idosubaru Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Subaru has been having HG problems for almost ten years 7 years. HG issues were 1996-2002. once produced you can't expect it to go away. since 2003 they don't have issues and are not "having" HG problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msmithmmx Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 I also have a BMW, an M Roadster. And yes it has been cheaper to maintain also than my Forester. They do have thier problems too, the cooling system is better to change out at a far lower mileage than Subarus. A number of BMW's problems come from thier quest for lightness and horsepower, such as the cracking issues in the 3 series. No such problems with Subaru there as Subaru seems to know how folks use these cars. BMW buys thier auto trannies from GM and ZF and have had major problems with both. Cookie, you left off the fact that you probally don't drive those BMW's daily and leave all the work to the Subaru (as you should). Regardless, I can't belive its has been cheaper to maintain those cars. Question for all, When is the last time you have seen an old BMW on the road? When is the last time you have seen an old Subaru on the road? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otis Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Cookie, you left off the fact that you probally don't drive those BMW's daily and leave all the work to the Subaru (as you should). Regardless, I can't belive its has been cheaper to maintain those cars. Question for all, When is the last time you have seen an old BMW on the road? When is the last time you have seen an old Subaru on the road? I also made the same claim so let me take a shot. Remember one of my FIRST claims- that a sample size of 1 does not represent a population. I never said (and neither did cookie) that bmws were more reliable than subarus... my only point was that I have spent the same amount of money for the 7 years I've owned a bmw than the 3 years for the subaru. For whatever reason, i had a great bmw dealer and a lousy subaru dealer and the bmw dealer went out of his way to get bmw to pay for various repairs after warrenty. and also mine was an apple/orange comparison (the bmw had warrenty and free maintenance for 3 yrs- I'm just counting the last 4 yrs vs the last 3 for the subaru). my point was that just because a car has a certain reputation for quality, doesn't translate into how much you will spend (ie subaru has a better reputation, yet I spent more on the subaru. 6 out of 10 bmw/subaru owners may find the opposite true. My "bad" experience with subaru would not stop me from buying another sub. Truthfully, I probably will not buy another bmw either. Unlike some people, I don't let ONE experience ENTIRELY dictate my future decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellow yellow Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Cookie, you left off the fact that you probally don't drive those BMW's daily and leave all the work to the Subaru (as you should). Regardless, I can't belive its has been cheaper to maintain those cars. Question for all, When is the last time you have seen an old BMW on the road? When is the last time you have seen an old Subaru on the road? I don't know anything about this head gasket problem, but my wife has a 98 forester with a 2.5 engine that has 186,00 miles,guess i'll be replacing head gasket when and if it goes out.The ony thing i know is for all the time everyone has spent talking about this i could have most of the repair already completed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Question for all, When is the last time you have seen an old BMW on the road? who can tell, all those bmw's look alike to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 7 years. HG issues were 1996-2002. once produced you can't expect it to go away. since 2003 they don't have issues and are not "having" HG problems. Gary- that's a good point, but do you think that '03s and up have had a long enough service history to be sure that the problems are solved? I hope that they are...I don't know about you, but it's hard for me to feel comfortable recommending a Suby to friends looking for a pre '03 used car, knowing that they might be stung with a HG issue. I still think that 7 years was a pretty long time not to get it sorted out, especially considering that after the Phase I EJ25 issues, Subaru had a good opportunity to make improvements when designing the Phase II SOHC EJ25, and managed to engineer in HG issues on that engine too. Anyway...Happy New Year! Here's to solid sealing between the heads and block in the coming year! Nathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 but it's hard for me to feel comfortable recommending a Suby to friends looking for a pre '03 used car, i agree entirely. but knowing is a good thing and the 03 and later models seem solid with few issues. it is annoying not being able to recommend 96-2002 soobs, i don't either - not without explaining the risks involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortlid Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 7 years. HG issues were 1996-2002. once produced you can't expect it to go away. since 2003 they don't have issues and are not "having" HG problems. '03 don't have HG issues. I beg to differ. I just posted about my Mother's '03 GT sedan with PERFECT service records owned since new with 43,000 miles on it that JUST had the drivers side headgasket fail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 '03 don't have HG issues. I beg to differ. I just posted about my Mother's '03 GT sedan with PERFECT service records owned since new with 43,000 miles on it that JUST had the drivers side headgasket fail! some place in 03 they made the design change, I just can't peg down when. