making a vibrationless 4x4 wagon

[bgd73]

I am frustrated...

I do not know where to begin this chore. I want my wagon for long highway trips very precisely comfortable.

I even think the driveshaft has a wobble. I am certain of 2 rear hubs repulsively shot- I do not even want to think of the previous owners comfort while driving above 55. I need an expert advice. No grind from bearings yet- but have had this hoax me before into thinking they were ok. The wheels and tires are all the same and balanced well, they came off my very smooth riding sedan and they are painted, do not like to attract sticky things (like mud chunks, etc) that make them out of balance. Can the driveshaft cause the "wa wa" elongated noise at 55 and above? My other 87 did this and I literally gave up, could not decipher it.I even changed the driveshaft in my other 87 and it did nothing but fix the reason for changing.. So I am concluding it to be something else. Axles, hubs or bearings, or all three. The struts and spring combo could take alot of weight, very stiffly.

Here is what it does

• Sometimes at slow speed to very slow, you can feel a wobble that moves the back end around. Most of the time it doesn't.checks: Torques of everything, free spun rear by hand. Could not visibly find anything wrong, and it even spun straight, including driveshaft.I even had both wheel wells open for repair (had holes big enough to see tire) and watched the tires up to 25mph- nothing abnormal visible
  
• On the highway: an elongated "waaa waaa" offset "circular" noise from front to back, then all the way around- almost a vibration. I put it into 4x4 to no avail.
  
• pressing brakes always without fail has a bad wobble from back end.

The advice needed is where to begin. What one fix would conquer most of it right away. The tires and wheels are good so far- that is all I have done. I must shamefully say- I have yet to be comfortable in a soob 4x4 wagon, my own or friends. Young and old ones. Do I just have bad luck or my butt too sensitive? My dad's tractor trailer is more comfortable than this bobtailing down a dirt road. I still can't complain about that little engine at 35+ mpg... Would like to keep it going, any advice apppreciated.

[NoahDL88]

From your symptoms all i can think of is a loose axle nut, or bad wheel bearings. Do the wheels move side to side?

[WoodsWagon]

The U-joints in the rear driveshaft can get stiff and make noise and vibration. You know the rear subframe from your 2wd will bolt right up? Get rid of all that stupid heavy, wobbly 4wd junk.

 

Try swaping the wheels out with spare ones and see if the noise goes away. You know, basic diagnosis of where the noise is from.

[daeron]

bgd: do you have a copy of the HTKYSA? it breaks down wheel wobbles and rear suspension issues, and how to pinpoint them, very well.....

 

is it possible that your noise is unrelated to the wobble? because the noise might almost be gearbox noise, either from the diff or the trans, and if that were the case then your wobble could likely be brake-related... and the noise could be relieved by renewing the gear oil...

 

just a couple thoughts, I'm probably wrong

[mikeshoup]

Could very well be a wheel bearing. If the wah wah sound is kind of a dull roar, it could be wheel bearings.

 

Definitely check the U-Joints on the drive shaft. My wagon had a snapped U-Joint on it when I bought it, and it would cause a weird vibration whether or not it was in 4WD.

[4x4_Welder]

Pull the rear brakes, and look for blue spots or scuff marks on the inside of the drums, maybe even take them to a shop and have them turned, or just replace them. The extra shaking while braking is a dead giveaway-

[GeneralDisorder]

My vote is for a partially frozen or badly worn u-joint. Brakeing turns the rear diff into an artificial LSD, and will make a bad u-joint vibrate more, and you will still feel it while not brakeing as well. He lives in rust territory, it's 20 years old, and the EA82 U's are not greaseable. I've had the serviceable u-joints of the EA81's freeze up even here on the left coast. At least with the EA81 they are easily replaceable. If they lose one degree of freedom they will still turn but will bind slightly causing the vibration.

 

The humming sound I would look at the front wheel bearings. They may not have any play, but often the outer bearing will rust and start to make that humming vibration noise. I've replaced quite a disturbing number of them.

 

GD

[joostvdw]

is the noise rpm related?

