Voluptuary5 Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Hey all, I just joined this forum today with the hopes of finding the answer some problems I’ve been having with my 1995 Subaru legacy. I apologize in advance is this is a redundant post but I tried the search feature and nothing come up in regards to losing AWD. I lost the AWD in my Legacy last winter but now I want it back as winter is here again and almost getting stuck a couple of times--something completely unheard of previously. I’d also like to get back up to the mountains without having to worry. I called the dealer and asked if they had any suggestions and unfortunately they had no ideas since they had never heard of it happening. In an attempt to minimize any damage that might occur if it was a transmission issue, I immediately put the FWD fuse in and have been driving it this way since. Does anyone have any suggestions as to the problem and if this can be easily fixed by me or is this a dealer issue? My guess is that it is electrical because I never heard anything break or any grinding. One more piece that may help. It rains ALL THE TIME here in Western Oregon. Not long after my AWD went out, I had an electrical problem. Had everything tested and nothing came up. Afterwards, I simply removed and cleaned all the major electrical wires and contacts which completely fixed all of my problems. Might there be an electrical contact to the AWD solenoid that may be a problem? Where exactly are the electrical controls for the AWD? Anyway, sorry to be so long-winded but thank you in advance to anyone that can help! Happy New Year! -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Sounds like the clutches or duty solenoid to me. This is a pretty standard problem and there are folks on this board who have pulled the rear off the tranny and fixed it themselves. I think Subaru offers the pieces together and I'm very surprised someone has not told you this. First I'd check the wiring and then change the rear part of the tranny if it were mine. Search under duty solenoid and I bet you get a lot of hits plus some of the automatic folks will chime in when they notice this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 how many miles on the car, when was the last time the trans fluid was changed.?? what is/was the car doing that led you to believe the AWD had failed? did it fail as in no power to the rear wheels or do you have torque bind? torque bind is when there is shuddering and jumping when making tight turns at slow speeds. you can check it by removing the FWD fuse and turning tight circles. if you have TB and the fuse makes it go away, the good news is that having the a/t fluid flushed may help. on 95's TB can be caused by dirty fliud and a gummed up AWD unit. if you have TB and the fuse does not make it go away, then you clutch plates are probably bad. new clutch pack (a.k.a. rear extention housing) is about $850 at the dealer. or just buy and install a used trans. if there is no power to the rear wheels even when the fuse is out, well then that's another isue all together. probably time for a used trans. you can get a trans swapped out for 300 - 400$ at a local shop.(plus the trans.) ebay.: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Subaru-Legacy-2-2L-AWD-Auto-Transmission-1996-75K_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33727QQihZ018QQitemZ280064536121QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW craigslist.org.: http://crazedlist.org/ or go to "forum jump" at the bottom of the page and jump to marketplace, classifieds: wanted. good luck, john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Some reading on 4EAT operation: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/4EAT.pdf http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/02Winter4EATDiagServ.pdf http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/02Winter4EATTransOp.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voluptuary5 Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 Sounds like the clutches or duty solenoid to me. This is a pretty standard problem and there are folks on this board who have pulled the rear off the tranny and fixed it themselves. I think Subaru offers the pieces together and I'm very surprised someone has not told you this. First I'd check the wiring and then change the rear part of the tranny if it were mine.Search under duty solenoid and I bet you get a lot of hits plus some of the automatic folks will chime in when they notice this. Thank you for your quick reply, Cookie! This is what I was afraid of--an internal mechanical problem. I was just hoping to flip the switch from "broken" to "fixed" and go from there but I can't seem to find the switch... Not sure why the mechanics didn't know about this. I'll try 'em again--maybe this time armed with a little more information. I'll try the search with "duty solenoid". Sorry for the redundancy--I didn't even think to try it. Thanks again, -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voluptuary5 Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 how many miles on the car, when was the last time the trans fluid was changed.?? what is/was the car doing that led you to believe the AWD had failed? did it fail as in no power to the rear wheels or do you have torque bind? torque bind is when there is shuddering and jumping when making tight turns at slow speeds. you can check it by removing the FWD fuse and turning tight circles. if you have TB and the fuse makes it go away, the good news is that having the a/t fluid flushed may help. on 95's TB can be caused by dirty fliud and a gummed up AWD unit. if you have TB and the fuse does not make it go away, then you clutch plates are probably bad. new clutch pack (a.k.a. rear extention housing) is about $850 at the dealer. or just buy and install a used trans. if there is no power to the rear wheels even when the fuse is out, well then that's another isue all together. probably time for a used trans. you can get a trans swapped out for 300 - 400$ at a local shop.