Another Victim of Head Gasket Failure!!!

[Green Beast]

So my wife called me a few weeks ago sitting on the side of the road with an 2000 Subaru Outback.....I'm a freak about service issues and change the oil every 3000 miles exactly. I tried replacing the thermostat and radiator cap. No luck. I pressure/flow checked the radiator...No luck. Sure enough it turned out to be the head gasket...(Internal Leak from what I can tell). The car has 149,000 on it. Mostly Highway miles. I called Subaru who promply told me that this was one of the problem cars and it did recieve the recall treatment at 76,000 miles. The rep. advised me to take it to a dealer for inspection. I told the lady that I didnt want to face any further charges for a dignosis and asked what would be done. The rep. told me that Subaru has NEVER turned down assistance on the head gasket problems with the Outback and I had nothing to lose. I took it to a dealer that evening. The factory rep. looked at the "PAPERWORK" the next day. The dealer stated that they would only look at the car after charging a diagnosis fee because, "They dont work for free". I called Subaru back today and asked the status of the car. The Rep. told me that they were not willing to help out with the car because of the mileage but would offer me $500 customer loyalty towards a new Subaru. I respectfully stated no thanks and told them this was not what I was told....I realize the car has high miles and is out of warranty but we all know this is a problem child that has been troubling Subaru owners for years. Its a shame they wont step up to the plate and make things right. I have an Infinti with 170,000, a Chevy S-10 pick up with 150,000 miles, and just sold a Honda Accord with 230,000 miles, none of which have had a wrench on them other than normal service. Guess I've had my last Subaru.

[nipper]

I hate to say this, but after 140,000 miles personally its just wear and tear. There are less HG failures at high mileage due to HG design then at low mileage. I had a honda civic that blew a HG at 140,000 miles, but i did not curse honda for it. I have to side with subaru on this one. They cant warrenty a HG for ever.

I think your being a bit unreasonable, but to each their own.

 

nipper

[montana105]

Gotta side with Nipper on this one,had a 79 Ford truck with hard service with 250,000 miles,supposedly a 100,000 mile engine at best at the time,just comes with the flow,have had foreign and domestic engines go to both extremes, at anything over 100,000 you're doing good,of course you didn't provide maintenance records( as the dealer says)

[idosubaru]

ask for them to apply the $500 to labor and this motor will go beyond the honda accord mileage almost garaunteed. at what mileage should they quit honoring warranty work?

 

taking one incident and completely writing off any brand is not in your best interest. that kind of operational philosophy really does you harm in the long run. dealers are dealers, to think honda and chevy are the holy grail of manufacturers and don't make good financial decisions that in the end piss off consumers is completely rediculous. but like nipper said, to each his own.

 

i mean this in a constructive way....if this is how you're affected by poor consumer decisions and an unwillingness to deal with issues, then i'd suggest changing the way you make decisions. don't buy an engine or transmission that hasn't been in production for at least 7 years, and do some research on the vehicles you're buying. honda, chevy, dodge, toyota...have all made mistakes in car designs and all have good and bad reputations from consumers. talk to people that know alot about cars, have worked on alot of cars and you'll find this out. anecdotally make judgement calls based on personal experience and you don't help yourself at all.

[otis]

I have to agree with nipper and montana. I don't think Subaru has any obligation for a HG failure at 150k miles.

 

BUT...

 

if the subaru rep said they would help, then they should help. He shouldn't have made an empty promise.

[brus brother]

I like the suggestion of asking they apply the $500 "good will" to the existing engine. The cost of advertising being what it is, that money may be well spent if it keeps that acidic taste off your tongue when you speak to others about your experience.

[msmithmmx]

Have you spent much money on repairs over the years on this car. If not you could have this fixed for 1500. In the end you will have an engine that will do another 100K and only have spent 1500. But I do disagree that a busted head gasket is normal wear and tear @ 150K

[Green Beast]

I wasnt asking them to warranty it forever. My biggest problem with the whole mess is:

A. Its a problem that was "Patched" up from the beginning. As others have said its like making the fuse longer on the time bomb.