 

I ask because on my XT at about 3500rpm I have a resonance interior which makes a wa wa noise

 

but this "may" have something to do with my 2,5 inch open exhaust...

[bgd73]

You all have good ideas. I have an event here I often forget I call the "winter buzz-in". Everything steel does it, moving parts have a bit of noise sometimes until spring, even engines and exhaust systems that were once quiet in the driveway at high idle can be heard like a laser beam of sound bellowing off hills a mile+ away. It's bizarre.

I do not like this, as I have had cars that have things barely noticable in the cold and keep going fairly quietly.4x4's are especially difficult. I did notice on my 2wd sedan, changing bearings was exactly the answer. I found oem bearings did not pass the standard to survive, and now I have a 4wd that needs even tougher.A particular brand name "fedral mogul" had something slightly different and it worked. All it takes is thousands of an inch out of tolerance...The ujoints are great, the middle moves freely where driveshaft splits. The front end is no wobbles, handles great. Did find one loose axle nut- the only way for that to happen is not enough grease chomping what was tight into a sloppiness. It is very good now after repacking and retorquing. No creaks at all in turns anymore, so suspension and ball joints and overall tightness part of it is all good.

 

 

I slept on it to conclude the rear bearings first, even on what I think is bad hubs. Good hubs will bounce on an out of round bearing. The car has been sitting an undetermined amount of time. The soob just don't like that where I live.

Also, I took driver side rear apart, taking hub off- all looked normal no chunks missing, and yet again eveidence of hardly any grease. I repacked put it back together and sure enough that side I did this too is almost silent, no wobbles. One wobble anywhere from the back there is an attack all the way up the driveshaft after shaking the whole back end. All or nothing seems to be the way to go with these. It is actually fatiguing when it decides to bellow that perfect nuisance. Will start with bearings non-oem brand. Worked once, may do it again.

 

 

I was quite content yesterday with the thought of scrapping the whole rear 4wd setup for the 2wd- but it just wouldn't be what this car was made for. At best when all is good, the rear can make a slight whining noise and not bother people inside after running awhile in 4wd at high speed. I still considered it discomfort, but thats all I can work towards I guess, if to keep an old 4wd.

[WoodsWagon]

You all have good ideas. I have an event here I often forget I call the "winter buzz-in". Everything steel does it, moving parts have a bit of noise sometimes until spring, even engines and exhaust systems that were once quiet in the driveway at high idle can be heard like a laser beam of sound bellowing off hills a mile+ away. It's bizarre.

I do not like this, as I have had cars that have things barely noticable in the cold and keep going fairly quietly.4x4's are especially difficult.

 

This is crazy talk. The only thing remotely related is too thick oil and grease.

 

The ujoints are great, the middle moves freely where driveshaft splits.

 

take the rear driveshaft out, from the carrier bearing to the diff. it's 8 12mm nuts, not too hard. then swivel each joint independently. feel for any catches or binding.

 

 

I slept on it to conclude the rear bearings first, even on what I think is bad hubs. Good hubs will bounce on an out of round bearing.

Also, I took driver side rear apart, taking hub off- all looked normal no chunks missing, and yet again eveidence of hardly any grease. I repacked put it back together and sure enough that side I did this too is almost silent, no wobbles. One wobble anywhere from the back there is an attack all the way up the driveshaft after shaking the whole back end. All or nothing seems to be the way to go with these. It is actually fatiguing when it decides to bellow that perfect nuisance. Will start with bearings non-oem brand. Worked once, may do it again.

 

Why throw $100 worth of parts and a lot of labor at something you only *think* is the problem. Take the extra time to track the problem down. It's worth the savings.

[jonas]

u joints, cv's, and get your tires rebalanced and checked for seperation. my '84 wagon had same vibration prob. fixed those things now vibration is at a bare minimum. use "new" cv's, not the remans as that is why i think mine still has a slight vibration. when my remans wear out i will be putting virgin cv's on. GD has a link to an outfit to get those at i think. even if your u's seem fine, pull 'em. mine felt solid in the axle but when i pulled them they fell apart in my hand. was only $10.00 for new ones so a cheap fix.

