running on-road with welded spool

[Numbchux]

so with my latest research into the toyota offroad community, I stumbled across this:

http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=51513

 

it seems to me that a decently set-up lifted subaru (like mine was when I sold it....) doesn't break axles any faster than a jeep does with big tires and stock axles (my buddy just broke a shaft on his Dana 35 in his YJ...on 35s. but it took 2 years). so why would it be that bad to drive on the road with a welded rear end? you may have to change your driving style a bit to avoid any real tight turns. go around the block instead of making a U....

 

has anyone run with a welded rear end and both rear axles installed on the road? or is it just speculation? I can see how it would put a bit more wear on the system then otherwise, but as long as you're easy on the happy pedal (both on-road and off-), it seems to me that it should last awhile.

 

had I stumbled across this earlier, I might not have sold the wagon :-\

[dixracing]

yup.....mine is welded....yes i drive it on the street.......yes you have to take that into consideration.....and the test goes on......and yes it goes anywhere til it runs out of power...........

[GeneralDisorder]

has anyone run with a welded rear end and both rear axles installed on the road? or is it just speculation? I can see how it would put a bit more wear on the system then otherwise, but as long as you're easy on the happy pedal (both on-road and off-), it seems to me that it should last awhile.

 

Yes, and I've broken 2 that way (because I forgot to take them out). The turning radius of a subaru is a LOT better than a toy, and hard over will snap the DOJ cup if your tires are large enough, and have enough grip on the road. Usually the cup splits open, and the cage/balls "pop" from one slot in the cup to the next. Usually twists the boot or just rips it completely off. Very noisy, and messy. Both of mine were broken at low speeds - 10 to 15 Mph. The flatter you run the axles, the less likely breaking them is, but big tires, hard turn uphill..... yeah something will give. The diff stubs can just twist right off as well sometimes - especially likely with t-case rigs.

 

You can't really compare the halfshaft of a subaru with a splined axle shaft in a solid axle Toy. It's a completely different design. They both transfer power horizontally, but that's about where the similarities stop.

 

GD

[Numbchux]

You can't really compare the halfshaft of a subaru with a splined axle shaft in a solid axle Toy. It's a completely different design. They both transfer power horizontally, but that's about where the similarities stop.

 

I realize that. but it got me thinking...

 

I've had a Napa reman'd axle explode like you describe on the trail. yea, it's a mess.

 

anyway, that's what I wanted to hear. I just couldn't remember of anyone telling of having real problems with a welded rear end. and that thread made me think it might have been a myth...

[GeneralDisorder]

The two I mentioned are just the ones I've blown on the street.... I've wasted about 7 or 8 total off-road. But that has since stopped now that I switched to using EA82 DOJ's on my EA81.... works great but sadly there's no equivelent for the EA82 cars since there's not a wider subaru to get them from :-p

 

I was actually pulling them apart as my suspension has enough downward flex to yank the axles apart at high wheel speeds (I thrash the hell out of my wagon).

 

GD

[Rollie715]

I need some clarifications.

I hear a lot about EA81 axles breaking and some people suggest upgrading with EA82 DOJ's or even double DOJ's. What do all these terms mean?

 

I have an 88 d/r EA82. What axles are stock in my wagon and do I need to be concerned about breaking them, or are most of these discussions centered around earlier Soobs or EA81's?

 

For my lifted and welded 88, should I consider purchasing new GCK axles or maybe the rebuilt ones by MWE?

 

My existing fronts are both shot, so I need to get replacement ones anyway.

 

 

Thanks

Rollie

[Phizinza]

CV = Constant Velocity. the basics is it is good at taking shape angles (thats why they use it on the steering wheels mostly) but is un able to extend or compact.

 

DOJ = Double Offset Joint. These are better for the rear of subies IMO because they don't need to turn. This type of joint and extend by sliding in and out of the "cup" (part that goes on the hub or diff spline.)

 

On EA82's they use CV joints on the outters at the rear. This means the saft and extend as long. They made this up with longer inner DOJ cups (what GD is talking about)

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.

 

From what I hear, CV's tend to explode. DOJ's tend to tear aprat, the cup opens up and there for the race holding the ballbearings can rotate inside the cup. CV's seem like they can't open up like that because the casing is shorter which makes it stronger, so in stead of bending they explode.

 

I don't know if thats what you wanted to know, but I said it anyhow.

 

I've only been doing lite offroading for a couples of years now and have only damaged front CV's (from too much suspension lift giving them too much angle.) In my experience they only start to click. So I'm guessing I'm not doing enough hardcore offroading

 

 

The way I see it is there is too many "myths" about subaru drivetrans brought on by factory stickers and other cars.

