I plugged EGR on Carb model ...

[bgd73]

It occurred to me I created a cavity that will be doing nothing on the intake and it is completely sealed. Is something physics going to happen, or is it ok to leave it like it is for the time being. The carb model has an air bypass attached to the top of egr valve (yet another ridiculous route for this) and I have not made a direct plug for it when egr valve is gone entirely- that is why I had to leave egr valve there for now.The original metal line from pass cyl head is plugged and line removed, and I made a plate to cover one end, creating the cavity.

 

photo below is from a 93 loyale, it is dark now and didn't get photo of actual work.The red arrows indicate the area of cavity. There is hot fluid from bottom of intake close by, and am wondering if this blockage can handle it.. I am guessing it will open the remains of the egr valve to relieve itself- but with no exhaust going through it.

the badly drawn blue lines is the bypass hose on the carb version I am referring to- it goes right through the top of egr valve.

 

[The Scooby]

im sorry, but why did you remove your EGR? if it was bad and your broke pick up one from a wrecking yard, a EGR doesn't kill horsepower, it helps with your fuel milage. so im just wondering why you got rid of it?

 

another thing is it keeps cylnder temps down which helps the engien last longer.

[bgd73]

Here in Maine where everything is upside down, the egr has even tried to brain damage me. That egr theory is the most thoroughly flunked fantasy I have ever encountered oin my old soobs.I am glad it works normal for most of you. Why anyone wants an engine to eat its own crap and fill the cabin air with it is beyond reality- it even angers me after what I have been through trying to humor that ridiculous falsity.

Anyway, the cavity didn't hurt, a hesitation is about nulled , and it even raised the heat just a tad on that part of the icebox (engine). maybe I won't have to cover the rad like a tractor trailer after all....

 

Thre icicle hitachi rocks!

[Hodaka Rider]

Maybe removing the EGR is thought to make the gravity of physics come to light in a most precarious and thoughtful way, unwilling to conform to convention by way of the common knowledge of "engineers" who profess knowledge and have learned things but don't look at the universal transgression of actualy experience.

Or something.

[GeneralDisorder]

That old saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" applies perfectly here. If you want to render a USEFUL opinion, you should go to college, complete at least an engineering degree, and learn about the fundamentals of research and data collection (such as what constitutes valid conclusions, what constitutes unsubstantiated assumptions that can't be backed up with hard data, what constitutes statistically significant data versus random variation or coincidence, what constitutes real hard data versus unverified "impressions", what constitutes research bias and how to avoid it, etc.). After completing such an education, you probably won't be thinking the same way anymore... but if you still want to maintain the same opinion, then at least you can do so intelligently and may seek some hard data to back up your point of view. Science, at its essence, is a set of rules designed to force us to reason logically, to remove or minimize personal bias, inaccurate assumptions, and all the other things that the average person usually does wrong when trying to think about a problem.

 

*Most* people simply aren't logical or rational to the degree that science demands, unless trained extensively to think that way... so incorrect conclusions are commonplace, often based on little or no evidence other than what that person wants to think is important. You have fallen into this trap, and I personally am sick of it.

 

GD

[Frank B]

That threaded hole is where the "exhaust pipe" for the egr was right? It's been a while since I had a Subaru EGR off, but if that gasket under the plate seals off the exhaust route from the intake route, it should be fine to leave it open. If you don't have a gasket, it may leak past and create a vacuum leak. If you left the egr in place, with the vacuum line off, it will be fine with no air or exhaust movement. Without the EGR on an engine, you can get more detonation due to the higher cylinder temps. You may be able to get past that with more advanced timing and a richer mix to use the gas to cool the cylinders but it will run like crap since the engine was designed to have it. The igniton, cam, carb jets, carb size, emissions, etc all were made to run with EGR.

A different engine entirely, but I had an EGR valve go bad on my 300 inline 6 powered 82 ford F150, and it produced a TON of detonation. I was 50 miles from home and had to drive the interstate, so I adjusted the metering rod to enrichen the mix enough to stop the detonation, but I cut my mileage in half to do it!! Luckily I had a spare EGR at home. Put that on, re-adjusted the mix, and it's fine now.

[subynut]

Right they are, General Disorder and The Scooby be. Yes....... Belongs in, the EGR does, yes...

BUT!

If plugging the EGR fixed your exhaust smell in the cabin, then the logcal conclusion would be the EGR system has a leak. THAT, the hesitation, the cause be.