[GeneralDisorder]

Why throw $100 worth of parts and a lot of labor at something you only *think* is the problem. Take the extra time to track the problem down. It's worth the savings.

 

We can only hope that it will break the bank and he will join a Toyota forum

 

Watch out for those meteor's - they are atracted to GL's ya know.

 

GD

[bgd73]

u joints, cv's, and get your tires rebalanced and checked for seperation. my '84 wagon had same vibration prob. fixed those things now vibration is at a bare minimum. use "new" cv's, not the remans as that is why i think mine still has a slight vibration. when my remans wear out i will be putting virgin cv's on. GD has a link to an outfit to get those at i think. even if your u's seem fine, pull 'em. mine felt solid in the axle but when i pulled them they fell apart in my hand. was only $10.00 for new ones so a cheap fix.

 

That is good idea.It is about all one can do. I just went for a ride, now above freezing (almost 50 f! its spring again ). The shuttering is minimal, the brakes at slow speed still have it- never under acceleration does it do this aside from a bit of noise cold, today silent. Will swap all according to what I budget, but it seems hubs and bearings is possible, will have to hang onto the axles/tires/wheels in it for now. They seem good, no clicking and bends.

 

 

If any of you folks have any idea what a real winter is, the prejudice about what steel in it does would stop. I am assuming your "stupid" to return the favor,when I get the ridiculous replies. From large rigs to rinky dink soobs, the steel does something in all of them- unlike the balmy northwest or japan for that matter (I know damn well they didn't account for serious cold in thier engineering). To mention again the soob I am dealing with is 20 years old is astonishing to see no fractures in firewall or a belly that dropped out from under it like I have done already to a SUBARU , just by existing.

Hubs and axles can bend just sitting in the car here.... any other comments?

[4x4_Welder]

 

If any of you folks have any idea what a real winter is, the prejudice about what steel in it does would stop. I am assuming your "stupid" to return the favor,when I get the ridiculous replies. From large rigs to rinky dink soobs, the steel does something in all of them- unlike the balmy northwest or japan for that matter (I know damn well they didn't account for serious cold in thier engineering). To mention again the soob I am dealing with is 20 years old is astonishing to see no fractures in firewall or a belly that dropped out from under it like I have done already to a SUBARU , just by existing.

Hubs and axles can bend just sitting in the car here.... any other comments?

 

Huh? I lived outside Augusta for 17 years. Subarus used to be -the- car to have there, they handled the snow and cold way better than anything else. Of course, once traction control, ABS, and real snow tires started coming onto the scene, the playing field was leveled a bit.

But seriously, check the brakes. No point in saying that's not the problem unless you actually go in there and can say for sure there isn't an issue with the brakes.

[WoodsWagon]

If any of you folks have any idea what a real winter is, the prejudice about what steel in it does would stop. I am assuming your "stupid" to return the favor,when I get the ridiculous replies. From large rigs to rinky dink soobs, the steel does something in all of them- unlike the balmy northwest or japan for that matter (I know damn well they didn't account for serious cold in thier engineering). To mention again the soob I am dealing with is 20 years old is astonishing to see no fractures in firewall or a belly that dropped out from under it like I have done already to a SUBARU , just by existing.

Hubs and axles can bend just sitting in the car here.... any other comments?

 

You're in maine. I'm sorry, but any winter you have there isn't extreem. We have a number of canadian guys running around, and a lot of them aren't near the coast, so no gulf stream effect. They don't complain about their subies warping in the winter. So yes, I think you're stupid to belive that the molecular structure of the steel is altered so much by the cold that it warps.

 

Explain to me why loaders built in the midwest work fine down in antartica. The extreem winter there would warp the parts soo bad there that the loaders wouldn't move acording to you.

 

I thought that you were saying it was the "invisibles" that were corroding your subaru's, not the cold. Or that nasty salt that maine's highway departments like to use.

 

Wasn't the rear driveshaft the balancing thing that made the power flow to the ground better than the lack of one in your two wheel drive cars? Didn't you have some crackpot theory about that? Now you're complaining that it wobbles the car?

 

Seriously, you spread nonsense theories around the board like they were gospel. It's confusing to people who don't know enough to ignore you. If something seems like a new "discovery" to you, don't bother posting it.