B They said they would provide some assistance.

 

I dont think any of the manufactures are the holy grail. From the minute you pull on the lot people swarm you looking to make a buck. I dont trust any of them. As for the car. I will fix it. My wife loves it. I just hoped we wouldnt run into such a mess after a flawless service record. I could swallow it better if I was out beating on the motor and a bearing let loose or something like that. But for an issue that they KNOW is a problem it just gets you that your know paying for it.

[Ranger83]

What I don't understand is why people come to this forum; read about the head gasket problems; then don't have them replaced as a maintenance item after 120,000 miles or so.

 

I was highly skeptical about this problem on our 97's but after having several friends blow them, I had the HG replaced at 140,000 miles. One of the heads was warped a bit and needed milling.

 

I sold it to my sister-in-law, who traded it in at 187,000 miles, running perfectly. So the cost of the job was less than 3 cents a mile.

 

 

WARNING: If you drive a Subaru 2.5, replace the head gaskets as a maintenance item at 120,000 miles!!!

[idosubaru]

i'm at my parents house right now...they live right by the Hanover Watershed, Longarm lake i believe they call it. probably only a few miles from you. i almost always deal with the Hanover Subaru guys, have you tried talking to them much at all? i only ever had workings with the parts department since i do all my own work, but they were always about 50 times nicer than the dealers around baltimore...and i might be underestimating that.

 

as for the "dont' work for free" comment. tell them they don't need to diagnose it, tell them you know the headgasket is bad and ask what they'll do for you. tell them you'll pay the $79 diagnosis fee if they tell you what they'll do once they test and find out what you already told them, and they're offer is acceptable. might want to read through and search some threads here, lots of people have posted success in having these fixed (but plenty have not either), but might be worth a shot to see if anyone else had it done at your mileage.

 

I could swallow it better if I was out beating on the motor and a bearing let loose or something like that. But for an issue that they KNOW is a problem it just gets you that your know paying for it.

all manufacturers have "issues" that are known. some electrical, head gaskets (others have these issues), wheel bearings, brake issues, 4WD issues, transmission issues.....it is not uncommon for particular makes, models, engines, chassis or transmissions to have one particular item that fails before the rest. makes sense really. it just so happens yours sucks bad and is expensive, so i understand the annoyance. but all manufacturers are probably aware of their weak points, but there are other considerations when determining how to handle them. and it also just so happens that Subaru's have fewer of these issues than other makes, making them and excellent choice if you like reliability, keep cars a long time and don't want to waste lots of time working on them. but...the caveat is you bought the one model that has the most issues in recent memory - TB (if it's an auto) and HG.

 

"they said they'd provide assistance", well you talked to a shady person. maybe you're lucky, but in my experience people like that are everywhere. he was delegating responsibility (service rep telling you they would provide assistance). you go to the dealer and get pissed at them and his job is done. and he would probably say "$500 towards a new car is assistance" to which you and I would call that what it is "BS". have you tried calling him back and asking about your "assistance"?

[The Dude]

I respect your opinion, but if someone should expect to replace the head gaskets on a Subaru at 120,000 miles THEN IT SHOULD BE LISTED IN THE SUBARU MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE. That's right, Mr.& Mrs. John Q. Public deserve some kind of heads up that the car they are buying is going to require a $1,200-$1,500 repair job at 120,000 miles. Then they can make an INFORMED DECISION and probably buy a Toyota instead.

Replacing the head gaskets is NOT scheduled maintenance for a normally aspirated engine. The head gaskets should last the life of the engine. Other manufacturers can make head gaskets last over 200,000 miles, why can't Subaru? Subaru has had a decade to perfect the 2.5L engine. Have they? I'm not so sure.

I'm a Subaru fan, but I'm not a Subaru apologist, there's a big difference. When Subaru scews up, I'm calling them on it. And if I get burned by my 2006 Forester, I'm buying something else next go round. It's just that simple.

[otis]

Maybe the HG should last the life of the car. Maybe the HG design is flawed. And maybe SOA should provide goodwill.