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 The BMW is my daily driver. The Subaru does the chores. If BMW had not offered 4 years free maintenence and my particular Subaru had not required head gaskets and clutch it would be about equal. this was just a function of the fact that Subaru installed the organic clutches and the mediocre head gaskets in 99. What this does not take into acount is that the BMW cost almost twice as much as a Subaru. For twice as much money I don't really expect my head gaskets to blow. I bet if you went cost per mile the Subaru might win because it was so much less expensive to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 i saw an ad for a 96 outback wagon w/ "250k miles, needs engine work." yes the head gasket is leaking into the coolant. so is this an example of a bad design, poor workmanship, or way better-than-average enginering in a car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 i saw an ad for a 96 outback wagon w/ "250k miles, needs engine work." was it proven to be original gaskets though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 I'm not sure of Subaru production dates, but often about 50% of a given year car may be produced the prior year. This would make it even tricker to see when a gasket released in 03 hit the production line. they are going to use up currnet stocks before the new ones are installed after all, and the engines are usually built before the cars, sometimes up to a year. Look at American production of the phase 2. The Japanese lines got it a year before the American lines. When we shipped Toyota stuff to Fremont for assembly the dates on the containers for powertain stuff were often several months behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 I personally think the 2.5 HG issue is unacceptable; Subaru has been having HG problems for almost ten years...phase I and phase II EJ25s...with the added bonus of piston slap thrown in. With other manufacturers, you can avoid the problematic drivetrain combinations and still have wide choice of models to choose from (i.e. don't buy a Honda with the V6 /automatic trans combo & you're good to go.) In the USA, Subaru uses the EJ25 pretty much across the board, except for the H6 cars....the 2.0 turbo is gone from the WRX now, right? Don't get me wrong, I like Subarus, but Subaru deserves every bit of grief they get over these issues...and it is understandable that a customer who had a "mickey mouse" repair such as coolant conditioner (done under warranty) should resent having to pay to do the job properly later, even if the car is at 150K. Nathan I agree....while I love subarus and swear by them...the company really got away with murder as this HG issue never really got out in the public like perhaps it should have,,,,maybe the subsequent public pressure might have forced them to do more. look at it realisticaly....4 years go by and they come up with the mickey mouse conditioner fix???....and people still end up with problems later???...with these kind of actions (or non-actions in really fixing the root cause) subaru owes more to the public that the standard warranty. It was flawed engineering ,,,,and it went on far too long. Subaru definitely deserves more grief on this issue....think again...look how LONG this issue has been an issue. I am a true subaru loyalist....but for you guys defending saying 100-120K HG failures should be acceptable...I think you are being loyal to a fault Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 well my guess is that if you weren't used to subaru engines running 250k miles, you'd be happy with 120k. i know i was delighted that the trans in my mini-van wennt 116k instead of 66k like my neighbors. but some one posted here recently thet they thought some of the problems with the 2.5L engine were due to over doing it on a great 2.2 design. maybe if they hadn't had the size limitations of the impreza and legacy, both of which used to run 1.8L engines, maybe they would have made it wider, allowing for a longer skirt piston. maybe if it were larger it would have closed deck and not so much HG failure. maybe, maybe, maybe......... not all 2.5's fail, but clearly more 2.5s fail than 2.2's. it always surprises me when i hear about a 2.2 HG. but it does happen. my guess is that subaru regrets the 2.5 problems but they think we deresve them to a degree, we wanted a more powerful engine and they gave it to us. so we get what we asked for, but there is a trade off. shouldn't be but there is. I agree....while I love subarus and swear by them...the company really got away with murder as this HG issue never really got out in the public like perhaps it should have,,,,maybe the subsequent public pressure might have forced them to do more.look at it realisticaly....4 years go by and they come up with the mickey mouse conditioner fix???....and people still end up with problems later???...with these kind of actions (or non-actions in really fixing the root cause) subaru owes more to the public that the standard warranty. It was flawed engineering ,,,,and it went on far too long. Subaru definitely deserves more grief on this issue....think again...look how LONG this issue has been an issue. I am a true subaru loyalist....but for you guys defending saying 100-120K HG failures should be acceptable...I think you are being loyal to a fault Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 well my guess is that if you weren't used to subaru engines running 250k miles, you'd be happy with 120k. i know i was delighted that the trans in my mini-van wennt 116k instead of 66k like my neighbors. but some one posted here recently thet they thought some of the problems with the 2.5L engine were due to over doing it on a great 2.2 design. maybe if they hadn't had the size limitations of the impreza and legacy, both of which used to run 1.8L engines, maybe they would have made it wider, allowing for a longer skirt piston. maybe if it were larger it would have closed deck and not so much HG failure. maybe, maybe, maybe......... not all 2.5's fail, but clearly more 2.5s fail than 2.2's. it always surprises me when i hear about a 2.2 HG. but it does happen. my guess is that subaru regrets the 2.5 problems but they think we deresve them to a degree, we wanted a more powerful engine and they gave it to us. so we get what we asked for, but there is a trade off. shouldn't be but there is. John...tell me you're joking with me....you're reasoning is scaring me... "my guess is that subaru regrets the 2.5 problems but they think we deresve them to a degree, we wanted a more powerful engine and they gave it to us. so we get what we asked for, but there is a trade off. " Subaru wasn't doing anything for US...they were doing what any "for-profit" company does....design and engineer more and better products to benefit themselves and their shareholders.... WE wanted a bigger engine so subaru did it for US???,,,they were doing it for their own pocketbooks.....they did a piss poor design and it's OUR fault...? So....we ask Doctors and scientists for something to prolong our lives...they come up with a new pill which gives us another 20 years,,,,but due to crappy engineering, within the first 4 years the person becomes a parapalegic......and this is OUR fault??? There's a thing called accountability....and this is becoming sadly lacking ithese days Even regarding personal actions and decisions.....and it seems so many people these days are too worried about political correctness to really call a spade a spade (no offense to you John...I just don't see any logic to your thinking) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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