 

 

I usually try not to be a jerk, but I've watched your threads for too long and it's gone too far.

[jonas]

after re-reading your first post i am pretty certain it's your u-joints that are the main problem.

[GeneralDisorder]

I usually try not to be a jerk, but I've watched your threads for too long and it's gone too far.

 

Thank God! I'm not alone afterall.

 

Maine? Surely you jest.... your winters are nothing to write home about pal. Try Korea on for size. And I don't care if it's 100 below zero, the axles are not going to "Bend". You are full of i$ht, and you have been since you started posting here. Lay off the pharms man.

 

GD

[brianbarber]

I live in Eastern Ontario, an hour north of Massena, NY, and it gets nasty cold here. I grew up in Northwestern Ontario (due north from Minnesota), and it's much nastier. I have to admit that the cold does funny things to cars, but I've never seen axles warp. The square tires thing is common; my brother had to use a crowbar to open his doors; and, we even had our cars freeze so bad that they wouldn't start even with the block heaters going.

 

Just to add some humour... I just bought my first Subaru a few months ago, and when I took my kid for a ride, the first question was, "Daddy, why does your car sound like the school bus?"

 

BB

[bgd73]

Thank God! I'm not alone afterall.

Maine? Surely you jest.... your winters are nothing to write home about pal. Try Korea on for size. And I don't care if it's 100 below zero, the axles are not going to "Bend". You are full of i$ht, and you have been since you started posting here. Lay off the pharms man.

 

GD

 

I have sincerely had enough out of you. I am either done here at usmb or finding a way to ignore you. You don't know maine, you don't know me or my skills (especially mechanical- with a real miltary history to back it up). I would swear I've got at least a decade on you as well mentally to say the least. And the story about your missile mechanic skills in the military is not showing here, especially communication. This is derogatory from you again and again and again to say the least. I learned what a flame was in 1987- on a first of usable pc's for dummies I don't want to mention. What some of you do here, especially you GD is beyond a "newsgroup flame", with no facts and it really bothers me.

 

You aren't even worth mentioning what I do by nature. The subject of old Subarus is really good for me here, you aren't (GD). I have even aplogozed for something you did... enough is enough I say no more. Time for factual action just by looking at some of your replies, and some of them have truly hurt (I am not joking) .I took and take some of your advice- which is always without a doubt already thought of and dismantled btw, and accept everything stated- without the degradation in reply. If I am somehow regarded a reverse accusation about this final talk of this- I will go as far as legal action. I had a similar case of this in a chatroom that I ran years ago- there really is rules and even laws, starting with an open minded moderator

[GeneralDisorder]

You don't know maine.

 

I know the climate well - I was stationed in Maryland durring winter, and traveled to New York, etc. Besides that I've seen winter in Korea with -40 temps.

 

you don't know me or my skills (especially mechanical- with a real miltary history to back it up). I would swear I've got at least a decade on you as well mentally to say the least.

 

You are 6 years older than me - hardly a decade, and I've been wrenching since I could hold one. Most especially I've owned and operated far more subaru's than you. Regardless, temps cold enough to change the molecular structure of steel are in the cryogenic range, which STARTS at -238 degrees below zero. Cold enough to freeze the water in your toilet, not to mention the blood in your viens.

 

I'm not the only one that's annoyed by your ranting, word-salad posts, and your inability to learn anything from the educated, and well-worded members here (but I may be the loudest ). You disregard everyone's opinion but your own, and your posts are basically about "look how I fixed this and none of you knew what was wrong!". We don't want to hear about you fixing things that: don't exist/aren't broken/have nothing to do with the problem. Either learn the correct terminology and take some classes on basic theory, or go away.

 

Seriously - do you see me being a huge rump roast to anyone else? Definately not to this degree anyway. A LOT of people are sick of it. I have tried to help you, and it goes no where. I can't see a logical process you are taking to solve problems. What you do is almost akin to reading chicken bones, and making voodoo dolls. Sorry, but this isn't the way we solve problems in the age of science.

