how to make a carb reliable and what kind of soob is this?

[idosubaru]

trying to help a guy and his family out with a reliable soob. i'm looking at a 1986 4WD wagon. probably has a freaking carb which i've never worked on. i'll be installing all new timing belts, water pump, oil pump, seals, battery cables, etc....

 

but not knowing anything about the carb, what are the best options? are they fairly reliable? how expensive is a new carb, is that overkill?

 

from the pic's can anyone verify it's a carb'ed EA82 and what 4WD manual transmission this 1986 would have?

[jeep5.9litre]

From the pic, looks to me like a carbed EA82 with a 5 speed D/R if its a manual tranny

[mikeshoup]

Probably would be better off getting the stuff to convert it to a SPFI, but you're looking at a couple hundred dollars if you go with all junkyard stuff.

[idosubaru]

yeah, no go on a SPFI swap. i'm willing to help out but they need a car and don't have that kind of $, and i don't have the time.

[nipper]

Do everything else first. What makes you think it needs a carb?

 

nipper

[Frank B]

A new carb can be as much as $400. I've seen them on Ebay for $150.

Just rebuild/clean it. It's super simple. Get a kit(I have an OEM one for sale:brow: ) and just take it apart, one piece at a time, clean it, then put it back together.

 

Weren't the 86 models either Carbed or turbo? No SPFI or MPFI ????

[idosubaru]

Do everything else first. What makes you think it needs a carb?

i have a serious problem with hating carbs, i should see a doctor. if i'm giving it a complete tune up and more i'm just thinking that's one of the weak links after that...and i hate them. hate hate hate. i hate my lawn mowers, i hate my chainsaws, i hate my tillers, my tractors...sorry, i hate them! FI all the way. i'm like opposite of the old guys that always complain about "those crazy new japanese computer controller cars".

[Snowman]

Everybody complains about the stock hitachi carbs, but that's mostly because they are dealing with old worn out ones. I've had two carbed EA82s, and until I screwed one of them up due to ignorance, neither of them had any issues. They started well even at 20 below, got good fuel economy, and had plenty of power (for a subaru).

 

If there isn't anything "wrong" with the carb that's on there, I'd leave it alone and it should work fine.

[GeneralDisorder]

MAKE SURE it's not a feedback model. If it's got an ECU under the dash RUN, don't walk, to the next soob.

 

I hate to be the voice of doom here, but....

 

The EA82 Hitachi's have some really bad problem areas. YES, they can be rebuilt, but the cost to do it right is *probably* going to be more than an SPFI swap. Here's the problems in the order of most to least severe:

 

#1. The choke spring on the EA82 Hitachi is almost always broken or about to break at the hook that operates the choke plate. I've searched the land far and wide on the two occasions that I needed one and found one in good shape and another only partially worn through in about 30 carbed models at 3 different yards. They are a pain in the rear to find, and it takes 10-15 minutes to get the thing off to even see if it's broken. The number of dissapointing times I've had to knock out those stupid rivets only to find a broken spring is probably 10 hours of my life I'll never get back.

 

#2. This is for all the Hitachi's - EA81 and EA82. The float's like to stick. The rebuild kits that are commonly availible are crap, and the needle valve's in the stick closed. Very hard to troubleshoot - I had one that would do it like once every couple months. Just when I thought it was fixed it would stick again. Very annoying.

 

#3. The ones with high mileage suffer from primary throttle shaft wear. They will still run, but they often refuse to return to a decent idle speed. The wear is such that the plates will stick and not allow the shaft to return to it's correct idle spot. This tends to change with temp, so that they will stick either when warm or when cold, etc but not the opposite. It also creates a vacuum leak around the shaft and even with the plate fully closed the idle quality will be poor. This is not easy to correct, as it requires the shaft to be re-bushed, and isn't addressed by a rebuild kit.

 

#4. The feedback models of the EA82 Hitachi are ghastly. Unlike the EA81 feedback (which is pretty simple) they attempted to improve upon it even more and in doing so added a manifold pressure sensor that ALWAYS fails, and costs over $300. Without it you get less than steller mileage, and a constant "ECS" lamp on the dash

 

Personally, I would find a different soob, or find a Holley/Weber 5200 from a ford and rebuild that. At least that's a DFV Weber and should be easy and cheap to rebuild. But it probably wouldn't be a whole lot less than an SPFI swap unless you find one really cheap. I have a bunch of parts for those things - I somehow ended up with like three of them but they are not complete and there's some bits missing. You can have them for shipping if you can find one for parts on the cheap. I think one is a DFV, and the others are 5200's.

