Lubricants & Additives / Myths & Reality

[1 Lucky Texan]

some info on the Subaru coolant conditioner;

 

http://www.scoobyenthusiast.com/subaru-maintenance/all-about-subaru-cooling-system-conditioner-soa635071

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Thank you for Share that interesting information.

[robm]

Linseed meal! That goes along with the old patch-her-up-to-sell-her-quick use of oatmeal to seal leaky cooling systems.

 

Except the linseed meal may actually harden, the same way linseed oil in paint cures. Usually, it requires oxygen to cure, though. I am not sure how much oxygen will be dissolved in a car's cooling system.

 

Apparently the borax can form a rubbery substance when mixed with PVA glue (plain old Elmer's white glue, for instance). How much do you want to bet that PVA is the "proprietary resin solution"? The goop it forms is actually known as "flubber"!

 

Personally, I have had remarkable success with Solder Seal rad sealer. It comes as gray metallic flakes in a plastic tube about 3 inches long. It sealed a blown Loyale headgasket remarkably well. I wouldn't trust it much further than the nearest scrap yard, but the car went from filling the carport with steam, and filling the rad constantly, to no noticeable steam in the exhaust at all. I have no idea what those flakes are.

[torxxx]

If you are gonna use an additive and not just reg oil, I'm sayin avoid PTFE and roll with Moly. GM coated their entire engines with Moly when they started making the 5.3L Vortec engine and I've seen those run to well over 250k miles with 0 bottom end noise. Moly makes the engines frictionless, meaning the internals dont have to work as hard.

 

 

as for stop leak for cooling systems, dont use it. It has a salt based chemical in it that causes the aluminum to corrode (have a 96 OB 2.5L tore down at work right now and I was shocked to see the amount of damage its done to the coolant passages) Fix what ever is leaking and change coolant every 20k miles and you'll be fine.

 

As for trans additives, I refuse to use it anymore. TransX killed my SVX tranny.

 

Octane boost, makes your fuel more acidic so I avoid that as well. There is only one octance boost type additive thats worth using and I dont know if they even make it anymore. Its called Valv-Tech. When GM first started making the 496 marine engine, they required owners to use that additive because the pump fuel available was too low octane (engine needed 95 oct to run normally)

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

... avoid PTFE and roll with Moly. GM coated their entire engines with Moly when they started making the 5.3L Vortec engine and I've seen those run to well over 250k miles with 0 bottom end noise. Moly makes the engines frictionless, meaning the internals dont have to work as hard...

 

Thank you for that Great information, also I Agree about to avoid PTFE additives.

 

I've Not poured Moly on my "BumbleBeast" yet, but my Wife's "KiaStein" has it and the engine runs smooth, but I believe it is too soon to make an statement about it.

 

I Already purchased a Can of Moly for my BumbleBeast, I'll pour it in the Next oil change.

 

Kind Regards.

[coxy]

One very interesting aspect I have yet to see anyone mention is I use Motorcycle oils rather then car oils,Reason being they do not run any so called friction modifers because of the Wet clutch pack used in motorcycles.

 

When you do some research into Multigrade Oils either synthetic or Mineral based look into oil thickeners,basically what they use are Nylon based miniature additive package that resembles a clock spring spiral when cold it contracts when hot it expands.

The problem with these is any engine such as an EA81 with gears inside mulches up these additives and you can tell as when you change oils on an Engine yhat has not had regular oil changes the first thing that drains is a thick sludgey mess.Basically all of the remnants of this additive package mulched up and coagulated on the bottom of the Oil pan.

 

The most important additive used in Oils be they Mineral or Synthetic based is known as ZDDP,This is the anti wear package and has been steadily reduced over the years,The latest Motor Oil SAE standards have dropped the percentages considerably further simply because the Governments have mandated longer Catalytic Converter Lifr over Engine Life and it does reduce Cat Converter life.

 

Motorcycle oils are exempt from this latest standard so retain higher levels of ZDDP,Mobil 1 Racing 4T 15W50 has one of the highest levels of ZDDP and is used in Australia by HRT (Holden Racing Team) in their V8 Race Engines it is also one of only two oils recommended by Triumph Motorcycles of Hinkley UK.

