The WTF is wrong with my wagon thread

[GoldDiggerRoo]

Rather than have a million posts for each problem I'm having with the wagon I figured I'd just start one, include all the info about what is going on with it and let you guys be the judge and hopefully I'll get this thing straigtened out before the engine goes kablooey.

 

The car: 1987 GL10 Turbo Wagon, 3spd Auto, push button 4WD, no rear cat.

 

Ok, when I first bought the car it had a slight miss to it; ran as well as an N/A car when the turbo spooled( still missed though), but pretty crappy otherwise. I figured fouled plugs.. ya know, tune up should take care of it, after all the guy selling it said the issue had developed after sitting for a few months while he was trying to sell it. So after replacing the water pump it needed I decided to do some routine tune-up things and take car of that darn miss. So I did plugs, wires, cleaned the MAF (hot wire type) but this did not alleviate the problem. A few days later the car started throwing a CEL light at me, and the first night it happened the car suddenly started to fun great, like it should... even though it had the CEL. The proper running lasted for roughly a day and a half until I was on my way to work, car started running bad again (same miss) and the CEL went out. Later in the same day the CEL returned, but alas the car never went back to running ok, just the same consistant miss that causes me to limp up hills @ 15MPH.

 

After replacing all of the smaller dia. vaccum lines on the engine and the broken purge control solenoid with no improvement. The car also began suddenly and for no reason pouring black smoke from the exaust, dying and not wanting to start after, most times it didn't get this bad and I would just have to floor it to start the car when it was warm. I checked the ECU for codes and got a code 21, coolant temp sensor or circut. I pulled the connector for the coolant temp sensor, cleaned off the corosion on the plug, soldered the wire back on my aux. air valve and reset the ECU, no CEL this time. The car idled better (but lower 750?rpm in park, 500? in gear) and didn't need to be floored to start anymore, but yet I still had the same nerve grinding miss.

 

On the advice of FrankB, whose thought was injectors, I pulled the plug wires off one at a time to see if if that would make a difference..... it did, on the passenger side rear cylinder (#3?). So I'm leaning to the miss being a bad injector, or a non firing one.... I haven't been able to check it with a noid light yet, because I do not own one and don't want to pay $20+ for a set for a bunch of others I don't need.

 

Tonight, on top of the cars normal missing it developed another issue, the car runs the same as it always has until you reach around 3/4 to WOT, around there the car starts to stumble and surge, kinda like it's being flooded or maybe starved for fuel (not sure which), if you hold it there the car will slow down to a crawl. The turbo still seems to spool fine, and was really the only thing keeping me able to drive the car, but now since I can't go much past half throttle without the car surging...... it's a bad scene altogether.... this is currently my only drivable car.... so as bad as it's running, I've got to try and drive it, I'm seriously afraid of hurting the engine though.

 

I'm also noticing a lot of gurgling swishing sounds coming from the thermostat/upper rad. hose/rad area after I cut the car off too.... not sure if this is normal with the EA82 or not.

 

Thanks in advance for any help provided, I really need this car to work, as it's my only option at this point.

[GeneralDisorder]

Gallon of gas and a match? Seriously tho, the EA82T's are a pain in the butt. Best thing is to get out from under it and get an SPFI or something. If it's not one thing, it's another with those T's. Especially so if you can't even afford $20 for a noid light. It's going to nickle and dime you into debt.... is it worth 25 HP?

 

GD

[mikeshoup]

The gurgling swishing sound is: you have air in your cooling system. You need to park the car with the nose up in the air, take the rad cap off, run the car, and once it warms up, the level should drop as air gets past the thermostat.

 

Seriously, bleeding the cooling system on these cars is a pita sometimes (especially on the XTs, what with their raking forward and all...)

[GoldDiggerRoo]

Gallon of gas and a match? Seriously tho, the EA82T's are a pain in the butt. Best thing is to get out from under it and get an SPFI or something. If it's not one thing, it's another with those T's. Especially so if you can't even afford $20 for a noid light. It's going to nickle and dime you into debt.... is it worth 25 HP?

 

GD

 

I'd love to but at this point I don't have a choice, I have to make it work..... I'm currently kinda unemployed and have sunken most of my money into this thing so I don't have to walk to and fro

[GoldDiggerRoo]

The gurgling swishing sound is: you have air in your cooling system. You need to park the car with the nose up in the air, take the rad cap off, run the car, and once it warms up, the level should drop as air gets past the thermostat.

 

Seriously, bleeding the cooling system on these cars is a pita sometimes (especially on the XTs, what with their raking forward and all...)

 

I kinda expected that, had heater hose issues earlier.

[jeffast]

Gallon of gas and a match? Seriously tho, the EA82T's are a pain in the butt. Best thing is to get out from under it and get an SPFI or something. If it's not one thing, it's another with those T's. Especially so if you can't even afford $20 for a noid light. It's going to nickle and dime you into debt.... is it worth 25 HP?

 

GD

gd many things i agree with you on but let's put dislike to the side and try to help him with his problems.

