized.. this made me literally laugh out loud.. now all the people in the library think I'm even more insane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 this made me literally laugh out loud.. now all the people in the library think I'm even more insane thats ok we know better .............. (we know your insane) nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukiru Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 this made me literally laugh out loud.. now all the people in the library think I'm even more insane I do that all the time, lol!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burtonsnowman Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 WIRING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SakoTGrimes Posted November 20, 2006 Author Share Posted November 20, 2006 As good as Subaru engines are for daily driving and longevity, the short stroke boxer design and small displacement was a poor choice for off-road use. Why they didn't offer a diesel when everyone else did in the 80s, I have no idea. The engine I would most like to use is the Mercedes-Benz OM616 2.4 diesel four which makes like 62hp and not much more torque. A stock 5spd d/r would be awesome but I didn't think about how little space there is in there. I suppose a Toyota truck trans and axles would work with that engine, but that's one more non-Subaru thing I would have to rig up. I'll figure something out, it's my intention to to a lot of mods to my next Subaru before I even drive it anyway. And, I see no reason why oil pressure, amps and cooling would be an issue, those things are connected to the engine itself and have little to do with what vehicle it's in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88HatchMonster Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 As good as Subaru engines are for daily driving and longevity, the short stroke boxer design and small displacement was a poor choice for off-road use. Lack of lower gearing options, lack of real lockers, limited susp. travel, these things hurt subies as far as being hard-core ORVs. I think the engines on the other hand (EJs especially) are potentially great for off-road use and abuse. Very respectable HP and torque, light weight, reliable, fuel injected... I don't see a problem with the engines, rather the above mentioned drivetrain issues. Oh and wiring's easier than you think guys! Just gotta resist the urge to cut all the wires and figure out what they do later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Why they didn't offer a diesel when everyone else did in the 80s, I have no idea. Well, to be fair, not EVERYONE else did. Honda never did, and the US offerings (that weren't made in Japan) were pretty bad to begin with and have served to shoot the diesel car market in the foot for the last 20 years. Remember the GM 5.7 diesel? And as I understand it, with a diesel there are certain advantages to an inline design compared to a V or HO design as well. I can't remember what these advantages are right now..., but do remember hearing this, and there is the fact that the International straight 6 diesels and the cummins diesels are liked alot better than the V-8 chevy and ford (international) diesels for full size trucks. Actually the 6 cylinder international is just too big for even a 1 ton pickup, so ironically, they use the V8 in them. Anyway, I wonder if that's why Subaru didn't do it, because they were so into the horizontally opposed engine design (which in general I agree is a great design). And wiring-wise, swapping a diesel (older one at least) is rediculously easy. Two wires to hook up -- fuel solinoid, and starter solinoid. I did this in a VW GTI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 There is one more consideration, the strength of the body. Not all cars can handle a signifcant increase in torque witout the body twisting. This is well known back when ford pintos mustangII vegas and early sunfires were fitted with v-8s. Body twist can range from a slight anoyance, to cracking front and or rear windows, to permanitly twisting the body. Over time this will crack the chassis. The drivtrain components can maybe take an increase in power, but you have to pay the piper someplace, Componenets will have a shorter life. Balljoints and springs desighned for a 250 lb engine wil wear out alot faster waith a 300 lb engine. Then you need to put on bigger brakes.... nipper Nail on the head. Wiring, cooling, and fitment issues are the obvious ones... THIS is the crucial part of it. I am a bigtime Datsun Z-car guy (240/260/280Z no X, seventies only thanks..) and people have been stuffing smallblocks (AND big blocks!!) into them forever.. but then they have to take the ~500 pound driveline out, replace it with a ~800 pound driveline, and weld about 400 pounds of steel underneath it to stiffen the chassis. Im sure the chassis stiffening could be done more weight-economically... but that requires UBER-engineering... So, yah, you start with the Japanese corvette, stuff an american corvette engine in it, add 1000 pounds, and suddenly youve got a 3300 pound car (dry) powered by a corvette powerplant.... why not just buy the plastic pig in the first place and get it over with? the primary advantage of these little jap cars is one thing only: low weight. that LS-1 powered Zcar sure could beat mine in a striahgt line (16s vs 14s, easy....) but when its time to turn, even with my antiquated brakes and manual steering... he is pigeonholed on the outside, trying to run the only line around that apex he can actually pull off without slinging his heavy tailend around... and i just hug the inside until its time to break off and set up the next apex. Oh hey, look, hes catching up real quick.. until he starts braking 30 feet before I do, and doesnt start the accel until im already shifting into third and dusted him by four car lengths, high up in the powerband, and just gone. It works fine! IF it is your thing. promary concerns are weight additions necessary. if your not going to install a motor that has gobs more torque and HP, then these issues fade.. but if they havent been brought to your attention yet, ponder it. Personally, if you can make a powerplant go into a car it was never intended to be in, im all for it. I want an old Aries/Reliant K to drop and SRT-4 driveline in with ultra quiet exhaust... it just doenst get any sleepier than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Wiring, cooling, and all that take a lot of time but are doable. What I see as the