(plus the trans.) ebay.: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Subaru-Legacy-2-2L-AWD-Auto-Transmission-1996-75K_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33727QQihZ018QQitemZ280064536121QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW craigslist.org.: http://crazedlist.org/ or go to "forum jump" at the bottom of the page and jump to marketplace, classifieds: wanted. good luck, john Thank you as well, John. There are 148,000 miles on her. I have changed the tranny fluid within the last year or two. I'd have to double-check my records to give you an exact date. But definitely within the recommended schedules. And no binding. The rear wheels just aren't turning. I unfortunately realized this on a ski trip. I pulled into a snowy driveway I would never have thought twice about. When I tried to leave in the morning, instead of just pulling right out, I just sat there spinning. I stuck my head out the window, thought I only saw the front wheel spinning. Got a buddy to watch and he confirmed it for me. Then I made him push... That was just the first time I noticed it. I can't tell you how long it had been out for sure. Nothing happened that ever made me suspect there was a problem--just noticed it was out when I lost my winter traction. There were never any indicator lights on the dash that came on, no "pops" or "grinding", and never any binding that I can remember. I've had the mechanic hook her up to the computer at least twice since it has happened and nothing came up but I wasn't really expecting it to. Thanks for the "marketplace" tip. But how can I be sure a used tranny still has its AWD capabilities? Is there any way to check for sure? I assume not without tearing it apart or just installing it with my fingers crossed. Thanks again, -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voluptuary5 Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 Some reading on 4EAT operation:http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/4EAT.pdf http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/02Winter4EATDiagServ.pdf http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/02Winter4EATTransOp.pdf Thanks for the "homework" OB99W! Looks like I got some reading to do! -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 if you buy a used trans, unless you get to drive the car before pulling it, you are going to have to trust the seller to some degree. most low mileage salvage cars weree invloved in acidents and were running well at that time. so chances are a reputable parts seller will deliver a good trans. sometime they just don't know. depending on the price of the trans, the money is about the same. unless you install yourself. trans plus install, 350$ trans plus 350$ install = 700$ some trans are much more.. new extention housing by dealer = 850$. there are not really any risks with the dealer unless he breaks something. john Thank you as well, John. There are 148,000 miles on her. I have changed the tranny fluid within the last year or two. I'd have to double-check my records to give you an exact date. But definitely within the recommended schedules. And no binding. The rear wheels just aren't turning. I unfortunately realized this on a ski trip. I pulled into a snowy driveway I would never have thought twice about. When I tried to leave in the morning, instead of just pulling right out, I just sat there spinning. I stuck my head out the window, thought I only saw the front wheel spinning. Got a buddy to watch and he confirmed it for me. Then I made him push... That was just the first time I noticed it. I can't tell you how long it had been out for sure. Nothing happened that ever made me suspect there was a problem--just noticed it was out when I lost my winter traction. There were never any indicator lights on the dash that came on, no "pops" or "grinding", and never any binding that I can remember. I've had the mechanic hook her up to the computer at least twice since it has happened and nothing came up but I wasn't really expecting it to. Thanks for the "marketplace" tip. But how can I be sure a used tranny still has its AWD capabilities? Is there any way to check for sure? I assume not without tearing it apart or just installing it with my fingers crossed. Thanks again, -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 if it were mine I'd probably just bite the bullet and go for the new $850 rear assembly. A junk yard unit from a car of your year will often have exactly the same problem. Don't ask me how I know, they aren't pretty stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 Your clutches are wiped out. They no longer have the ability to grab each other. If your transmission is working fine (and since you have maintained it well) I would just get the AWD rebuilt. You know this transmission. Why buy one you know nothing about and may have even a worse problem. The other failure mode is Torque bind, where the clutches fuse together. At least with what you have right now the car is driveable. At 187,000 miles i got mine rebuilt and have been very happy. If you plan on keeping the car Have the dealer do the repair. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookie Posted December 29, 2006 Share Posted December 29, 2006 A happy Nipper is important after all! Happy New Year to you and your Subaru! Nip is right, that seems expensive but it should pay in the long run. If you get four more years out of it that's $212 a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voluptuary5 Posted December 29, 2006 Author Share Posted December 29, 2006 Your clutches are wiped out. They no longer have the ability to grab each other. If your transmission is working fine (and since you have maintained it well) I would just get the AWD rebuilt. You know this transmission. Why buy one you know nothing about and may have even a worse problem. The other failure mode is Torque bind, where the clutches fuse together. At least with what you have right now the car is driveable. At 187,000 miles i got mine rebuilt and have been very happy. If you plan on keeping the car Have the dealer do the repair. nipper Thank you nipper!!! Again, that is what I was afraid of--internal mechanical damage. I do plan on keeping this car. I absolutely love it and will drive it until it dies a noble death. It has been the most trouble-free car I have ever owned. I like this car so much I vowed to ALWAYS own a Subaru. Other than schedule maintenance, I have less than $1000 into this car (after ~12 years). I know what you mean about the dealer doing repairs. Half of that $1000 was a timing belt I had an independent mechanic install for me because it was so much cheaper on a recommendation from a friend. On a long road trip to California, it slipped because it was improperly installed and adjusted. This was the only time this car has ever been undriveable (they had a good laugh at my expense at the dealer I got towed to). I know there are very good independent mechanics out there (I have had one in the past) but I have been moving around a lot lately and haven't had time to develop a good relationship with one. Sure it costs more at the dealer but you can't put a price on being stranded in the "middle-of-no-where" Northern California not to mention having to pay to have the timing belt installed twice... If you don't mind me asking, nipper, how much did it cost you to have your AWD rebuilt by the dealer? Thanks again for your insights, -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Well especially for transmission work on the AWD i STONGLY recomend the dealer (at least for diagnoses). Transmission shops are the most evil vile low life scum bags on the face of the planet. You go in there with a flat tire and they will sell you a complete transmission. Dealers really dont like doing transmission work, so if they dont have to do a rebuild, they wont recomend it (mostly). If the dealer isnt familiar with the repair, find another dealer. This is straight forward repair for them. More and more the dealer is competative with the corner garage (especially when you consider its OE parts). They have to be now that the corner garage can work on OBDII systems. My AWD here in downstate NY was 950.00 including a tranny mount and oil change. It took a few days longer then planned, since like i said they had to match up parts. I was very happy with the professionalism of the dealer, and go there for any repair i can not do myself. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 I also recommend a dealer, i got screwed real good by a unexperienced shop, that just changed the solenoid and clutch(got a nice $3000 bill, because they were total idiots there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 I noticed you live in Corvallis. I lived there for 13 years before I moved to Wyoming. The dealership to go to in that area is the Subaru dealership in Corvallis, John and Phils Toyota/Subaru/other. They are hands down, one of the best Subaru dealerships in that peticular area. I thought I'd give that info to you since I can't really give you any hints on what could be wrong besides the ones already given. Good luck! Also, if the tranny needs to be rebuilt, there is one shop that isn't a dealer that I recommend for trannys but its over in Albany. Its on Queens I believe by AA Towing and Wrecking called Continental Transmissions. Seen very good work come from there and have been very helpful to me in the past getting parts for trannys I rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Take the FWD fuse out, and make sure that the AWD is dead. Try doing a burnout on dirt, put it down in 1 and floor it. It should pull pretty hard. If you get just lots of front wheelspin, then you're sure that it's dead. Wouldn't make much sense to fix the AWD system if it's really not broken. Remember AWD will only spin one front and one rear wheel when you're really stuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Which leads to another question, do you have the FWD light on the dash illuminated? nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voluptuary5 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 Caboobaroo, John and Phil's is exactly where I go. I've been very happy with them so far. Plus they are about 5 blocks from my house so it is very easy to drop off and pick up my car. Thanks for the Continental Transmission tip. I'll look 'em up if I decide to fix it. I'm still not sure if I want to put $1000 into it just to have AWD a few times a year when I need it. According to KBB and Edmund's.com my car is only worth between $2000-$4000 (although it's worth a lot more to me than that). I may just have to buck-up and finally use those chains I've been carrying around for years and years but never needed. 91Loyale, you're absolutely right, no need to fix something that isn't broken. But I am certain it is dead. I was just up skiing and tried it again--nothing! I keep hoping it will fix itself so I periodically try it. No luck yet but I'm still hoping for the best. But that is a good point about the one front tire and one rear tire spinning when you're really stuck (I did a lot of 4-wheelin' as a kid and learned that lesson the hard way). Maybe I'm trying it on too slick of a surface. I'll go try it out on my neighbor's front lawn and let you know how it goes... Nipper, the FWD light is on when I have the fuse in and not on when I have the fuse removed. Everything seems to be working fine in that respect. I'm curious though, why do you ask? Hey, thanks again all! You've all been a tremendous help. Thanks for the warm welcome to your forum. -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Caboobaroo, John and Phil's is exactly where I go. I've been very happy with them so far. Plus they are about 5 blocks from my house so it is very easy to drop off and pick up my car. Thanks for the Continental Transmission tip. I'll look 'em up if I decide to fix it. I'm still not sure if I want to put $1000 into it just to have AWD a few times a year when I need it. According to KBB and Edmund's.com my car is only worth between $2000-$4000 (although it's worth a lot more to me than that). I may just have to buck-up and finally use those chains I've been carrying around for years and years but never needed. 