As far as your heating issues, what temp t-stat do you have and how old is it?

My 86 had practicly no heat with a 180 in it; I put a stock 190 in and replaced the radiator, and I had plenty of heat in 20 deg cold and still kept cool during the summer months.

Consider this, you must do. Yes.......

[subiemech85]

JOIN THE CLUB of people that have removed the egr valve and installed a block off plate

 

if you want an egr valve, I have several available, and they all work

[jeffast]

im sorry, but why did you remove your EGR? if it was bad and your broke pick up one from a wrecking yard, a EGR doesn't kill horsepower, it helps with your fuel milage. so im just wondering why you got rid of it?

 

another thing is it keeps cylnder temps down which helps the engien last longer.

never try reason with bgd it just doesn't work if you don't smile and nod he will come up with a bogus excuse, trust me i tried it's not worth the stress

[skishop69]

If your EGR went bad causing detonation, it stuck open or was leaking. The detonation was caused by the lean condition from sucking unmetered 'air' through the EGR (though you do get detonation from excessive cyl temps, but not enough to notice unless your mechanical or tuning is WAY out of whack). You solved that (temporarily) by richening the mixture. The EGR is there to reduce combustion temps thereby reducing NoX (oxides of nitrogen). NoX is far more dangerous to the environment than the Co or Hc's released by combustion. ALL the EGR is there for is NoX reduction. The effect on mileage is NEGLIGABLE at best. To even see it, you would need to spend WAY too much time (and money) on the dyno. Because it is designed for use under specific conditions dictated by RPM, load and engine temp, the camshaft(s) and timing really have nothing to do with it. UNLESS... You are dealing with OBD2 systems controlling timing (not to mention every other bloody component on the engine) and variable degree camshafts, then the system (all mechanical and electronic components) was designed to work in harmony. Up until the gov't mandate for OBD1 in the mid 80's (and even then), the EGR was a bolt on patch to help reduce NoX though not near as efficient as now. In your case, pull it off and pitch it in the round file. zzz You're NOT going to hurt ANYTHING. EXCEPT... your emissions and the environment. (No I'm not a tree hugger. I own my share of high performance/high polluting vehicles.) Back to my repast...

[Frank B]

Right you are! Now that I've thought about it, the one on my turd, I mean Ford, did stick open.

[desertsubaru]

I have been running with out EGR and with the line in the head pluged with my 86 carbed wagon for two years now with no bad effects. I have a holly 5200 and my timing is advanced to 9 instead of 8 degrees. The carb is adjusted to two turns out on the mixture screw and I still get 30 mpg at 70 on the highway. Im still putting a half a gallon of kerosene per tank and my car has never run better. This is the 5th tank on the mix and it just gets better each tank.

[Frank B]

I have been running with out EGR and with the line in the head pluged with my 86 carbed wagon for two years now with no bad effects. I have a holly 5200 and my timing is advanced to 9 instead of 8 degrees. The carb is adjusted to two turns out on the mixture screw and I still get 30 mpg at 70 on the highway. Im still putting a half a gallon of kerosene per tank and my car has never run better. This is the 5th tank on the mix and it just gets better each tank.

 

Don't intend to highjack, but..........

Do you remember what jets your using?

What was your miliage before using the Kerosene?

[jacobs]

I've been running w/o the egr for ???? I'm sure it's been many years. The vacuum lines are plugged solid with carbon deposits and I still get up to 42 mpg out on the plains as long as I drive with a light foot. I don't think an operating egr would help my gas milage.

[mikeshoup]

I don't think an operating EGR will hurt your gas milage either. As was stated earier, if it affects gas milage any at all, its negligible. The purpose of it is to create a cooler combustion temperature and reduce NOx emissions (which it does, btw).

 

My wagon still had EGR and I could get upwards 35mpg on the highway. I doubt removing EGR would give me any more help.

[desertsubaru]

Don't intend to highjack, but..........

Do you remember what jets your using?

What was your miliage before using the Kerosene?

What ever jets were in it when I bought it from ebay . It was a reman for a 80 pinto. With out kero i would get 25 to 26 and my valves would rap at WOT. I started another thread called "kerosene" that will give you more info. Allso if you read that thread you will see that i had a dead spot at 3500 rpms without the kero From either wrong jets or dirt. But now that i use the kero I have no dead spot and no valve rap. I did run one tank with out kero and it had the dead spot and the rap.

