daeron Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Tonight my subaru started behaving strangely. (87 gl-10, N/A, SPFI) I haven't properly isolated the probelm, so I cannot say reliably when it happens.. but sometimes, while accelerating gently (almost only, hard pedal is mostly OK) it sputters really bad, like its running out of fuel or something. (I'll level with you: it sounds EXACTLY like i just came around a turn at about 40mph with nothing but fumes in the tank... running out of gas) I have also noticed a light gasoline smell coming and going, that has slowly grown more intense.. it is still not MAJOR, but it seems stronger and more prevalent than it did two weeks ago. I have recently cleaned and inspected my MAF, I am throwing no codes. Havent run D-check mode yet, thats tomorrow. Also will be cleaning and checking my CTS connector, and the MAF connector. I tired looking for fuel leaks all around, but couldnt see anything tonight with the spotlight. Fuel filter has been changed recently. Fuel pump is an obvious possibility, but under power it seems A-OK... I have yet to see it happen when I stomp on the gas hard enough to downshift the 3AT. I may be imagining things, but it seemed more common as the car was heating up.. but DEFINITELY not exclusive. It has occurred while at running temp. Just much more common on acceleration in traffic, than if I have an open road in front of me or if I am already rolling. I've had a bad headgasket bubbling compression into my cooling system for a while now. Is this possible evidence that that cylinder is losing compression relative to the others??? The reason it hasn't been fixed yet is simple.. I have been making about 220-240 a week for the last four months. Not enough to eat on, not enough to pay rent on... CERTAINLY not enough to be able to spend 100-200 bux on resealing the motor, JY heads, oil pump seals, etc etc... I'm flat broke, and have been so every day since August. I hate money. Anyhow, any thoughts or tips are appreciated.. I have good ideas where to be looking, just wondering if anyone has any good ideas I haven't thought of, or stories like this complete with the ending. "I did this and this and this, and then finally did this stupid thing and THAT fixed it..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldDiggerRoo Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 My car seems to be doing something similar, it wants to sputter really bad when you're barely on the gas (crusing position mostly) but if you're all off or giving it more than that it's ok. My problem is being caused by the choke sticking on, car is fine when it's not, but has that issue when it's on and warmed up. Not sure what'd you do about it on a fulie car, but sounds like the same symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Do these things have a choke-pulloff? ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 No choke for SPFI. Choke's are exclusively the domain of carbs. Could be a high-pressure side fuel leak. Low fuel pressure reaching the throttle body could account for the sputtering, and the leak itself could account for the smell. As you dump more fuel in (hard throttle), the leak is overpowered by the bigger "leak" of the injector (might still be lean, but you probably wouldn't notice as much). Low fuel demand off idle - fuel pump can't get you proper pressure with a high side leak, and low speeds tend to expose lean conditions more. With the rust on your car.... have you checked the surge pot on the end of the fuel pump? Those guys like to rust out it seems. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldDiggerRoo Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 No choke for SPFI. Choke's are exlusively the domain of carbs. GD Shows how much I know about SPFI cars, now you know why I isht-canned my GL10 and went back to EA81 cars, it's easier to fight an enemy you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Shows how much I know about SPFI cars, now you know why I isht-canned my GL10 and went back to EA81 cars, it's easier to fight an enemy you know! I like both - for different reasons. But I'm weird that way. A Weber is a beautiful thing, but the SPFI is like a cool "gadget" that I can play with. Both are fun in completely different ways for me. Mostly tho, my idea of "fun" is an experiment in hair-loss for others. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I think the MAF is toast. What you describe is exactly what happened on my car (91 Legacy with MPFI) when the MAF was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 I think the MAF is toast. What you describe is exactly what happened on my car (91 Legacy with MPFI) when the MAF was bad. Highly unlikely - the SPFI's run terrible without the MAF. Would be barely driveable if it even stayed running, and it would set off the CEL for sure. Besides - with the rust on his car, it's more likely to be fuel system related. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Highly unlikely - the SPFI's run terrible without the MAF. Would be barely driveable if it even stayed running, and it would set off the CEL for sure. Besides - with the rust on his car, it's more likely to be fuel system related. GD as he said, with the rust on my car... http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=68905&highlight=rust I have read about the fuel pump issue you are talking about. I have to do a search here to find the relevant thread.. But thats one good place to eyeball in particular. I was planning on jacking her up tomorrow and taking a good hard look at the entire fuel pump shelf there.. I dont even have $$ for a junkyard unit but if somethings wrong with the pump, I can find something from somewhere to get it to work, for now.. I might have to call in tomorrow, though.. Oh well. If my car breaks down, it will be at least a day lost there. Hopefully they see it that way, too. Oh, and i forgot to mention.. I have also replaced the TPS with a JY unit recently.. so while its not impossible for that to be the culprit, it HAS been recently checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 If you find leaks in the pump body or supply lines, use JB weld to rebuild the sections you need. If you get creative you can make something work with tongue depressors and elmers. It will work in the short term anyway. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 If you're doing that, then get some foberglass tape & wrap him once around - it'll give your JB-Weld something to hold onto, and then go over him a 2nd time as a top-coat - you can also get some liquid wirenut stuff when you're done to put a "ruberized coating" over it. That outta keep'im tight for awhile ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomRhere Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Just went thru this with the XT6, and it was that surge thing on the pump that GD mentioned. Couldn't see anything just peeking under the car, but I sure could smell the gas. Wasn't until it got to leaking worse that I could tell where it was coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted January 5, 2007 Author Share Posted January 5, 2007 Just went thru this with the XT6, and it was that surge thing on the pump that GD mentioned. Couldn't see anything just peeking under the car, but I sure could smell the gas. Wasn't until it got to leaking worse that I could tell where it was coming from. Looks like I may want to unbolt the fuel pump shelf and try to get a good view of the pump assembly with the engine running.. would this be inadvisable? I can't imagine it would hurt TOO badly... must search for this other thread, too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 gonna have to throw my vote for the surge thingy in here as well...have had several go to pot over the last few years - most recently on the 88 coupe with 3at... smell of gas was there only after shutting it off after having driven for a while (50 miles). shorter trips for some reason didnt get the smell... JB weld will help stave off the need for replacement for a little while, but you will need to make sure it is completely dry before running the pump - and make sure the pump is completely dry before putting the stuff on or it will fail pretty quick. use a round screwdriver shaft to help form it into the tight spots. another thing to take a look at is the metal line that goes from the pump to the drivers side of car and then up into the interior...on the coupe, i noticed the weight of the pump hanging was bending the line (meaning line is weak with rust) about 4-5 ft of rubber line can cure any leaks that may occur in this line - i replaced it from inside the car (under rear seat) down thru the rubber grommet and over to the pump...one long piece attached to good solid line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm Posted January 5, 2007 Share Posted January 5, 2007 Have you cleaned the MAF? It sounds like you aren't getting an accurate signal from it at cruise/low flow. At WOT it either goes open loop (MAF doesn't matter) or the high air flow gives a good signal. Cheap and worth a try. Shoot, I see now you did just clean it. Still worth a look, maybe it got gunked up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted January 6, 2007 Author Share Posted January 6, 2007 Have you cleaned the MAF? It sounds like you aren't getting an accurate signal from it at cruise/low flow. At WOT it either goes open loop (MAF doesn't matter) or the high air flow gives a good signal. Cheap and worth a try. Shoot, I see now you did just clean it. Still worth a look, maybe it got gunked up again. Yes, I have.. but I was planning on checking that as well. I had about the same thoughts. Slept late today, had no time before work to investigate anything in detail. A while back i ran D-check mode and got an O2 sensor or circuit code.. could an O2 sensor thats going bad (enough to trigger a d-check code but no CEL during driving) possibly cause this? i DID eyeball that pot today while she was running, in the daylight, and saw no leaks.. but then again, i didnt have the problem recur today while driving the 8 miles or so to work and back, either. Something tells me this running issue is gonna be a night time thing. Murphy's law and all that jazz. Also, since this problem is being intermittent, I am starting to lean away from my dying headgasket being the cause of my problems... BUT I haven't ruled it out yet. any thoughts on that? obviously a compression check would be in order.. but if its intermittent it may or may not show poor compression.. Also, i have not the gas to go to the shop where the tools are. I barely have enough (i think) to get to work and back until monday (payday) thanks for the input, all. EDIT Update early saturday morning: Drove over to a buddy's earlier, and on my way home my symptoms recurred... I fiddled with the gas pedal a bit, and judging from that I am guessing that the MAF is my most likely culprit.. because the problem went away at WOT and near to it, and also whenever i forced a much greater amount of air into the intake than it had been seeing a moment prior.. (ie, punched it when i was at low throttle.. but not necessarily all the way.) robm, thanks for reminding me that the ECU goes ignores the MAF at WOT, thats what made me start experimenting.. and sure enough, problem dissappeared every time i hit the pedal to the