91Loyale, you're absolutely right, no need to fix something that isn't broken. But I am certain it is dead. I was just up skiing and tried it again--nothing! I keep hoping it will fix itself so I periodically try it. No luck yet but I'm still hoping for the best. But that is a good point about the one front tire and one rear tire spinning when you're really stuck (I did a lot of 4-wheelin' as a kid and learned that lesson the hard way). Maybe I'm trying it on too slick of a surface. I'll go try it out on my neighbor's front lawn and let you know how it goes... Nipper, the FWD light is on when I have the fuse in and not on when I have the fuse removed. Everything seems to be working fine in that respect. I'm curious though, why do you ask? Hey, thanks again all! You've all been a tremendous help. Thanks for the warm welcome to your forum. -V5 i just asked since i saw you said there was a wiring issue. The FWD light is interesting. Whn you put the fuse in, it tells the TCU to hold open the solenoid. If the solenoid has failed the light wont go on. Just another peice of the puzzle. you can take the fuse out if you want, as its not binding, its just slipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 would wrong/bad fluid contribute to plates slipping? i was wondering if the fluid change he last did had something to do with the failure? like maybe some one put in some extra slippery stuff. sorry about the technical terms. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voluptuary5 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 i just asked since i saw you said there was a wiring issue. The FWD light is interesting. Whn you put the fuse in, it tells the TCU to hold open the solenoid. If the solenoid has failed the light wont go on. Just another peice of the puzzle. you can take the fuse out if you want, as its not binding, its just slipping. Nipper, that was originally why I put the fuse in in the first place. I just left it in after the dealer said it wouldn't hurt anything as it is primarily a front wheel drive car anyway and others had even reported getting slightly better fuel mileage in FWD mode. I also left it in as a reminder to myselft that I no longer had AWD so I wouldn't do anything stupid. And unfortunately (albeit in my more simple way of thinking), I came up with the same conclusion as you. I've just been in denial. So, it is likely some where between the solenoid and the rear wheels; ie, the transmission. Darn it... -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 would wrong/bad fluid contribute to plates slipping? i was wondering if the fluid change he last did had something to do with the failure? like maybe some one put in some extra slippery stuff. sorry about the technical terms. john nope, fluid cnahges are on three year cycles. Sometimes they just go due to age. When its like this its age, when they lock up its mismatched tires or driving on a flat recently. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voluptuary5 Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 would wrong/bad fluid contribute to plates slipping? i was wondering if the fluid change he last did had something to do with the failure? like maybe some one put in some extra slippery stuff. sorry about the technical terms. john John, no need to apologize for the technical terms. I understood exactly what you meant. I might be mistaken but if my memory serves me, the last transmission fluid (slippery stuff) change was after I noticed the AWD was out. Again, I might be making all of this up but I seem to remember telling them about the AWD and to pay special attention to the transmission fluid. They said every thing look perfect (color, level, viscosity, and no metal). When these plates go bad is it just a lack of tension or has something been stipped? Shouldn't I have seen metal in the fluid? -V5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyuunuuya Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 See if any of this is related to your problem http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55651 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 John, no need to apologize for the technical terms. I understood exactly what you meant. I might be mistaken but if my memory serves me, the last transmission fluid (slippery stuff) change was after I noticed the AWD was out. Again, I might be making all of this up but I seem to remember telling them about the AWD and to pay special attention to the transmission fluid. They said every thing look perfect (color, level, viscosity, and no metal). When these plates go bad is it just a lack of tension or has something been stipped? Shouldn't I have seen metal in the fluid? -V5 They just sometimes go when ist a failure like yours. Its mechanical things break. Dont ever worry about material in the fluid, as thats normal. You may even see some metal depending upon what the clutches are made of. Its the big metal chunks you worry about. They go the same as a tranny will slip (which is also rare in these cars). Stuff happens. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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