major hurdle to swaps in a Subaru is that the odd design of the Subaru engine and transmission leaves very little room for different engine configurations. Even fitting a small four cylinder inline engine would be difficult because of the height increase. I remember seeing a brat at WCSS6 with a Chevy 2.8 v6, and it was lifted sky-high to maintain decent ground clearance with that engine in there. BTW: My understanding is that the main advantage to the 6 cylinder inline engine is that inline engines (not just diesels) with multiples of 3 cylinders are naturally counterbalanced. I believe that the 6 cylinder engines are slightly better so than the 3 cylinder ones, but I'm not sure about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 International straight 6 diesels and the cummins diesels are liked alot better than the V-8 chevy and ford (international) diesels for full size trucks. From stuff I picked up here and there, I think the International & Cummins are more rugged & reliable than the V8s. They were designed as Diesels from the ground up, not converted from existing gas designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Wiring, cooling, and all that take a lot of time but are doable. What I see as the major hurdle to swaps in a Subaru is that the odd design of the Subaru engine and transmission leaves very little room for different engine configurations. Even fitting a small four cylinder inline engine would be difficult because of the height increase. I remember seeing a brat at WCSS6 with a Chevy 2.8 v6, and it was lifted sky-high to maintain decent ground clearance with that engine in there. BTW: My understanding is that the main advantage to the 6 cylinder inline engine is that inline engines (not just diesels) with multiples of 3 cylinders are naturally counterbalanced. I believe that the 6 cylinder engines are slightly better so than the 3 cylinder ones, but I'm not sure about that. er um... no 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 are easily balanced ( one up one down) 3 is not and usually use a counterbalance shaft or some sort of weight to make them smooth. Only GM made the colassal mistake of converting gas engines to deisel. Everyone else on the planet had the good sense to start from scratch. The only thing that MAY be common is the block casting. As far as fitting anything else under the hood, it isnt going to work easily. The subaru engines overall height is far lower then any V or inline engine. Also goiuing to a non oppsed engine witll generally drastically change the handling, as the car would be nose heavy. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Yep. anything can be done with a welder, some time, patience, and cash. the biggest thing to consider about doing an engine swap into a subaru, is the size of the motor. There's nothing else in the world as short (both in height and length) as a boxer. if you want to use a subaru transaxle (ignore for a moment, the bellhousing differences), the entire motor will have to be in front of the front axle. this will make for some seriously crappy approach angles, and weight distribution. Or, go divorced tcase (which would simplify the bellhousing issue), and mount a diff under the motor. but if you're going to that much trouble, why do you need a deisel? the only advantage I see would be the lo end torque, but if you're putting in a divorced tcase, you'll have some nice, low gears to work with... or go RWD....but then, what's the point? go buy a pinto or something... as far as offroading a subaru goes, the motor is the last thing on a long list of shortcomings. and an EJ motor is a very easy upgrade, and has gobs of torque. and the EJ22 is, quite possibly, the most bulletproof motor ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Haven't read the whole thread, but I'm sorta gonna agree with Sako here. Subaru would do a lot better with a diesel engine. I have driven a yota with a 3L turbo diesel and there is no other engine I would like to have in a 1700kg car, well maybe a Lambo 5.7L v12 would be nice, but you know what I mean. It almost has to much torque. It pulls up anything in high range. It's amazing. And it drives awesome onroad because of the diesel. You can almost drive it like a normal car. Take it to 3500RPM, it's just awsome. I'm ok with gearing on my roo with the 27" tires. Anything more and I can see that even a diesel wouldn't help a lot. If you don't want to keep 4WD/AWD, it's easy to put a different engine in I reckon. Move the trans backwards, and plenty of room for a new engine. But really, why buy a subaru if you want to do that. It's not like they have good suspension or anytihng. What would be a interesting swap would be a boxer motor from something else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Only GM made the colassal mistake of converting gas engines to deisel. Everyone else on the planet had the good sense to start from scratch. Not entirely true. The 6.2 and the 6.5 turbo are really not that bad. Properly maintained they need rebuilds about every 200k..... which for a diesel isn't great, but it's not THAT bad. There's far worse designs out there. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 What would be a interesting swap would be a boxer motor from something else... Who else makes a boxer engine? VW, porsche? I don't know about porsches design, but alot of people replace the VW ones with EJ22's, so it seems like the subaru is superior engineering. I guess there are the new horizontally opposed diesel airplane engines from that place in UK -- I wouldn't mind one of those, though the price is way steep... Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 Who else makes a boxer engine? VW, porsche? I don't know about porsches design, but alot of people replace the VW ones with EJ22's, so it seems like the subaru is superior engineering. I guess there are the new horizontally opposed diesel airplane engines from that place in UK -- I wouldn't mind one of those, though the price is way steep... Z corvair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted November 22, 2006 Share Posted November 22, 2006 corvair Ah, forgot about those. Were those 6 cylinder opposed, or were they 4? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SakoTGrimes Posted November 22, 2006 Author Share Posted November 22, 2006 Ah, forgot about those. Were those 6 cylinder opposed, or were they 4? both. and air cooled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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