 

As for "hating carbs", they can actually be VERY nice and simple. The Weber DGV, and the DFV are good examples. Carbs got a really bad wrap in the 80's when many companies started messing with basic carb design to try and make them meet increasingly difficult emmissions requirements. A BASIC carb is a really beutiful thing. The principle of operation is extremely simple. The Weber we all love is sadly illegal for street use. It's no a DOT approved device, and most of us are breaking the law to use it. This makes it a commodity of sorts because you can't pick them up off anything stock. You are FORCED to buy them from the aftermarket, and we have to compete with the jeep and VW community (etc) for the used ones. The 5200 is less known, but is a licensed copy of the DFV (mirror image of the DGV), and is DOT approved from the late 70's Ford Pinto days, etc.

 

GD

[subeman90]

i hate them too Gary but I had an 86 GL 4wd wagon back i HS and it was dead a$$ reliable. If it runs right leave it alone. I spent the money to have it rebuilt and it was totally unnecessay.

 

If it was a carter weber then maybe I'd be concerned (like the one on my 83)

[hatchsub]

i hate them too Gary but I had an 86 GL 4wd wagon back i HS and it was dead a$$ reliable. If it runs right leave it alone. I spent the money to have it rebuilt and it was totally unnecessay.

 

If it was a carter weber then maybe I'd be concerned (like the one on my 83)

 

Haha you still have the carter-weber?!?!? Are you planning a swap in the near future?

[idosubaru]

I hate to be the voice of doom here, but....

The EA82 Hitachi's have some really bad problem areas.

do all EA82 carbed vehicles have the Hitachi carb's or do some come with a different and better carb? i will try to avoid them but if it's a great deal i'll get whatever i can to help these people out.

 

thanks for the feedback matt, i'm looking for something in the 100,000 miles or less range so you're probably right i can leave well enough alone. (but i'm still going to try to avoid getting them one...)

[subeman90]

Haha you still have the carter-weber?!?!? Are you planning a swap in the near future?

 

"if it ain't broke...don't fix it" i don't want to mess with it (read: lazy)

 

It just makes my car worth more money....all origional with junk carb and all!!!!!!!

 

 

Gary: look for an 87 wagon maybe...I think that is when they went to FI.

[Frank B]

The EA82 only had the Hitachi, it's the older EA81 and EA71? that had the one barrel Carter/Weber.

[hatchsub]

"if it ain't broke...don't fix it" i don't want to mess with it (read: lazy)

 

It just makes my car worth more money....all origional with junk carb and all!!!!!!!

 

 

Gary: look for an 87 wagon maybe...I think that is when they went to FI.

 

HAHA ok good point. I really didnt need to swap my car over to hitachi but i felt like it. Lost a bit of low end cause of the smaller primary but gained a whole lot of top end and hopefully ill gain back some low end with this manual gear box (whenever i get around to finishing it that is)

[jacobs]

I've owned my carbed 1986 ea82 since 1989 and put over 250,000 miles on it since then. The only problem I've ever had with my stock carb is I had to replace the accelerator pump 5 years ago. To me, that's fantastic dependability and the repair was simple and cheap. All 5 of my vehicles are carbureted and there's a reason for it - dependability and easy to repair. I like electronics but not on cars.

[GeneralDisorder]

All 5 of my vehicles are carbureted and there's a reason for it - dependability and easy to repair. I like electronics but not on cars.

 

I used to think that . But there's definate advantages to FI, and just like a *simple* carb, you can also have simple injection. The SPFI is quite simple, and dead reliable - more reliable than any carb, near impossible to clog from random particulates (single high pressure injector with no air bleeds, jets, passages, seals, gaskets, etc, etc), and runs at ANY angle - even upside down if you wanted to install a dry sump. Plus the parts for it are extremely cheap (cheaper than a new Weber by at least 50%), and if you have a failure, each and every part is simple to replace and easily accessed. Additionally, the SPFI ECU is capable of running with only the MAF, TPS and CAS sensors (and the ECU itself of course). The rest can be non-operational but the system will run well enough to get you home. Plus it will tell you what's wrong with it. I can easily carry a MAF, TPS, Disty, and ECU in a small bag under the seat and replace them quicker than anyone could troubleshoot a carb. Just like a carb you still have to understand how it works, and how to fix it. If you don't understand a carb, it make little difference if it's "easy to repair" or not. Same with FI. Once you understand it, the advantages are clear, and no logical individual would say it's less dependable or harder to repair. Ignorant statements to be sure.