The whole 'don't drive in 4WD on road' for example. I used 4WD for well over 1000km of hard driving on tight bumpy asphalt roads and I don't feel a difference in the gearbox. Nothing broke and it all seems good. I haven't heard of many real stories of people braking things on-road with a locked rear. But I have heard plenty of "well it could happen and probably will so it is not recommended." I suggest if you have the time and don't mind a slightly unreliable car, to do the tests, drive with a locked rear, break something.. And when you do, please come back to this board or email me the story, I am dying to know of first hand experience of these subie drivetrans breaking...

 

What about that guy who had the EJ20t with gearbox in his Loyal in RWD with a LSD. He drifted it and all, has the videos to prove it too. I don't recall him saying anything about breaking drive shafts. Granted they were at better then stock angle. But still, 220+hp through a R160 and 2 stock subie axles?

[GeneralDisorder]

I need some clarifications.

I hear a lot about EA81 axles breaking and some people suggest upgrading with EA82 DOJ's or even double DOJ's. What do all these terms mean?

 

The EA82's had two different styles of rear axle - one has two DOJ's, and the other (more common) has a DOJ on the inside, and a CV on the outside like the front. The double DOJ axles are prefered as they have more stretch than the outboard CV style.

 

EA81's were always DOJ's on both ends, but the EA81 is narrower, and has shallow cups on the rear axles. Changing to the EA82 DOJ's on both ends gives about 3/4" of extra stretch, which is considerable for how cheap the upgrade is.

 

You'll benefit from reading my write up on it, even though you have an EA82. It will give you some background on the subject:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~trilinear/axle_rebuilding.html

 

GD

[GeneralDisorder]

CV = Constant Velocity. the basics is it is good at taking shape angles (thats why they use it on the steering wheels mostly) but is un able to extend or compact.

 

DOJ = Double Offset Joint. These are better for the rear of subies IMO because they don't need to turn. This type of joint and extend by sliding in and out of the "cup" (part that goes on the hub or diff spline.)

 

The DOJ is just a special class of CV, and you could in fact use DOJ's on the front outer if you built a special stub like the rears have. Steerable wheels do NOT preclude the use of DOJ's if properly designed.

 

On EA82's they use CV joints on the outters at the rear. This means the saft and extend as long. They made this up with longer inner DOJ cups (what GD is talking about)

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong please.?

 

Don't mind if I do . Actually they used both styles, with seemingly no rhyme or reason to it. Also even the double DOJ EA82 axles have the deeper cups. Why they are so deep is a mystery as the EA82's have lower ground clearance than the EA81 by nearly 2 inches in stock form :-\

 

GD

[Subarutex]

I run my wagon welded, and seldom have the motivation to remove an axle. I've broken nothing.

 

And, i don't drive it any differently. U turns, tight turns into parkins spots, etc...

[NoahDL88]

I've never broken a rear axle yet, and i've been running welded for a while now.

 

Broke a front, cause i had it at the lock, and got wheel hop in the rain, and the rear caused a fair bit of drag. But its ok, it was the motivation i needed for the 5 lug swap.

[WoodsWagon]

I've caused more carnage than most and that's mostly on the street. I'm not welded and I still blow things out. Mabe people should also list their tire size and type?

 

 

Destroyed:

1 rear diff. grenaded, spider gears stripped, crosshaft shattered, carrier split.

2 driveshafts blew the U-joints out of both of em.

3 front CV's on one side.

1 dual range tranny, smoked final drive. Nothing but ping...ping...ping in any gear.

And that's just this year.

 

I'm running 234/75r15 BFG all terrains with an EJ22 on the other end.

 

The torque exerted on both ends of the drivetrain determines it's relaiability.

[GeneralDisorder]

215/75r15's here (soft rubber too), and Hi-Po EA81. I blew a front axle pulling out of a 76 station in 2WD a while back - no front problems since I got GCK axles up there tho, and the one I blew was a 2WD axle that has been in there since before I did the 4WD conversion like 3 years ago. Surprised it lasted as long as it did. I think my diff has about had it too, but since I grenaded reverse in the 4 speed it's doing some sitting in the corner recently.... BAD SOOB!

 

GD

[Matty B]

Ok fellas,

has anyone run a welded rear with an AWD gearbox?

I wonder what the handling characteristics would be...

 

 

I like them tail happy!

[stinky]

There's a guy here in Oz that I know with a ea81t brat who's got a detroit locker in the back ( one of the very rare few! ) and he had some custom shafts made up for the rear out of a springy metal that is actually able to twist. He hasn't broken a CV or stubb axle since.

[scrap487]

There's a guy here in Oz that I know with a ea81t brat who's got a detroit locker in the back ( one of the very rare few! ) and he had some custom shafts made up for the rear out of a springy metal that is actually able to twist. He hasn't broken a CV or stubb axle since.