 

Research into various high performance enthusiasts will find that this particular topic is a hot thread,Look into the MSDS sheets for product data and look up the levels of ZDDP and base your Oils on that criteria for best engine life.

[Quidam]

Yea, the ZDDP thing , anyone with lifters, turbo (ours are journal bearing, not ball or roller bearing), or EA 82 should pay attention.

 

I wonder if the new gen small journal crank, EJ peeps have been bitten by this too. At the end of the day as it stands now, is the three way cat. ZDDP is primarily taken out of oil for that in particular to the extent it has in SN oil.

 

Highest point of friction in an overhead valve engine is lifter to cam lobe interface. If you put a reground cam in an EA 81 lubed with moly with SN oil in the pan,, that increases the odds of wiping those cams out. Traditionally, moly lubes the cam until the ZDDP can take over. That's in short supply with just an SN oil.

 

The old small block Chevy's are priority lifter/cam oiling, lubes cam and lifters first. My LS 6.0 new gen small block is priority main. That's a good thing, and with roller cam, lifters, and rockers is how they were able to change that.

 

Our EA 82 motors are Priority Main engines (first to receive oil from the pump), but this still isn't good news for the bearings and valve train, this SN oil.

 

 

Anyway, here's a good chart.

 

Our old engines were built to run generally twice as much Zinc and phosphorous as what's in SN oil. There are oil's available like this with the additive package restored for our old cars.

 

And stuff like this to add to lesser formulations.

 

Doug

Edited October 2, 2012 by Quidam

[robm]

I don't recommend rad sealers for long term use. But it might it get you out of the bush with a blown head gasket or leaky radiator. The Alumaweld or Solder Seal stuff, powder in a little plastic tube, might be cheap insurance to carry in the tool box when far from civilization.

[maozebong]

so, just recently, i checked an experimental axle, in which the ball bearing cages were dremeled out to fit the CV joint balls more loosely than stock. it has worked beautifully... but that is not the point.

 

Almagard 3752 is by far the best CV grease i have ever used. my cv axle boot broke 3 months ago, and even after putting over 10k miles on a axle with a torn boot, there is still a healthy coat of grease on everything, and more than enough grease still in the cup.

 

almagard doesnt sling out like the rest, and leaves a coating on the axles innards that doesnt wipe off. literally, this grease needs a solvent to be fully removed. it even made less of a mess in the wheel well.

 

even on disassembly, the axle has noticeably less wear than i have ever seen on an axle that has been driven +10k miles with a torn boot.

 

not even kidding, as soon as i get money, im ordering a case of this ************.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Now, What do you think about These?

 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Which one would you choose, and Why?

 

Kind Regards.

[MR_Loyale]

None. I am a cheap bastard and I don't believe in miracles, from a can or otherwise. I did use radiator stop leak years ago though in a pinch.

Edited March 15, 2015 by MR_Loyale

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Completely agree with you about "Stop Leak" junk.

 

---

 

 

But there are some -very Few- additives that has proven great usefullness thru the years.

 

The meaning of this thread is to Find the Useful ones, and dismiss the Harmful ones.

 

So we need each others' experiences and knowledge here.

 

Kind Regards.

[bendecker]

I've had good luck with Lucas (edit: for fuel) in cars with way high mileage. It doesn't seem to do anything for lower mileage cars, but my '93 with 225k miles on it always gets a boost in MPG for a few tanks when I use it.

Edited March 16, 2015 by bendecker

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

You meant the Lucas additive for Fuel.

 

Lucas makes Great additives for Automatic Transmissions and other aplications as well.

 

---

 

By the way, I wrote another Writeup related on How does the Automatic Transmissions' Additives, affects the Differentials, depending on the Lubrication System of the Transmission; you can reach that Writeup, here:

 

~► http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/148220-automatic-transaxle-lubrication-the-differential/

 

Kind Regards.

[soopsoop]

the problem with teflon is when you heat it up it evaporates  like in the pots and pans it will make you sick and once you overheat the they are nothing but dog food bowles and they make your food taste funny when you get them to hot, and engines get hot.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

These Additives Don’t Exist: ~► http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1853/lubricant-additives

 

 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

This is a quotation of the information on the website above, just in case...