 

You people can say what you want, but frankly it's all from FEAR. Those who proclaim from every rooftop that they HATE carbs, and those that do likewise with FI rarely have equal exprience or knowledge of both. Speaking from a perspective of having worked fairly extensively with BOTH (rebuilt, adapted, modified, COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND the theory behind, etc), I can say that I prefer a simple throttle body single injector setup (prefereable with MS) to any carb, and additionally I prefer a non-street legal simplified carb (such as the DGV) to an emissions modified unit like the Hitachi 2 barrel. I have no problems running or repairing any of them, but the carbs as a whole are DEFINATELY more work and head banging than a simple self-diagnostic FI system. Most of the old-timers that fear injection are afraid of one thing - "Computers". They don't understand them, and refuse to learn. Same with nascar - good-ol-boys that don't want to understand. Drink beer, and watch people go around an oval track in decades old technology - *hoping* for someone to crash into the stands for a little excitement.

 

The EA82 only had the Hitachi, it's the older EA81 and EA71? that had the one barrel Carter/Weber.

 

Only some of the early EA81's (never used on an EA71 as far as I know). I think 83 was the last year for the C/W. They have a feedback version of it to, which I've never actually seen. MOST ea81's were Hitachi's. 80-82 the C/W was more common, but you will rarely find it after that.

 

GD

[hatchsub]

 

Only some of the early EA81's (never used on an EA71 as far as I know). I think 83 was the last year for the C/W. They have a feedback version of it to, which I've never actually seen. MOST ea81's were Hitachi's. 80-82 the C/W was more common, but you will rarely find it after that.

 

GD

 

My 83 was a feedback carter-weber what a hunk of crap..the hitachi is much better but still not perfect.

[jacobs]

GD,

I'll admit that I'm fearful of the electronics in FI. Since most of the miles I put on my Subaru is on the highway up to 400 miles from home, if anything goes wrong, I don't want to be stranded. I broke down only once and that was due to my own stupidity of not keeping tabs on my timing belts. I want simplicity - it's cheep insurance.

[idosubaru]

You people can say what you want, but frankly it's all from FEAR.

yep, i already admitted that. if i wanted to debate i might suggest it's lack of time, i like to learn but just don't feel like putting the time into carbs.

[GeneralDisorder]

GD,

I'll admit that I'm fearful of the electronics in FI. Since most of the miles I put on my Subaru is on the highway up to 400 miles from home, if anything goes wrong, I don't want to be stranded. I broke down only once and that was due to my own stupidity of not keeping tabs on my timing belts. I want simplicity - it's cheep insurance.

 

I understand, but the only "electronics" in the FI are the ECU, coil ignitor, and the optical pickup in the disty. All are extremely rugged, and personally I've only ever heard of the ignitors failing occasionally. They are small and you can easily carry a spare.

 

Besides that, you HAVE an ignitor in your carb disty unless you are running points and condensor from an EA71 which I doubt. So really you aren't losing any reliability there.

 

The disty's suffer from shaft bushing failure occasionally, but then so do the carb models, and it's less common on the SPFI as the disty has pin bearings on the shaft. The SPFI disty is also easily dissasembled and the bearings replaced - the carb model has the be pressed apart as the reluctor is press fit onto the shaft.

 

The ECU is amazingly rugged - I've never heard of one failing. The one exception is they will be immediately destroyed if you hook up the battery in reverse. But you aren't going to do that now are you?

 

And the point is that if any of these things fail you can carry spares and swap them out just as easily as a carb. Easier in fact in most cases. If the ignitor on your carb goes you have to replace the disty pickup - on the SPFI it's the coil bracket so a lot easier to swap out. If your disty shaft bushings fail swapping that is the same as the carb but easier since you don't have to mess with any vacuum pots. And if the ECU goes.... well that would be pretty obvious too for a lot of reasons. The O2 monitor lamp on the side of it probably wouldn't give you a model code - it would just act "dead".

 

So what do you carry for spares in a carb model (fuel and ignition)? Here would be my list:

 

Disty

Coil

Carb stuff (cleaner, adjustment tools, etc)

 

SPFI:

 

Disty

Coil+Bracket

ECU

MAF

TPS

 

And of those I would expect to need only the ignitor, and *maybe* the TPS, but likely if the TPS developed a flat spot I would just drive it home anyway. But of course I like to be prepared, so I carry all the spares I could need - in case lightning strikes my ECU or something

 

The reality is that the carb has more moving parts, and parts that move fail a lot more often than solid-state electronics. Plus learning how to check the codes for the FI is easy, and the ECU will TELL you what's wrong. How much easier can it be?? 10's of thousands of Loyale owners can't be *that* wrong. The first SPFI conversion setup I got came from a 90 Loyale with 248,000 miles on it. Car was wrecked and the engine was run without oil or coolant till it basically seized (radiator split, and the oil filter was gashed open - they rallied it around his property till it stopped running). The SPFI system ran fine from it once transplanted into my Brat - even abused with high mileage it started right up with just a few cranks.

 

GD

[GeneralDisorder]

yep, i already admitted that. if i wanted to debate i might suggest it's lack of time, i like to learn but just don't feel like putting the time into carbs.