floor. Not closing the book on anything yet.. to many potential problem areas that HAVENT bitten me in the arse yet..and havent been fixed yet, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azsubaru Posted January 6, 2007 Share Posted January 6, 2007 O2 sensor - I had the same sputtering problem, same difficulty in finding it. Even with no code showing, I replaced the O2 sensor out of desperation and it fixed the problem. It took about 50 miles of drving after the change before the sputtering went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 O2 sensor - I had the same sputtering problem, same difficulty in finding it. Even with no code showing, I replaced the O2 sensor out of desperation and it fixed the problem. It took about 50 miles of drving after the change before the sputtering went away. I am actually thinking it may be a combination of minor problems with both the O2 and the MAF. I had a (marginally) bad TPS that I replaced a while back, and replacing it helped but not as much as I had hoped.. I theorized at the time that maybe a new O2 sensor would finish my fix. Also, it seems my mileage has gone thru the floor.. last night on my digi dash, the gas gauge went down to a single bar and the light came on... Usually at that point, I have about forty miles left before that last bar dissappears.. (and another ~40 after that before im dry) I reset the trip odo as SOON as it went down to one bar, and fourteen miles later, it was down to zero reading. I don't know if I have enough gas to make it to work an back tomorrow now!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 OHHH NOOOO my cars done the same thing its an 86 gl10. It all started coming back from the mtn. I use it to drive to and from work and to go snowboarding. It all started when I was coasting down the mtn in gear, when i would go to re apply throttle there would be nothing. No boost no rpm gain nothing but the sound of exhaust sounds really weird but the car wouldnt die. I would push in the clutch and rev it and it would rev fine.It would only do it 1 time per trip. After a few trips doing this getting the revs up was difficult. No symptoms what so ever. First i was thinking boost leak or vacume leak. (fyI I dont know anything about these cars, I bought this car drove it a year and swapped a jdm ea82t in like 6 months ago.Ran fine till now, Ive Checked everything, the coolant temp sensor is on order and about a week out. Unplugged it and its very clean. How do i test this sensor? Everything else seems at par) Today I was on the way home and It did it really bad I had to pull over off the freeway, Just as i got off the road she cought revs and back on the road, very weird. I finaly had a passanger in the back (i have a bad nose, not too much smell) and he said he smelled fuel. He thought it was coming from the exhaust but I coulnt smell it. It did it 5 times on the way home. more than ever I just really wanted to make it. In the last mile it cut out again but i coulndt get the revs back. I made it home barely on the throttle at like 1500 rpms.With the clutch in she wont die. I just cant apply throttle. It will start first try every time idle fine, no tick. well who am i kidding a little tick but nothing u can even hear with the hood closed. the only code i throw is a 12 which isnt related. I think its lack of fuel. I just pulled the plugs and they show signs of running a lil lean. I dont thing there too bad to make the car not run. All plugs are exactly the same in wear. I was also leaning to fuel just as i found this post. How do i test the fuel pump/sending unit, or what ever i need to check. How do i check the injectors? Isnt this by an ohm reading? Anything else to check. Some one said somthing about somthing i dont dont know what its called or located. Kinda hard for me to check it. lol. Is it cheaper to take out the injectors and have them cleaned or replace them? How many years use the same fuel pump? or use swapable fuel systems. I have an 87 turbo wagon parts car. Can i use any fuel related parts? Soo many parts just what i need seems to not be swapable. Im sooo confused about this. first time it did it I did cap rotor wires and plugs. second time i did fuel filter and a few vacume lines, third time i did it I bought a tech works down tube, gas milage seemed ok at like 300 a tank give or take 30 miles due to driving style, is this normal? Would a fuel pressure regulator be worth looking into. Any help plz its 1:40am sunday morning and monday is just aroung the corner and i gota go to work. ahhhh, Im in olympia washington if any one close has parts i may need and any help is soo greatly appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 OHHH NOOOO my cars done the same thing...... and any help is soo greatly appreciated I don't know how likely it is our problems are related, as I have a non-turbo car.. BUT the thing you seemed to have a hard time identifying and knowing how to check.. is a little pot thingy like a fuel damper mounted on the fuel pump shelf. The fuel pump is located on a small shelf bolted to the undercarriage, just in front of the rear passenger wheel. Any other FI soob of the same model (GL/loyale, if the car looks the same, turbo or non, spfi or mpfi, they are the same pump, or interchangeable) The problem being referred to is a simple leak, so a visual inspection while the engine is running should tell you. If you are referring to the MAF, thats the mass air flow sensor.. its part of your air intake, located just after the filter box. O2 sensors are screwed into the exhaust pipe.. and the coolant temp sensor rarely (if ever?) fails, the connections to it are somewhat failure prone. When those connections get