Olnick Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Trying to hang the timing belt (Subaru OEM) on my '95 Legacy 2.2. Lined up the crank and both cam sprockets properly with their apppropriate marks. Slid the belt on and its marks line up perfectly with the crank sprocket and the right (passenger side) cam sprocket. But no way in heck will it line up with the left (driver side) sprocket mark. It appears that the left sprocket mark is midway between a "tooth" and a "valley!" Seems to me it should be dead center on a "valley" to line up with the printed mark on the belt, which is centered over the 41st tooth from the crank sprocket mark. Anyway I matched marks as closely as possible, took the slack out and this (the photo) is where it ended up--about 3/16" beyond the notch on the tb cover. The tensioner is still pinned and mounted in its right-most position. So what does anyone think. Is it right or is it off by a tooth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea#3 Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Yes all is good If you have all the marks on the belt lined up with the marks on the pulley , your good to go If you check the alingment after the belt is in service for a few 1000 k it will stretch a bit and be spot on SEA#3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmdew Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Make sure you are using the tick mark on the back tooth of the crank pulley and not the arrow on the front. I's slightly off and will line up as the tensioner takes out the play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Trying to hang the timing belt (Subaru OEM) on my '95 Legacy 2.2. Lined up the crank and both cam sprockets properly with their apppropriate marks. Slid the belt on and its marks line up perfectly with the crank sprocket and the right (passenger side) cam sprocket. But no way in heck will it line up with the left (driver side) sprocket mark. It appears that the left sprocket mark is midway between a "tooth" and a "valley!" Seems to me it should be dead center on a "valley" to line up with the printed mark on the belt, which is centered over the 41st tooth from the crank sprocket mark. Anyway I matched marks as closely as possible, took the slack out and this (the photo) is where it ended up--about 3/16" beyond the notch on the tb cover. The tensioner is still pinned and mounted in its right-most position. So what does anyone think. Is it right or is it off by a tooth?[ATTACH]4549[/ATTACH] HI Olnick, If the job is not already done and if the covers are still open, here's something that will definitely help you. It's taken from Endwrench: «Here’s a great check — there should be exactly 44 teeth between the mark on the crank sprocket and the one on the passenger’s side cam pulley, and 40.5 teeth between the crank mark and the driver’s side cam mark.» Always good to double check : the marks AND the tooth count. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 If the job is not already done and if the covers are still open, here's something that will definitely help you. It's taken from Endwrench:«Here’s a great check — there should be exactly 44 teeth between the mark on the crank sprocket and the one on the passenger’s side cam pulley, and 40.5 teeth between the crank mark and the driver’s side cam mark.» [...] That's from page 15 of: http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/TBeltEWWin05.pdf If you haven't seen it already, here's a post I made with that and other t-belt links: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showpost.php?p=557934 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Don't use the marks on the timing covers, I repeat, DON'T use the marks on the timing covers. In my opinion, they're only for getting the sprockets in the right position. Line up the marks on the belt with the marks on the sprockets, and you're golden. If it is timed correctly, these marks will line up perfectly. The way it looks now, it appears you're one tooth off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 The way it looks now, it appears you're one tooth off. With all due respect, I dont think so: if one looks at the space between two teeth (looking at the left of the picture), if he was to move the belt one tooth to the right (looking at the picture) the mark on the belt would be to the right of the mark on the pulley by exactly the same amount it is now on the left. That's why there are 40.5 teeth between the crank pulley mark and the drivers side cam mark and not 41. There is exactly half a tooth of difference between the mark on the belt and the mark on the cam pulley. In my opinion, all is right. But Olnick, I would count again if I were you. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 It doesn't really matter anyways, just put the crank pulley back on and check if it fires up. If it won't go or runs like hell, it's a tooth off. Remember, it's a 95 - no interference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avk Posted January 7, 2007 Share Posted January 7, 2007 Use the marks on the sprockets as others have said. On the belt, one of the lines is also halfway between two teeth, so it will line up exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 First of all, thank you everyone for your very astute observations. I really appreciate your input. Let me try to summarize: 1) Yes, I am using the correct marks, not the arrows or triangles! I have counted teeth (several times) and the belt marks are indeed right where they belong! Before I started I read all the articles referenced and more--many times! I'm a nut about researching jobs before I start so I can avoid problems . . . like the one I'm having right now!!! 2) It's a physical impossibility for my left cam sprocket mark and the printed stripe on the belt to line up. The cam sprocket mark is halfway between a tooth and a trough! (Is mine the only Subie in the world with this problem?!!) 