 

As good as modern lubricants may be, they are never a panacea for bad lubrication practices. Conversely, real additives can be real problem-solvers that enhance the performance and reliability of both the machine and the lubricant. So, there’s a difference between the real and imaginary. I want you to know the difference. This column will go down the list of imaginary additives and discuss the many misconceptions that pervade the lubrication community. I hate to be a myth-buster, but reality is reality, so let’s get started:

Anti-Dirt
The only remedy for dirty oil is a filter or an oil change. Even better is not having dirty oil in the first place (via routine contaminant exclusion). Don’t imagine that there is some virulent, dirt-curing additive in your lubricant’s formulation. Dirt doesn’t care how sophisticated your lubricant’s chemistry might be. Whether your lubricant emerged from a backroom or a space-age laboratory, dirt will spare no effort to cut, abrade, dent and score your machine surfaces.

Wrong-Oil Forgiver
Lubricants and their additives do not automatically adjust to the environs and needs of the machines within which they are placed. There are thousands of different lubricant formulations on the market for a reason. They are not alike and they don’t perform alike and, hence, users will not receive like results. Precision lubrication is about precisely selecting the right lubricant for the target machine and making sure that particular lubricant is always used and then replaced before its life is done.

Water Zapper
Water exacts an evil curse on lubricants and machines. It accelerates wear, corrosion, microbial growth, friction, additive depletion, aeration, varnish, oxidation … and, well, the list goes on and on. Outside of the limited capability of rust inhibitors, additives don’t stop the penetration and damage exerted by water. Only controlling the invasion and dispersion of water in our lubricants solves these problems.

Oil Starvation Pain-Killer
Despite the assertions of some late-night television infomercials, additives are not a solution for starved oil supply or low oil levels. Lubricants serve many functions beyond simply controlling friction and wear. As such, they need to be present as an entire formulation, not simply a few chemical remnants clinging to the frictional surfaces of our machine.

Varnish and Sludge Pacifier
Varnish and sludge are produced via many oil degradation pathways. Once they get infused into the oil and deposit on machine surfaces, there is no easy solution to eradicate their presence short of an oil change and flush. Additives may help slow the formation of varnish and sludge precursors, but they will do little to pacify damage after they form.

Glycol Neutralizer
Ethylene glycol is mixed with water and used as a coolant in a wide range of machines. When allowed to invade a lubricant, it becomes a pungent contaminant that can wreak havoc in numerous ways. Sadly, the thought that there are lubricant additives that will neutralize the effects of glycol contamination is nothing but a fantasy. As much as 10 percent of all diesel engine lubricants in service have trace amounts of glycol contamination. Many are far more grossly contaminated.

Soot Terminator
Soot can be dispersed by additives, but it can’t be easily expunged. Even dispersed soot causes wear when oil films become contracted, such as in cam lobe/follower contacts and at the ring reversal area on cylinder walls in diesel engines. Soot can also mop up important polar additives and prematurely remove them from active duty.

Over-greasing Elixir
One of the most common root causes of rolling-element bearing failure is over-greasing. This practice damages seals and shields, and causes uncontrolled heat excursions that accelerate wear and lubricant degradation. No additive has the capacity to work as a magic elixir under such distressful conditions.

Conclusion
Reliability emerges from the optimum combination of quality lubricants and best-practice lubrication. Don’t spend more money on premium lubricants hoping you can spend less on lubrication. This is a false economy. There is no substitute for vigilant inspection, frequent and thorough oil analysis, and well-deployed (and engineered) lubrication practices.

No question, today’s additive technology can serve as a solution-provider across a wide range of potential problems that frequently plague machinery. Yet, they are unable to be miracle cures for numerous other maladies. Practitioners need an arsenal of tools and skills to get the desired reliability results. Begin with training and then follow with programmatic structure and procedures. Develop a culture of lubrication excellence. And remember, reliability is everyone’s responsibility.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Have you seen / used this "Carbon Cleaner" by Subaru?