less than ideal, they add resistance to the sensor circuit.. and since the sensor is a thermistor, which is basically a variable resistor that changes value with temperature.. changing the resistance of that circuit changes what temp the ECU thinks the engine is running at, and it can change the fuel mixture accordingly. The fix for this problem is simply to cut out the plug, and solder the wires directly to the wires coming out of the sensor. I have read many people stating that through 5, 10, 15+ cars that they have fixed the sensor wires on, they have yet to encounter an actual dead sensor. Also, try going to the USRM (top right corner of page, click on "USRM") and look for the ECU code retrieval procedure, and run a d-check diagnostic.. this is an onboard diagnostic that CAN help pinpoint sensor issues within the FI componentry.. but it can also yield no codes when you most certainly do have a problem. Take your distributor cap off and make sure that if your rotor is supposed to have a screw holding it in place, that screw is there.. search the forum for mass airflow sensor cleaning.. there was a thread with the subject "MAF sensor cleaning.. who'da thunk?" try sensor +thunk in older gen subarus, that should give you the thread. Take that and try cleaning the MAF. BTW, if that thread hasn't been put into the USRM yet I motion it gets put there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 BUT the thing you seemed to have a hard time identifying and knowing how to check.. is a little pot thingy like a fuel damper this is what I was talking about, I know about cars and what a maf is, just not these subarus. Dont know there tricks yet or their ins and outs. As for the rotor, never had a screw in it. Would it be worth putting that in there. Its a very tight fit. no movement? i was aware of the different diagnostics on these cars. Theres 2 clear plugs and 2 green plugs. i know all i could get the throw is a 12 i will check right now about other ways to troublshoot. thanks Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 some rotors have the retention screw, some do not. It is a common *DOH* failure point, yanno? Sorry If i was talking down at all, I was just trying to cover 12438487235 points as briefly as possible. I can go on some times, be long winded, wordy if you will... I write books instead of sentences, climb mountains instead of hills, keep struggling to find metaphors to make this statement drag out.... Anyhow, I hope I have given you some food for thought. Don't forget that to enter D-check mode and get a good read, you have to have the RPMs up over 2K for about 2 minutes.. with the connectors plugged in, etc. http://www.ch601.org/engines.htm That is a page that conatins a link to download two .pdf files that are a significant chunk of a FSM. VERY helpful, at times.. not as comprehensive on the turbo coverage, i understand.. but a resource nevertheless. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 How do I do the d check sounds like thats a dealer thing. I have 4 plugs all the same style just under the ecu. 2 clear and 2 green. dont know whats read memory or what. thanks maybe im overthinking this. also i dont believe my checkeng light works. can i use a test light or other light in its place? dont have time to wait for one. thanks. Jess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slideshow86 Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 ok ok finaly found what the color plugs do. After doing the d test i have a code 22 pressure or vacume switches-fixed valve, 31 speed sensor or circuit and 24 wide open throttle switches-fixed valve. ok what exactly am i looking for. where is the pressure of vacume switches located, wheres the speed sensor and is the wide open throttle switch a part of the tps?........ as i didnt make my deadline, I am now screwed. I dont want to chance driving it to work. oh no! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 ok ok finaly found what the color plugs do. After doing the d test i have a code 22 pressure or vacume switches-fixed valve, 31 speed sensor or circuit and 24 wide open throttle switches-fixed valve. ok what exactly am i looking for. where is the pressure of vacume switches located, wheres the speed sensor and is the wide open throttle switch a part of the tps?........ as i didnt make my deadline, I am now screwed. I dont want to chance driving it to work. oh no! Click on the link in my last post, scroll down a little bit and find the word EA82.. download those two .pdf files. They are significant chunks of a Factory Service Manual that answers all of your questions.. I believe on the turbo, the throttle switch you are talking about IS in the TPS.. but I am unsure. I know theres a difference between my TPS and yours, and I *think* thats it. Also, you might get more responses from other people who know alot more than me, if you started your own thread. This one has been around for a while, and I am sure there are people who are no longer viewing it every time it comes to the top. I certainly don't MIND if you want to continue trying for help in this thread.. but I think you'd have more help if you start something new. Oh, and download and read the FSM section about doing the computer checks. even if you are on dialup, it is TOTALLY worth the time to get it. Anyhow, read up on your check procedure, and read the list of codes, and THEN look at what codes you have, maybe give the relevant section of the manual a read, and make a post. The more YOU know, the more you can tell us.. and the more information we get, the more hepful we can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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