 

But let's keep in mind that Subaru's obligation to fix any defects expire after 60k miles- sometimes after 100k miles for this HG issue. When you buy a used car, the burden is on the buyer to fix any problems (with rare exception). If you want a manufacturer to "stand" behind its product, buy new. If you buy a used honda or toyota, they are no more likely to stand behind their cars after the warrenty expires.

 

To Subaru's credit, they've done a good job keeping the HG issue quiet. my guess would be the only people who know about it are people who visit sites like this. (no mention of HG at edmunds, MSN auto, CR etc...) So this plays well for them- this HG "issue" won't affect future sales. Bad news for us who have HG problems because we make up such a small population, that we will never get the "word" out that there is a HG issue which would give us leverage to force subaru to fix it. besides, as far as I understand it, the newer models don't have this issue so it wouldn't be an issue for future car sales anyway.

 

This kinda reminds me with an issue I had with a cell phone carrier. I got fed up, canceled and signed with a differnt carrier, only to get fed up with their problems. What's a consumer to do? I guess just bend over and grin. ahh, I guess this is what we (as consumers) get when we make low price our only selection criteria for purchases.

 

Bottom line, I'm upset with my subaru as my forester has gotten it's 2nd HG leak (now at 108k), but what can I do?? If I jump ship, who is to say I won't have a different issue with another brand. (beleive me, I've heard plenty of "horror" stories from every other brand) Subaru is nothing out of the ordinary- they are just keeping up with the "bar."

[idosubaru]

good point, to their credit Subaru has done a better job than i expected them to do (but i'm skeptical of dealers anyway). why is why i recommend continuing to talk to them and search here for others experience resolving this. this isn't really about what Subaru should and shouldn't do. few on here could run a business successfully so it's no surprise that this thread gets side tracked into rants.

 

a dozen years? the EJ25 was only 4 years old when his 2000 was made, that's not very old at all. it is wise to buy an engine that has been around for 5 to 7 years regardless of make or model to ensure issues are resolved in it. your decision making should reflect your sensitivity to this kind of information.

 

subaru has no problem making long lived engines for decades. your short sighted view that one mistake means "buy toyota", isn't logical - the end result would be having one manufacturer in the world...or even none considering all manufacturers make mistakes. Subaru made the EA81, EA82, ER27, EG33, EJ22...and others for decades before the 2.5....and they all easily attain 200,000 miles. and the EJ25 easily makes over 200,000 with the possibility of an undesirable headgasket replacement in there. if one issue runs you away from a brand then you could theoretically not buy anything...because every manufacturer has made mistakes, just hope you don't buy them i guess if you like rolling the dice?

[msmithmmx]

TO THE MODERATOR: Can we have a Forum just for complaining and or head gasket issues. Tired of seeing the same thing everyday. From: Wrenchless in PA.

[nipper]

No one is bullit proof:

Toyota

http://yotarepair.com/breakingnews.html

Lexus

http://us.lexusownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32406

GM

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/15/gm-to-handle-intake-manifold-gasket-problem-on-a-case-by-case-ba/

Honda Transmission

http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?scid=93&did=908

http://forums.carreview.com/showthread.php?t=113

 

 

Why headgaskets fail (in general)

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us80222.htm

 

 

I can go on about chrysler awd with failing one way clutches that are very expensive, BMW transmissions that like to be in drive and reverse at the same time (and they dont know why).

 

One thing about the subaru head gasket, once its fixed, its fixed. I will take that any day over the BMW issue, or the honda tranny issue.

 

Another thing, what determins the llife of a car. Is the life when the doors fall off, a major mechanical failure at over 100,000 miles, or the cost of repair exceedes the cars dollar value. Engineered life is 100,000 miles when most these cars weere built (now i think its 130,000).

Nothing lasts for ever. Smaller engines are taxed more and there for will have a major breakdown sooner. Larger engines if they arent fully taxed will go on for quite some time. A truck thats been working all its life may throw a rod at 140,000, and that be quite respecatble. A Headgasket is not a major thing to doom an engine. What dooms the engine is if the engine gets cooked after that, or throws a rod through the block.