 

I wonder how much that cost him. Its quite a good idea as long as the shaft itself doesnt shear... I saw a subaru the other day in a junkyard down in albany where the shaft had completely sheared in 2.. nothing else wrong with that car. It would really help reduce the shock considerably, which is what seems to kill a lot of drivetrain components quickly.

[Phizinza]

How much more wear does a welded rear diff would have effect on tires? Anyone noticed?

 

The EA82's had two different styles of rear axle - one has two DOJ's, and the other (more common) has a DOJ on the inside, and a CV on the outside like the front. The double DOJ axles are prefered as they have more stretch than the outboard CV style.

Oh, I didn't know that.

The DOJ is just a special class of CV, and you could in fact use DOJ's on the front outer if you built a special stub like the rears have. Steerable wheels do NOT preclude the use of DOJ's if properly designed.

I kinda figured that they would work, but I have never seen them on the steering wheels so I wasn't quite sure. It might be a new project of mine for the years to come.

 

Thanks for the info, I like learning.

 

 

I run my wagon welded, and seldom have the motivation to remove an axle. I've broken nothing.

 

And, i don't drive it any differently. U turns, tight turns into parkins spots, etc...

Thats the sort of thing I like to hear, first hand experience.

 

 

 

As for the custom axles, I'm guessing very pricy $$$$ cos those lockers aren't cheap either $1200 I think you could get them for. So he must of had some money to spend. I heard only 500 were made for the Aus market.

[GeneralDisorder]

I wonder how much that cost him. Its quite a good idea as long as the shaft itself doesnt shear...

 

Conceptually, you could re-temper the existing shafts. Have to reheat them and quench with a salt bath.... yeah it could be done.

 

GD

[stinky]

I think they were about $150(AU) each for just the shafts. not too bad really. I can probably chase down contact details for the place if people are interested in doing some sort of group buy.

[Scott in Bellingham]

lifted subaru (like mine was when I sold it....) doesn't break axles any faster than a jeep does with big tires and stock axles

 

 

 

Ive only had one rear axle brake and that was because of over extention ,it was on the rear, if you look around you will find that most all 4x4s (any Brand or model) when modified with bigger tires and ran hard offroad will at one time or another brake stuff, if your suspension geometry is set up within the limits of your components and you drive also within those limits you shouldnt brake that often ,

 

 

Ive ran on the road 1/2 this year with a welded diff with both axles in , had no problems at all

 

had I stumbled across this earlier, I might not have sold the wagon :-\

 

your Yoya will be great, there will be times you will miss the wagon

[ninjaben43]

i ran mine welded for nearly a year and it was fine. as long as the factors are in your favor.

your axles have to be at a low angle, if they are already extendedwhen sitting on a flat, they will eventually break.

you cant have to much weight in the rear, it never broke but it sure didnt sound good

you have to change your driving style of course

and i think that it had alot to do with my swampers, they have so much tread and tire flex that they more or less slid on pavement rather than chirp or hop.

 

yes it did fail eventually, i was trying to go up an impossible hill climb and wedged a rear tire under a root, and snapped the spline off of my rearend.

after inspecting everything the cv's are still good to go, feel new even,but after popping a cv out of joint when i first got the lift, i drilled holes in my mustache bar, (a poor mans drop block for the rearend) putting way less angle on my cv's.

 

i am not saying it will be fine to do, but if you take some precautions, you will have way better luck.

[Turbone]

I noticed some bad noises when making a u-turn once, made a mental note not to do that again. My Hatch, I think because of the 8in of lift, has a nasty tendency to get squirrley when shifting/accelerating when only one rear axle is in. Torque steer in the rear is not fun.. Personaly, I think driving with a welded diff will shorten the life of it. But it could depend on road condtions and driving habits on how long it will last.

[970subaru]

anyone here had a CV cryo treated?

[Numbchux]

anyone here had a CV cryo treated?

 

if my wagon hadn't sold, I was going to try this. There's a company in the cities that does cryo treating, and I hear they do everything. I guess the owner cry treats his razors so they last like 10x longer. anyway, every spring they do a group buy on stuff. and people have their engine components frozen, aswell as brakes, etc. I was going to pull a double DOJ axle apart, and have everything frozen....

 

I probably still could, and ship a pair out to someone....

 

 

Matty B. another local guy ran his impreza wagon with a welded rear end for awhile. here's a video I took at one of our meets last year:

http://media.putfile.com/Fuji-doing-donuts-with-his-welded-rear-end

[Matty B]

Thanks Chux, welding mask on for me...

I am going to give it a go.

 

What the hell, whats at risk...a $15 junkyard CV, or a $50 diff

 

Worst case is a $200 gearbox..

I will let y'all know how it goes.