 

That's cool - but carbs are very simple. It would take only a few minutes and a couple diagrams to get the idea. It's just a venturi (speeds up the airflow) and a tube leading to a bucket of fuel. The engine vacuum and the low pressure caused by the venturi effect of speeding the air up "sucks" fuel into the air stream like you are sucking it out of a gas tank. The tube has a special sized hole in the bucket end called a "jet" and that limits how much fuel can be sucked thus "tuning" the carb is a matter of picking the right sized jet.

 

Everything on the carb is about this principle. You have one jet for each barrel, and then you generelly have an "idle" jet that's only used for idling.

 

The rest of the parts are largely ancillerary to the engine actually running - like FI there is a cold enrichment. The plates at the top of the carb block air flow - less air = more fuel sucked out of the "bucket". The accelerator pump smoothes out the transistion from one "bucket hose" (jet) to the next by squirting fuel anytime the throttle is depressed, and the float maintains the correct fuel level in the "bucket" (float chamber).

 

You have a couple vacuum ports that run the EGR and the Distributor advance on the front.

 

Really that about covers it for basic carb theory. Simple. It can be a real biotch to troubleshoot at times, but hey - that's what WE are here for right?

 

GD

[idosubaru]

- that's what WE are here for right?

well yes, it is second to not finding a good deal on an FI soob. every carb problem i had was fixed by just disassembling, cleaning and putting back together so i can't complain too much. but i still hate even doing that and of course those weren't cars and were probably more likely to get clogged and dirty with debris unlike an underhood carb. he needs the car quickly so the issue will mostly be 4WD/2WD and he'd like a wagon or OBS of some sort for space. i have overcome my fear and will get a carb if available.

[jacobs]

GD,

You’ll probably call me paranoid but I do have the old points and condenser in my EA82. When I converted to points, there was no loss of power or economy. The only reason manufactures went to electronic ignition was due to the Federal Government requiring auto manufacturers to extend tune up intervals for emissions purposes.

Spare parts I always carry - coil, cap, rotor, points, and condenser. I’ve never carried anything for the carburetor. I’ve been driving for 44 years and NEVER had a carburetor have any more than a minor problem. The worst carb problem I’ve ever experienced was an accelerator pump failure and that doesn’t leave a person stranded. btw I don't have a feedback carb.

[GeneralDisorder]

GD,

You’ll probably call me paranoid but I do have the old points and condenser in my EA82. When I converted to points, there was no loss of power or economy.

 

I agree - no problem with point/condensor other than the extra maintenance interval.

 

The worst carb problem I’ve ever experienced was an accelerator pump failure and that doesn’t leave a person stranded. btw I don't have a feedback carb.

 

Pretty good record. I've had floats stick (not fun), I've clogged the crap out of the primary and idle circuits to where I had to remove the top of the Weber and blow the passages out - that's happened several times. Better air filtration would probably have prevented that though. I was still able to fix it in the field - borrowed a can of carb cleaner and 20 minutes later it was all good again.

 

Feedbacks are just nasty - don't ever get one. I had the oxygen sensor actually fail in my EA81 feedback hitachi and the engine just died at a stop light. I pulled the O2 plug and was able to drive it that way for a while. What a mess.

 

But really, you can't say that you wouldn't have had the same good luck with FI - and generally speaking for "john public" the SPFI cars are the ones in the EA82 family generally considered the most "maintenance free", and "trouble free". Cars (and especially subarus) are designed to be as trouble free as possible, and that includes both carbs and FI systems. Just because it's got electronics doesn't make it more or less reliable than a system without. You still need good design principles. The carb has 100 years of this to draw on - they have come a long way to be sure. FI drew on all that experience, and brought new ideas and possibilities to the table. It definately is capable of better mileage at the same or better power than any carb ever devised. Even the feedback couldn't match the SPFI for economy or performance, and just look at the mess they created trying.... The SPFI has the performance of a Weber, more econemy than a feedback Hitachi, and is more simple and more reliable than either.

 

Strickly speaking if you want total reliabilty - get a horse. This is an extreme example, and it's neither economical or performance minded (it also frequently sucks, and smells bad), but it illustrates my point. There's trade-offs to be made, and in the case of carbs the problem is that development has moved on. The difference in econemy and performance is small enough to be overlooked for now, but sadly I don't think that's going to be the case much longer. If the next few years brings even higher oil prices I think we are all going to be looking at either a Justy, or some form of fuel cell or something.

 

The big win for FI for what I do is angle, and altitude compensation. There are of course carbs that could do both, but not that are easily and readily adapatable to the subaru. Plus for my daily the econemy and power is very handy. And I enjoy messing with things like MegaSquirt and such. Besides - who's going to help all those hapless SPFI owners if some of us don't learn how it works

 

GD