 

so nothing happend when you pulled off one of the injector wires, did you pull the injector and clean it i reccomend dipping it in some berryman's b12 chemtool drying it and repeat. if that doesn't work use a meter to verify that you have power to the injector then go to the junk yard and pull a few clean them and try yhem

[GeneralDisorder]

gd many things i agree with you on but let's put dislike to the side and try to help him with his problems.

 

No ill-intent here. I'm merely sugesting that it may be futile if he can't spend over $20. Jeez - just my OEM timing belt tensioners were $50 today.

 

Owning old cars can upset the bank account if you aren't careful. Turbo's especially.

 

GD

[GoldDiggerRoo]

gd many things i agree with you on but let's put dislike to the side and try to help him with his problems.

 

so nothing happend when you pulled off one of the injector wires, did you pull the injector and clean it i reccomend dipping it in some berryman's b12 chemtool drying it and repeat. if that doesn't work use a meter to verify that you have power to the injector then go to the junk yard and pull a few clean them and try yhem

 

Yeah, I lothe the EA82, but I really want this car to work, it's a great platform for what I want to do and I love the features it has, the miss is just a setback, or atleast I keep telling myself that......

 

I didn't pull off the injector wire itself, I pulled off the sparkplug wire going to that cyl. (that's what Frank recomended), made a huge difference on every one except that one, didn't change a thing with it off.

 

I'll try and pull the injector and clean it tomorrow, I'm also going to call a friend to see if he has a Noid light I can use for a few minutes.

 

As for junkyard injectors, I know that turbo Z injectors are upgrades, I have an '83 N/A 280zx sitting around..... could I maybe swap in one or four from that if the cleaning doesn't work?

 

This is my first fuelie subaru (not counting my RS) and one of the few MPFI cars I've owned, none of which I've done fuel system work on.... I'm slightly lost with this stuff.

 

I can afford the $20 for a noid light, but I'd rather not buy one to use rarely if I can borrow it, this is not my first old car.......just my one of the few new old cars I've had, I'd be doing much better with a carb.

[jeffast]

don't swap the injectors.!!!!!

if your already having problems upgrading is not a good idea also try remove the distributer cap check for carbon build up if there small lumps IGNORE THEM. check the rotor makesure there is little or no build up. this can also cause a miss

[GoldDiggerRoo]

don't swap the injectors.!!!!!

 

if your already having problems upgrading is not a good idea also try remove the distributer cap check for carbon build up if there small lumps IGNORE THEM. check the rotor makesure there is little or no build up. this can also cause a miss

 

The disty cap and rotor are good, and being that the issue went away for a while, I really don't think it's going to be a timing issue or anything related to spark, I'm getting great spark, both at the cap and at the plugs, the inital miss seems to be an injector issue, I could be wrong, but that's what I'm gonna try first. I'm really concerned with the WOT one the most right now.

[jeffast]

check your coolant temp sensor my six did the same thing i changed the plug and it's gone, i don't know where it is on a turbo though

[GoldDiggerRoo]

check your coolant temp sensor my six did the same thing i changed the plug and it's gone, i don't know where it is on a turbo though

 

I suppose it could still be bad, but it currently exhibits none of the the typical issues related to the coolant temp sensor being out, I had all of them before when I had the CEL and since cleaning up the connector I have had none of the hard starting issues associated with a bad CTS. If the injector doesn't return a positive result I'm going to replace that and the o2 sensor I guess.

 

I still don't have any of the proceedures on how to check the proper operation of the TPS and such, anyone have some scans or PDF of it for me? I'm looking to rule anything and everything out as the cause of this problem.

[Turbone]

Dont know if I missed it in your first post or not, but did you replace the fuel filter? Might try some injector cleaner just for the heck of it.

[GeneralDisorder]

Do you have a multi-meter? Might help to check the temp sensor resistance values and see if if changes at strange times. Also need one to check out the throttle posistion sensor. About $3.99 at harbor freight.

 

GD

[jeffast]

Do you have a multi-meter? Might help to check the temp sensor resistance values and see if if changes at strange times. Also need one to check out the throttle posistion sensor. About $3.99 at harbor freight.

 

GD

i hear the temp sensor doesn't go bad the big problem over on the xt-6.net is corrosion causes the computer to get a high resistance value and it thinks the car is over heating and goes into limp mode the surging is it getting an inconsistant reading and switching modes quickly. very common problem on sixes, but thats just my research on xt's don't know how it will apply to gl10's

[GoldDiggerRoo]

i hear the temp sensor doesn't go bad the big problem over on the xt-6.net is corrosion causes the computer to get a high resistance value and it thinks the car is over heating and goes into limp mode the surging is it getting an inconsistant reading and switching modes quickly. very common problem on sixes, but thats just my research on xt's don't know how it will apply to gl10's

 

Could be worth a shot, I'm openn to any ideas right now..... that's why I really want to check the TPS, being that the surge happens near WOT.

 

No, don't have a multi meter yet, I'll pick one up tomorrow, need some c clamps anyhow. I would need some advice on how to use/read the multi meter though.

 

Haven't done the fuel filter yet, will do soon (maybe tomorrow) I have run some FI cleaner thru it, doesn't seem to help.