 

[subarubrat]

I commented on this in another thread, but I think it bears fruit here. In exotic cars there is a routine called annual service, that means regardless of mileage, year or other factors you do a total fluid change, oil, trans, diff, brakes, you name it. I can hear the objections already, why dump out engine oil with only 1000 miles on it. The point being that your fluids are always at their optimum, additives too, and contaminants get flushed away. That is why when you work on a 30 year old Lambo the systems look factory fresh. The same applies to our wonderful Subarus, cheap insurance and extended lifespan. And let me add, if you replace a non critical fastener replace it with stainless, rust sucks!

Edited May 4, 2016 by subarubrat

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Well, after Decades (Literally) of using only Mineral 20W~50 motor oil on the EA82 engine of my beloved Subaru "BumbleBeast", I decided to try Synthetic on same number, with Valvoline's High Mileage motor oil, a couple of years ago; Also I went synthetic 15W~40 on the T8D engine of my Wife's car, the "KiaStein"; and both cars suddenly developed an oil Leakage; due to the extra detergents on the Synthetic oil, that removes age old varnish deposits that -somehow- helps the Seals to do their Job.

 

The Leakage on both cars, requires an engine reseal; but due to the Lack of time / money \ spare parts (for the Subie), I only kept refilling the oil as necessary, while I could do the Job; however the Leakage on the Subie is pretty small; maybe because I've used Motor Flushes on its engine, every two or three years; but the Kia's leakage became worse each month; leaking from the rear main seal, where the engine mates to the automatic Transmission.

 

The Kia's leakage went to the point of requiring half quart of oil, weekly, leaving an awful mark on the pavement where it is parked daily... and prior to the recently past Holy Week, I finished to install a Lift Kit that I designed and made, on my Wife's car, and she refused to drive it, until it will be fully Tested, I did many test on it, but didn't suffice to fully convince her, somehow.

 

So, I decided to use the nine days of Vacation from said Holy Week, to do a Trip across three countries of Central America, with my family (Photos here), Testing the Lifted "KiaStein" on the Road, with them; I was completely confident that the small Lift I did, kept the Car's alignment and suspension geometry under Specs, keeping its Handling Behaviour; so I convinced them to do this Trip; however, the Oil Leakage was worrying me, and I we were running out of Time to fix it properly, prior to the Trip...

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

I've never believed too much on oil additives, designed to Stop Leaks on engines; almost all of them have failed, except the QMi but for Manual Transmissions, which still, after many years, has stopped the seals on my Subie's trans, from continuing leaking, somehow.

 

But I needed a fast and reliable solution, to avoid leaking too much motor oil during the above mentioned Trip; so I asked some of my Friends who are old Local Mechanics with vast experience, and two of them told me wonderful stories about a German product, called: "Motor Oil Saver" which is sold in Honduras under two different brands from the same makers; Lubro-Moly and Liqui-Moly:

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

 

Since I was running out of time; I chose to Try one can of this Product on the T8D engine

 

 

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

The thing isn't "Magical" for sure, the leakage continued identically for the first two days of the trip; then it started to decrease in a notably way, to the point that by the end of the 1172 miles long trip; the car almost stopped leaking; it only needs a couple of ounces of motor oil, weekly... Far different from the Half Quart it was leaking weekly, prior to this Treatment.

 

However, I changed the motor oil on the car, and poured fresh 15W~40 Valvoline's high mileage synthetic motor oil, without using any more of that treatment, and despite that the "Motor Oil Saver" treatment only stayed for 1172 miles, the car continues to Not drip oil on the Floor, and is only using two ounces of oil per week.

 

So, this Product is really Outstanding, at least in my own experience, which I decided to share here, in order to Help other drivers that might be in need of this kind of Help. I know I will need to do the seals job in the Future, but I'll do that untill the Leakage becomes worse.

 

For now, it seems to be almost not leaking a drop, and keeps like that without further use of the additive. As ancient chinese wisdom says: "Do not fix what is not broken" ... I'll keep the things going like that, as long as possible.

 

My wife drives her lifted car, fully confident now.

 

Kind Regards.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

I forgot to write, that the car has this persistent "Non-leaking oil" status, since the late days of March, up to date.

 

► Edit: I'll try this on my Subie's EA82 engine, as soon as possible.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Loyale 2.7 Turbo