3) frag, you are extremely perceptive. I've tried it both ways and, as you deduced, it's gonna' be half a tooth off one way or the other! But counting teeth does no good at this point because the belt and sprocket have to fit together tooth to trough! Therefore it'll be half a tooth off--but which way "off" is the correct way? 4) subyluvr2212, I tend to agree with you. The sprocket mark appears to be one tooth (roughly 5/16") too far clockwise. But if I correct that, the belt stripe will be way off. 5) One of OB99W's articles makes an interesting point. From Dan Marinucci, MOTOR, August 2001, page 16: "Don't worry about aligning each stripe with a timing mark. As long as all three sprocket marks are straight up at the same time, it doesn't matter where those darn belt stripes end up." This would suggest that I should line up the sprocket mark with the tb cover notch and not worry about the belt mark! 6) How much do I allow for the tensioner (should pull things more into alignment) and eventual stretching (toward out of alignment)? 7) Maybe Manarius has the best idea--fire it up and see how it runs! One question though, how perceptible is the "rough running" if it's off by one tooth? Guess I might soon know!!! Thanks again everyone. Your interest and input is much, much appreciated. I'll report back if/when I solve this. Aloha, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 Use the marks on the sprockets as others have said. On the belt, one of the lines is also halfway between two teeth, so it will line up exactly. Thanks avk--correct, the right (passenger's side) belt mark is between two teeth, which allows for 44 full teeth between it and the crank mark. But the left (driver's side) belt mark is centered over the 41st tooth, which equates to 40.5 teeth from the crank. Since my left cam sprocket mark is not in a "valley" (where it logically should be) the belt will never line up as intended! Aloha, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted January 7, 2007 Author Share Posted January 7, 2007 Update: It works! After much mental anguish and teeth gnashing (mine, not the timing belt's) I put the battery and the new sparkplugs in, pulled the pin on the tensioner and cranked it over. Smooooth! The belt and cam sprocket were positioned as shown in the photo in my first post. Mahalo nui loa, gang. You da' best! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avk Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 It does seem odd that the mark on the left sprocket is not in the valley. The actual mark is just a short stamped line. Could it be that it's hidden by that yellow paint? Either way, it seems to be aligned correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 I dunno. I've corrected a 91 turbo that had it one tooth off, and it really didn't run that bad. It ran better after I fixed it, don't get me wrong, but it didn't run terrible when I fixed it. Olnick, here's how you do it. 1) Line the crank sprocket up first! You do wanna use the mark on the sprocket (the one on the back, on the sensor tooth), and line that up to the mark on the engine. Get that lined up as perfectly as possible, and don't touch it. Do this procedure right and you won't move the crank again. 2) Identify the marks on the belt. I still can't recall from memory, but I'm 99% sure the broken line on the belt is the one that corresponds to the crank. Regardless, identify all 3 marks. Of course, make sure you have the belt on the right way, you should be able to read the writing on the belt right-side-up while you're putting it on. 3) Align the marks. As you install the belt, put it on with the mark lining up on the crank first. Then slip them over the cam sprockets (you'll need to remove the bottom two idler pullies to have enough slack). Line the marks on the cams up with the marks on the belt. Once you have these 3 marks lined up, YOU ARE DONE TIMING THE ENGINE. IT IS TIMED PROPERLY. There is no need to find TDC, there is no need to compare the marks on the sprockets with the marks on the engines, there is no need to do anything else except continue reassembling everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 I dunno. I've corrected a 91 turbo that had it one tooth off, and it really didn't run that bad. It ran better after I fixed it, don't get me wrong, but it didn't run terrible when I fixed it. Olnick, here's how you do it. 1) Line the crank sprocket up first! You do wanna use the mark on the sprocket (the one on the back, on the sensor tooth), and line that up to the mark on the engine. Get that lined up as perfectly as possible, and don't touch it. Do this procedure right and you won't move the crank again. 