 

 

nipper

[Martinjmpr]

Indeed, almost all cars have some "issues" that show up after a while. My last long-term vehicle, a 1990 Mitsubishi Montero, started burning oil excessively at around 80k miles. This was a well known problem with the 3.0l V-6 motor, caused by the valve guides slipping down, or something like that. It was so well known that any decent Mitsubishi shop had a "service package" for exactly this issue. Cost was around $1500, P&L included. I finally had it done around 130k and the truck was running fine when I sold it for $3300 at 147k.

 

Now, $1500 for repairs sounds like a lot, but it depends on how you think about it. It wasn't that long ago - maybe 20-25 years - that cars had 5 digit odometers because by the time a car hit 100,000 miles, it was usually ready for a complete rebuild or at the very least some serious work. Nowadays we routinely expect our vehicles to last 150k, 200k, or even beyond. But every mechanical thing is going to wear out or break eventually, especially a car which gets so much abuse just from the activities of daily driving.

 

The other thing to think about is this: If a car has over 100k on it, it's usually paid for. IOW, you aren't making car payments on it. So what is $1500 - maybe 5 car payments? Hell, nowadays, some people are paying upwards of $500/ month on a new car. So just imagine that you are making 3 to 5 "car payments", and after that, you have an engine that will last at least another 100k.

 

No head gasket issues for me yet (knock wood!) but at 120k, if I were to have such an issue, I'd bite the bullet, have the work done (there are plenty of independent Subie shops in Colorado and most of them will do a 2.5 HG for about $1300) and drive on. I wouldn't be happy about it, but if the alternative was getting myself into a new vehicle that would cost me $350-$400 a month for the next 5 years, it's a no brainer. The car is so good in every other respect that I'm willing to give Subaru the benefit of the doubt on this one.

[idosubaru]

nice links nipper. and that's just the tip of the ice berg...i won't start a hijack on the ones that i know about.

 

complaining/common issues forum is an interesting idea, there probably is a good way to manage these kinds of things. on the same note - might want to post that in the site suggestion forum and see what they come up with or see if it's already been discussed (it has).

[bgd73]

I am an optimist about cars, even after learning there are entire generations forgotten due to the embarrassing mistakes by engineers, then there are those not quite forgotten, doing the unthinkable to possible record breaking. the complaints are necessary out loud by us real people and spenders- it avoids the marketing digging at your wallet with a smile never admitting that possibly 10 years of a flawed design is just that...

I am still chuckling at the thought of a 69 ford falcon with a v8 that racked over 3 times, no repairs and 13 inch tires and got over 25mpg more often than not... or the 14000 dollar chevy corsica that could explode drivelines so violently at any moment driving normally an entire new setup would have to be swapped to not even see another 100k with same problems. Newer Subaru is just another example. The old ones are forgotten, unsupported, and by far the most popular economically and durability and maintenance. I hope there are no grudges for big money spenders to create yet another extreme in the auto world (Like the rwd v8 now? its like an exotic 40k car just to think of having one.) .There are alot of extremes generated because of these flaws, I can't wait to see what I will be laughing out loud about next..I am never owning a newer subaru. Not even taking it personally.

good luck to the poster of this thread. 149k may just have eweak enough compression to hang onto a gasket until the rings worn.

[montana105]