 

GD

[4x4_Welder]

Both of you guys ought to go to your corners and cool off-

 

Seriously, a mechanic or engineer in one field does not make you a mechanic or engineer in all fields. My uncle was an aircraft mechanic in the USAF, but couldn't wrench on cars to save his life. The stresses needed to bend an axle and cause the issues you describe would cause severe damage to the structure of the car first.

On the subject of GD, though, he says in his tag line that he is an rump roast, so take what he says with a grain of salt. Nobody here is out to get you, or going out of their way to insult you. You tell us you have a problem, and what you think it is, without anything to back it up, and immedietely shoot down all suggestions given by experienced people as to what it could be. Show me a bent axle causing these problems and I'll believe you.

 

And GD, you are an rump roast

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah - I know

 

Well said BTW. I can be less than tactful at times... thus my tag.

 

Now that I've dragged the carcass out to the pen, I'll let you dogs chew it up

 

GD

[jeffast]

 

I usually try not to be a jerk, but I've watched your threads for too long and it's gone too far.

Thank God! I'm not alone afterall.

 

Maine? Surely you jest.... your winters are nothing to write home about pal. Try Korea on for size. And I don't care if it's 100 below zero, the axles are not going to "Bend". You are full of i$ht, and you have been since you started posting here. Lay off the pharms man.

 

GD

i have to agree i come here to help people with cars and get help with mine not here how you are god that any subaru engine not ea82 is a pos, and here some bs theory about some nonexistant force, you have contributed some small amounts of useable information i liked your writeup on rust hole repair aside from that i wish you would shut the hell up allot of the time. serously trouble shoot before posting it here for the love of god check your driveshaft

[WoodsWagon]

I took a quick tour of your website. You remind me very much of Butch, my high school janitor. He believed in all sorts of crackpot technologies and aliens too. Dead serious when he was talking about more efficient than perpetual motion generators.

 

Seeing as you don't have a problem pirating pictures off the USMB for your website, I'll do some quick copy and paste from yours.

 

The alkalinic stuff on the wheel stud showed up a week or so after painting. The paint conquered what I knew was happening. It takes years to do strange things like this, sometimes not even metal fatigue is the cause. The paint also kept rotors ,hubs, bearings and axles cooler, of course increasing strength to keep straight wheels, rotors and hubs, increasing the life of everything attached. What I have learned with this, can be applied to any vehicle with steel wheels, diesel, gas, little to big. It can happen to all of them

 

Battery cable to starter is unregulated. Everything that battery you have has got is given to the starter when you turn the key, or however some of you may be starting the car. I just swapped a large battery out on soob #3 (my 87), and got same results as the other two. The correct battery stops the brushes in the starter from getting too much. Too much is a "bleed" of electricity into inefficient, actually taking away the motion the engine wants to turn, hence actually slowing it down. Another problem is the charge system itself. The alternator is designed for a certain amount of give for the power expected to be drained, with engineered numbers I have never exactly figured out. The correct Amps from battery size, returns a correct charge

 

Tough paint equals tougher steel. Some do not like this approach, but where I live, even adding a few rivets to a 4wd wagon was a tremendous strengthener. To add tough paint all over makes a different car entirely.

 

As an example, if the spark plugs on your carbed ea82 at 9 to 1 were to be installed without washers (not recommended) , the carbed engine could very well have a higher compression ratio than an spfi ea82 at 9.5 to 1.

 

90% of the above copy and pasted material is complete BS.

Oh, and front quarter panel's don't change allignment throught the strength in their forming.

 

Please DO leave. The misinformation you spread reduces the validity and value of the real information other's provide. This forum is for helping and educating people, not confusing the heck out of them.

[GeneralDisorder]

Wow - that's totally hilarious! Anyone follow Penn & Teller Bu||Sh|t on Showtime??? They need to interview Bdg in a BAD WAY.

 

The Janitor reference is priceless. I think we all had a dude like that in HS. "Crackpot" is an understatement. People who clean up puke and food-fights have to make themselves beleive they are somewhere else all day I guess.

 

I can't WAIT for the "legal action" against me . People's court anyone? HAHAHAHAHA.

 

GD