2) Identify the marks on the belt. I still can't recall from memory, but I'm 99% sure the broken line on the belt is the one that corresponds to the crank. Regardless, identify all 3 marks. Of course, make sure you have the belt on the right way, you should be able to read the writing on the belt right-side-up while you're putting it on. 3) Align the marks. As you install the belt, put it on with the mark lining up on the crank first. Then slip them over the cam sprockets (you'll need to remove the bottom two idler pullies to have enough slack). Line the marks on the cams up with the marks on the belt. Once you have these 3 marks lined up, YOU ARE DONE TIMING THE ENGINE. IT IS TIMED PROPERLY. There is no need to find TDC, there is no need to compare the marks on the sprockets with the marks on the engines, there is no need to do anything else except continue reassembling everything else. this great information. thanks!! question: it doesn't matter what part of the cycle cylinder 1 is on? if the crank puley is on the mark, belt is on the crank mark and the cam pulleys are on the belt marks, then it's all ok? that is simple. i think i can do that. now about the DOHC's ....... thanks, john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 question: it doesn't matter what part of the cycle cylinder 1 is on? if the crank puley is on the mark, belt is on the crank mark and the cam pulleys are on the belt marks, then it's all ok? That's absolutely correct. Because EJ engines do not use a distributor, it is impossible to be 180º out. The crank and cam sensors will still read the sprockets the same way, and they will still know when to open each injector and fire each plug. If you're so inclined, take your timing belt off, turn ONLY your crank 180º (assuming you have a non-interference engine), and reinstall your timing belt correctly. Your engine will run the same way. As long as your marks are lined up properly, like I explained, you are guaranteed to have your engine timed properly. Don't ask me about DOHC engines though, I haven't done one of those Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keltik Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 That's absolutely correct. Because EJ engines do not use a distributor, it is impossible to be 180º out. Im going to be doing my timing belt soon.....my EJ18 has a distributor. But im sure its still all good, i cant think of a way to get the ignition timing out as long as the belts on and all the marks line up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Damn you people and your non-USDM cars throwing me off Actually, I was kinda expecting someone to chime in about how some EDM EJ18's had dizzys I've done two EA82 timing belts before, and all you have to do is just line everything up before you take the old belt off, then just put the new belt on, move the sprockets what little you need to get them lined up, and go from there. Then you know your timing is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 If you're so inclined, take your timing belt off, turn ONLY your crank 180º (assuming you have a non-interference engine), and reinstall your timing belt correctly. Your engine will run the same way. As long as your marks are lined up properly, like I explained, you are guaranteed to have your engine timed properly. Hi subyluvr2212, I'm missing something here : how can the 3 marks be lined up (all pointing at 12 o'clock) if the crank is rotated 180° (crank mark pointing down) ? Did you mean 360° ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgambino Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Hi subyluvr2212,I'm missing something here : how can the 3 marks be lined up (all pointing at 12 o'clock) if the crank is rotated 180° (crank mark pointing down) ? Did you mean 360° ? Frag....my thought exactly...180 degree turn on the crank is wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerFahrer Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Yeah, 360°. Sorry. Long day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avk Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Maybe the idea was that you can turn the camshafts 180 deg., which corresponds to a full revolution of the crank. That'll work, except that there's only one timing mark on each sprocket. But one can make a new one, making sure it's different from the original. Can be just a punch mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Maybe the idea was that you can turn the camshafts 180 deg., which corresponds to a full revolution of the crank. That'll work, except that there's only one timing mark on each sprocket. But one can make a new one, making sure it's different from the original. Can be just a punch mark. Maybe I'm (really) missing something here but i dont think crank mark up and both camshaft marks down would work. The timing of the cams in relation to the crank would be 180° off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Maybe I'm (really) missing something here but i dont think crank mark up and both camshaft marks down would work. The timing of the cams in relation to the crank would be 180° off. In 4-cycle engines, the crank completes two full revolutions for each single turn of the camshaft(s) (4 cycles requires 2 full up-down strokes). Therefore, one revolution of the crank corresponds with half of one for a camshaft. But you knew that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avk Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 The camshaft makes one full revolution for two revolutions of the crank, so when the crank mark is up and the cam mark is down you're simply using the exhaust stroke instead of compression stroke to set timing, or maybe power stroke instead of intake stroke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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