[WoodsWagon]

If your EGR went bad causing detonation, it stuck open or was leaking. The detonation was caused by the lean condition from sucking unmetered 'air' through the EGR.

If the EGR system is causing detonation, there has to be a leak to the atmosphere in it. The exhaust gas it pulls into the intake is pre-burned. Inert for the most part. This is why it doesn't matter if it's metered or not, it doesn't lean out or enrich the mixture. All it does is take up space.

 

The EGR is there to reduce combustion temps thereby reducing NoX (oxides of nitrogen). NoX is far more dangerous to the environment than the Co or Hc's released by combustion. ALL the EGR is there for is NoX reduction.

 

NOx is the biggest contributor to smog. Ever been to SoCal? It reacts with the air to form the haze. NOx is formed by the nitrogen in the air that the engine pulls in combining with the O2 in the air. It only does this at high temperatures.

 

So go ahead and yank it. It's not a miracle performance increaser, or a detriment to the engine. But do realize that you are helping F**k the air for everyone else.

[The Scooby]

its amazing how many people need to do some research... yes it reduces NOx, but it also sends the vapor back through your engine to make sure you burn every partical of gas that you put in your tank. as well as droping your cylnder temps causing less pinging or detenation, causing your engine to use less fuel to get the same HP output.

 

so good luck with your engine life/milage. if you care to disagree all i have to say is go read a book or something.

[skishop69]

Ok, since SOME people are getting a little cranky about this..... I am an EPA and WA state certified Master Emissions Technician. I did not get this by going through a 'Crackerjack' class. The exhaust gas introduced to the combustion chamber contains unburned fuel and O2. If it were inert, it wouldn't cause a runability problem when it sticks open. If you ever have the chance, watch your fuel trim data and induce an EGR leak. You will see the fuel trim climb as it tries to add fuel to get back to 14.7/1. As stated before... "(though you do get detonation from excessive cyl temps, but not enough to notice unless your mechanical or tuning is WAY out of whack)." On OBD2 vehicles, the ECM gives more spark advance to obtain better mileage and HP when the EGR is open. On carbbed systems, this is NOT the case. Again.... "The effect on mileage is NEGLIGABLE at best. To even see it, you would need to spend WAY too much time (and money) on the dyno." As well, the 'actual' increase in engine life on older and some newer vehicles is negligable. IT WILL NOT AFFECT YOUR ENGINE LIFE OR MILEAGE. My suggestion is to stop believing everything your community college professor tells you, get rid of the second rate text books, get some real world experience and take the EPA mandated classes. Then go spend some time on a dyno actually testing things out. If you're going to get cocky, you better have more than a book to back it. Don't believe everything you read.

[GeneralDisorder]

The exhaust gas introduced to the combustion chamber contains unburned fuel and O2. If it were inert, it wouldn't cause a runability problem when it sticks open.

 

The EGR system *should* be introducing inert exhaust on a properly tuned carb. There will of course be trace amounts of both even on a near perfect system, and even more on badly tuned engines. It doesn't really cause a "runability" problem when the engine vacuum is low (off-idle). The problem comes in when you open it at idle and it allows engine vacuum to by-pass the carb and not pull in any fuel and fresh air. This is why it gets "delayed ported" vacuum that is exposed to the intake just shortly after the port for the distributor advance.

 

O2 is introduced (on the carb models) by the air suction valve system (passive "smog pump" basically) for the catalyst to perform at peak. That's a completely unrelated emmissions device.

 

You are correct that it's for emmissions only, and does not harm the engine life, performance, or econemy when it's operating properly. By removing it you are simply adding to the pollution problem. But that's enough of a reason to keep it in my opinion.

 

This is all academic though - not to mention it's been discussed to DEATH many times before on here. I was simply pointing out that BDG's methods and REASONS for removing it are unfounded, and simply absurd.