After re-reading your original post I agree that you are due some finacial help from whoever told you they'd do you right,but can you prove it? If not,so be it chalk it up to experience. I had a 1989 Ford Taurus with a known 3.8 head gasket issue, i made it to 200,000 miles with 3 HG changes,was just hanging on till the car fell apart,tranny finally crapped and I bought my 93 Legacy L wagon.The point is that Ford knew it had a problem and did nothing to correct the problem or help out owners! would it stop me from buying another Ford? No, having been around all makes of cars since I was a youngster watching my dad make an honest living turning wrenches I've learned that all makes of cars have issues,even the infallable Toyota Camary likes to eat belts with the A/C seizing up, just to point to the up and rising king of the world,Toyota wouldn't back it up on a car with only 120,000 miles.That was an 800.00 bill to correct that problem on my sisters car. Maybe the posts are right about making it a required maintenance item but also look at how many owners get beyond the 150,000 mile mark without it and I don't see Subaru doing that,as Nipper said the expectancy nowadays is somewhere around 130,000 miles.if you love the car put a new engine in it otherwise offer it up to a junk yard and let other happy Subie owners nab the parts off of it. I'm not trying to be a hard rump roast with this thread and I hope it doesn't come across that way. John

[cookie]

My last Mercedes had a few interesting quirks. It would wear out cams at about 90,000 miles, I had three.

The most interesting one was the front damper. It had a rubber core that could slip and cost $700 just for the part. It went twice when I turned the AC on in spite of fitting the upgraded type. Folks used to pay a couple grand when it happened off warranty. I just lost a damper, a tow, and a weekend.

Yep, they all have issues. I've done two toyota head gaskets for friends myself.

[Prospeeder]

Yea i dont think Honda or toyota are god thats for sure, my sister bought a new 2006 Civic Sedan, the CV joint blew out at like 1500-2000 miles, lol. Sounds like a great start for having a car.

[mykingcrab]

One thing about the subaru head gasket, once its fixed, its fixed. I will take that any day over the BMW issue, or the honda tranny issue.

[otis]

One thing about the subaru head gasket, once its fixed, its fixed. I will take that any day over the BMW issue, or the honda tranny issue.

Just my luck, I get the lemon of the group... 2nd HG for me.

 

I think we have to get a little perspective here. going back to the OP, a sample size of 1 does not represent the entire population. It's about as ludicrous as seeing someone on tv who buys a lottery ticket then wins the jackpot and think that if you buy a ticket, you'll win too. I have had my bmw for 7 yrs and while it's far from perfect, it really hasn't given me any major problems (aside from depreciation, that car has been cheaper to maintain/repair than my subaru). yet I have heard of a number of problems with that car (the worst is probably the sub-frame cracking which seems to be pretty rampant). Did I get lucky? are the stories overblown? who knows- you just roll the dice sometimes.

 

You can buy another car like honda and toyota and chances are good you will have a good experience. But then again, you can buy another subaru, and I'm willing to bet you'll also have a good experience. But I will also say this- if you buy a used car out of warrenty, I'm about 99% sure no manufacturer (even the great honda or toyota) will pay for your repairs if you have a problem.

 

As a consumer and a capitalist, you have to do what you think is right. If that means severing ties with subaru, that's fine. But as an amateur statistician, don't correlate consumer sastisfaction with brand loyalty/disloyalty- in my observations, there is no correlation.

[cookie]

I also have a BMW, an M Roadster. And yes it has been cheaper to maintain also than my Forester. They do have thier problems too, the cooling system is better to change out at a far lower mileage than Subarus.

A number of BMW's problems come from thier quest for lightness and horsepower, such as the cracking issues in the 3 series. No such problems with Subaru there as Subaru seems to know how folks use these cars.

BMW buys thier auto trannies from GM and ZF and have had major problems with both.

[hankosolder2]

I personally think the 2.5 HG issue is unacceptable; Subaru has been having HG problems for almost ten years...phase I and phase II EJ25s...with the added bonus of piston slap thrown in. With other manufacturers, you can avoid the problematic drivetrain combinations and still have wide choice of models to choose from (i.e. don't buy a Honda with the V6 /automatic trans combo & you're good to go.) In the USA, Subaru uses the EJ25 pretty much across the board, except for the H6 cars....the 2.0 turbo is gone from the WRX now, right? Don't get me wrong, I like Subarus, but Subaru deserves every bit of grief they get over these issues...and it is understandable that a customer who had a "mickey mouse" repair such as coolant conditioner (done under warranty) should resent having to pay to do the job properly later, even if the car is at 150K.

 

Nathan