[GoldDiggerRoo]

Ok, so I picked up a multi-meter and noid light set today, for $14..... much better than the $40 they would've cost at the parts store.

 

Haven't had a chance to use them yet, but the car is running better today.... still has the miss, but considerably better.... for now.

[Frank B]

Here's a link to Autozone's copy of the haynes manual. But it helps. Use the thottle body link to the right to see the testing of the TPS, and the rest of the components. The scroll down menu obove that gets you to the rest of the components.

 

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1c/65/02/0900823d801c6502.jsp

 

 

It sounds like the injector is sticking open, that would explain the crappy running at low speeds(too rich), black smoke(too rich), and great running at high rpm(turbo likes rich mixtures). I doubt cleaning it will help, it rarely does unless you have an ultrasonic cleaner??

[Syonyk]

http://www.cruzinperformance.com/ is a place that cleans injectors. The RX-7 guys love this place. He does the reverse flow ultrasonic cleaning & bench tests the injectors before/after.

 

-=Russ=-

[iluvdrt]

I had a problem like you. Spent over $2k trying to fix it. Ended up being the groud between the distributor and head. Basicall take the distributor out, and clean off the two mating surfaces, especially the head surface.

 

do a search for some of my "engine miss" threads.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=47735

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=45931

 

Also the ignitor grounds out to the body, sometimes they get corroded inbetween the two (body, and ignitor body) and you loose that ground. I would check those first.

[beataru]

I dont know if this will help but.. My car (when it had hewglymongous exhaust leaks) did the crappy when I floored it.... It would sumble... kinda like it was about to fall on its face... and then surge forth... but slowly at that... Not to menchin the amount of fuel this thing was using... So i would check for Haust leaks either before the turbo.. or before the 02 sensor... hope it helps!!!

[Sister7]

On the advice of FrankB, whose thought was injectors, I pulled the plug wires off one at a time to see if if that would make a difference..... it did, on the passenger side rear cylinder (#3?). So I'm leaning to the miss being a bad injector, or a non firing one....

 

I'm a bit confused on this...when you pulled #3 it ran worse? If so, wouldn't that suggest that #3 is the good cylinder and there are problems with #1,2, and 4?

[daeron]

I'm a bit confused on this...when you pulled #3 it ran worse? If so, wouldn't that suggest that #3 is the good cylinder and there are problems with #1,2, and 4?

 

Yes. Clarification here, please.. if pulling the plug wire on #3 made NO difference in the way the engine ran (as I believe you stated in a later post than the one Sister7 quoted) then you need to STEP BACK... and recognize the one thing that information tells you.

 

You have an issue on your #3 cylinder. If you pull the spark plug wire off, and there is NO difference, then that would indicate the cylinder isnt firing at all. (or rarely) That does NOT mean you have a fuel injector issue, although other pieces of information point towards that... you don't have any bubbling into your coolant overflow when you have the engine running, or when you cut the car off, do you? My overlying point is, a compression check would probably also behoove. Remember, three things to make an engine run.. spark, fuel, compression.

 

Seeing that wou already have purchased your multimeter and noid light, go to town.. Chances are pretty good that fuel delivery is your problem... BUT if you seem to run into a wall there, remember.. All that you know, from the data that you have collected, is that cylinder #3 is not running. That is the only data the car has given you, thus far.

 

I don't know if that was any help, BUT i still figured it was worth saying.

 

Oh, and just in case.. if you pull the wire off of cylinder #3 and you DO get a change, then yah.. sister7 was right.. #3 is the only cylinder WITHOUT a problem.....

[GoldDiggerRoo]

Here's a link to Autozone's copy of the haynes manual. But it helps. Use the thottle body link to the right to see the testing of the TPS, and the rest of the components. The scroll down menu obove that gets you to the rest of the components.

 

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1c/65/02/0900823d801c6502.jsp

 

 

It sounds like the injector is sticking open, that would explain the crappy running at low speeds(too rich), black smoke(too rich), and great running at high rpm(turbo likes rich mixtures). I doubt cleaning it will help, it rarely does unless you have an ultrasonic cleaner??

 

I finally found my haynes manual, which describes the testing proceedure, but I'm still rather unsure as how to work this multimeter. Oh yeah, I do have an ultrasonic.

 

What I meant to say in my previous post is that removing the plug wire for 3 made no difference at all. I got a chance to put the noid light on it too, injectors are firing fine, all of them... so I'm still guessing I have a bad injector.

 

Also, I am not getting any bubling coolant overflow, I'll try an find my compression tester in the next few days though and do a check anyhow.

 

I have no exhaust leak before the turbo either, I do however have some big cracks in the intake hose going from the maf to the turbo.

 

I did try to pull the injector today, but I couldn't free the fuel rail from the hoses after I unbolted it from the head/intake, besides the clamps it does just slide on, right?

[jeffast]

I did try to pull the injector today, but I couldn't free the fuel rail from the hoses after I unbolted it from the head/intake, besides the clamps it does just slide on, right?

it does but it is very tight i had to cut the old one off mine