 

GD

[jacobs]

Ok, since SOME people are getting a little cranky about this..... I am an EPA and WA state certified Master Emissions Technician. I did not get this by going through a 'Crackerjack' class. The exhaust gas introduced to the combustion chamber contains unburned fuel and O2. If it were inert, it wouldn't cause a runability problem when it sticks open. If you ever have the chance, watch your fuel trim data and induce an EGR leak. You will see the fuel trim climb as it tries to add fuel to get back to 14.7/1. As stated before... "(though you do get detonation from excessive cyl temps, but not enough to notice unless your mechanical or tuning is WAY out of whack)." On OBD2 vehicles, the ECM gives more spark advance to obtain better mileage and HP when the EGR is open. On carbbed systems, this is NOT the case. Again.... "The effect on mileage is NEGLIGABLE at best. To even see it, you would need to spend WAY too much time (and money) on the dyno." As well, the 'actual' increase in engine life on older and some newer vehicles is negligable. IT WILL NOT AFFECT YOUR ENGINE LIFE OR MILEAGE. My suggestion is to stop believing everything your community college professor tells you, get rid of the second rate text books, get some real world experience and take the EPA mandated classes. Then go spend some time on a dyno actually testing things out. If you're going to get cocky, you better have more than a book to back it. Don't believe everything you read.

 

THANK YOU! This is exactly what my experience has confirmed. I've been driving and modifying engines since before EGR's or any emissions control were invented.

[bgd73]

I will disagree with egr until the end of time. Whatever guages gadgets thermal monitoring voltage readings ohms and continuity- may as well run an amperage check on that as well.

If egr is necessary, would love to know the reason to rip it to shreds.

If it is helping something- will find whatever it is ading by doing it my way someplace else on the engine.

 

 

 

The fact is- the facts aren't all the same for egr. Be it locale, temperatures, air quality, whatever science may dig up. It takes one scenario for a soob with egr to fantastically, catastrophically fail with egr- A hazardous environment. I must be in one 99% of the time, egr has been horrifying since my first v8's from the 70's with a valve recycling just one cylinders WASTE (like the ea82).On the v8 there is 7 more cylinders to burn cleanly after the egr pukes a squirt- the ea82 is even more responsive to it. I guessed #4 cylinder was sucking it in due to valve/firing time after #3 pukes it. I verified out loud after pulling cylinder heads on my 166k soob. #4 cyl had very strange stains on the walls, and the piston looked different. I could list at least a dozen problems with it, but choose to vent the facts locally here where I live, as it seems to be mandatory for overzealous environmentalists who are hoping more than factuating, making it mandatory in other places (not mine however).

 

 

The thread started off asking about the cavity I created. I covered the egr opening into intake with doubled up thin aluminum- with engine running it pulsates like a heartbeat. Engine runs way different for the better. It seems the hundreds of degrees slamming the intake for 20 years left a crack in the intake this seal job silenced. I am hoping it hangs on until my removing of the intake for my loyale one.

 

 

Sometimes a hunch has no words to avoid disagreement.

[skishop69]

The EGR system *should* be introducing inert exhaust on a properly tuned carb. There will of course be trace amounts of both even on a near perfect system, and even more on badly tuned engines. It doesn't really cause a "runability" problem when the engine vacuum is low (off-idle). The problem comes in when you open it at idle and it allows engine vacuum to by-pass the carb and not pull in any fuel and fresh air. This is why it gets "delayed ported" vacuum that is exposed to the intake just shortly after the port for the distributor advance.

 

O2 is introduced (on the carb models) by the air suction valve system (passive "smog pump" basically) for the catalyst to perform at peak. That's a completely unrelated emmissions device.

 

You are correct that it's for emmissions only, and does not harm the engine life, performance, or econemy when it's operating properly. By removing it you are simply adding to the pollution problem. But that's enough of a reason to keep it in my opinion.

 

This is all academic though - not to mention it's been discussed to DEATH many times before on here. I was simply pointing out that BDG's methods and REASONS for removing it are unfounded, and simply absurd.

 

GD

 

You are correct, I meant to say 'not completely inert'. There is still unburned O2 in the exhaust stream though. And, you are right about the runability being at idle, although it does exist a short period off-idle.

As to the stated reasons for removing it... Say no more...

[GeneralDisorder]

I was simply pointing out that BDG's methods and REASONS for removing it are unfounded, and simply absurd.

 

You see what I mean now right??

 

GD

[Proteus503]

Removing the EGR does not effect your engine life or your mileage.

 

EGR is only present to reduce emmissions.

 

Toyota ditched their EGR systems in the year 2000. They opted, instead, to add a second catalytic converter. They did this for two reasons:

 

1: maintain low emmissions

2: increase reliability... EGR valves fail, vacuum lines crack / rupture / get cut / accidentally pulled out / etc... a second catalytic is a much more reliable way to maintain low emmissions.

 

just thought you might like to hear another side to the story.

 

continue dead horse beating...