My ideal vehicle...

[morgantruce]

I am looking for a 4x4 vehicle that has just TWO features:

 

(1) a very low first gear--obtained either by a "low range" transmission or a "crawler" gear. This vehicle must be able to come down our VERY steep, long hill... in all kinds of weather... and do it VERY SLOWLY!

 

(2) gets "fairly good" gas mileage---because after we 4-wheel it up our long steep hill, it needs to travel 30 miles to get to work.

--------------

 

OK, OK!!! Don't everybody start jumping up and down and start suggesting an 80's vintage Subaru GL with a dual range transmission---- I've had FOUR of 'em! They are absolutely the greatest cars ever created in my opinion. I lost three of them to rust... and now the fourth one is rapidly heading for the same awful end (boo hoo!!)

 

I recently bought a 2000 Forester---nice car, but... I have to ride the brakes all the way down our long, steep hill---and I have little doubt that this will not work out well when that hill gets covered with ice and snow (wasn't a problem for my old GLs...)

 

So I ask... what vehicles are out there that have available LOW gearing and get decent mileage? I am even considering (shudder) something that doesn't say "Subaru" on it. I used to have a Nissan pickup with low range that did the trick pretty good... At this point I could go for ANY kind of vehicle---car, wagon, pickup, etc.

 

I would give my left ball if Subaru re-introduced the old GL---but this time made it completely out of stainless steel... dream on!

[bgd73]

If rust wasn't intimidating, a welder/rivets/ metal makes the old soob stronger than ever. I target them before anything starts happenning.. even now when some of them are 20 (my current one). As far as another brand, I have searched too. there is the small foriegn trucks, four cylinder, but handling truly stinks on real roads, real speed limits and when they are really non-toy over jacked up top heavy ridiculous the engineering is going to be a winner someday... until there is the benefit of a wagon and more seats needed. Somebody lost reality a long time ago in a real 4x4, the old ones are now a "legend" (isn't that a shameful thought about common sense).There was the fore runner toyota type trucks, and they too proved to be a bit dangerous in real scenarios. On apersonal note- the ej scares me. (Not the power, the dainty engineering doing big things).

I have been in all of them. The economy of the old soobs is another winner. I did drive a chevy tracker a few times at 2 liters and 15 inch wheels, seemed decent until I encountered the constant braking, no sense of gearing and the height, yet again, making it a toy looking jackass- ready to flip over on a slide on a leaning road. Ridiculous!

 

The thought of "rally mode" and 4x4 and truly a strong hard thumping full cammed n/a small 3 main bearing 4 cylinder boxer engine Simplified with 2 valves per cylinder and singular carb/injection ,would be quite nice, anytime now- on a REAL crankshaft and block. I have kicked the ej's railroad right out of my mentality. I cringe at the thought of -30F and a crankshaft as skinny as a body panel throwing rods over twice its thickness into action. Repulsive.The mystery hard engine noises that have climbed out of the ej soobs has made my decision.

The old soob is still a winner. Always will be. FOREVER.

Ever saw the discovery "90"? I thought "wow I want one". Went to ebay and found out that common sense buggy can sell for 35k used with dents. the world is quite a thief sometimes. What they did for the little 4wds mentality is clearly a victim of it.

[mtsmiths]

I am looking for a 4x4 vehicle that has just TWO features:

 

(1) a very low first gear--obtained either by a "low range" transmission or a "crawler" gear. This vehicle must be able to come down our VERY steep, long hill... in all kinds of weather... and do it VERY SLOWLY!

 

(2) gets "fairly good" gas mileage---because after we 4-wheel it up our long steep hill, it needs to travel 30 miles to get to work.

--------------

 

OK, OK!!! Don't everybody start jumping up and down and start suggesting an 80's vintage Subaru GL with a dual range transmission---- I've had FOUR of 'em! They are absolutely the greatest cars ever created in my opinion. I lost three of them to rust... and now the fourth one is rapidly heading for the same awful end (boo hoo!!)

 

I recently bought a 2000 Forester---nice car, but... I have to ride the brakes all the way down our long, steep hill---and I have little doubt that this will not work out well when that hill gets covered with ice and snow (wasn't a problem for my old GLs...)

 

So I ask... what vehicles are out there that have available LOW gearing and get decent mileage? I am even considering (shudder) something that doesn't say "Subaru" on it. I used to have a Nissan pickup with low range that did the trick pretty good... At this point I could go for ANY kind of vehicle---car, wagon, pickup, etc.

 

I would give my left ball if Subaru re-introduced the old GL---but this time made it completely out of stainless steel... dream on!

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I have exactly the same situation, although the numbers may be smaller. We have a very steep, paved driveway, that ices over and turns into a 120 foot long butt luge. We had a warm, rainy spell lately and the it froze into a solid sheet of clear ice. 50 lbs of salt din't make a dent in it. Then I have a fourteen mile commute)

 

Our Legacy makes it just fine, but we do have to ride tha brake gently to get down. I can imagina that if it were l-o-n-g we would have problems, and inevitably land in the borrow ditch some cold day.

 

OK, I hate to say this in this venue (let the flame wars begin), but car #2, the 'Barbie Jeep' aka Geo Tracker/Suzuki Sidekick works perfectly in the situation, and it doesn't even have studs. It does have a dual-range tranny with a granny gear, and gets 26-28 mpg on the highway, 20-22 in 4-WD.

 

Mine's an A/T with auto hubs, but they come in all kinds of configurations and combinations ... soft tops (I've converted mine to the worlds shortest pickup), hardtop 2-doors or 4-doors, A/T, 5-spd, auto or manual hubs. And they're cheap (I paid $2,600.00 for a 100K mi unit, with everything on the front of the block fresh, and in excellent overall condition, offa PDX Craigslist) if you stick to the first body style models.

 

"I would give my left ball if Subaru re-introduced the old GL---but this time made it completely out of stainless steel... dream on!["

 

I would join you if they would make a removable top fiberglas or carbon fiber bodied 'jeep' vehicle, based on the GL drivetrain with a 2.2 ... guess I'll just have to build it myself after I retire, and keep the cojone sinestro.

[s'ko]

If you are mechanically inclined you can stuff the GL tranny into your Forester. The reverse is being done when people put the newer motors into the older bodies.

 

The hardest part would be figuring out the driveshaft fitment. The rear differential would also have to match the tranny's drive ratio.

 

Ask around in the retro forum.

 

BW

[mikeshoup]

+1 on throwing the D/R trans into your forester. Its been done before.

 

Would need an adapter plate, change the length of the driveshaft, and do custom axles, then figure out the interior bits. Overall, wouldn't be too terribly difficult I think.

[morgantruce]

I have only fair mechanical skills. I've done my share of front axel replacements... and even a rear end-ectomy, but I draw the line at the kind of modifictions the last two posts hint at.

 

----

 

I remember back in the very early '90s stopping in at a Subaru dealer and test driving one of the (then) brand new Loyales which were supposed to replace the GL models. I took the car to the top of a small hill, put it in 1st gear, and let it go down without touching the brakes. I recall thinking to myself, "This damn thing feels like a soap box derby car---very little engine braking!" Subaru was on its way from a car that was useful to people who lived among mountains and off road situations---to a car that's OK for slippery pavement.

 

For a long while, we got by by using TWO cars---one car just for our hill, and then switching to a front-wheel drive P.O.S. GM car for getting the rest of the way to work. It sure was a lot of fun switching from one car to another during snow storms...

And then there was the problem of trying to do even routine maintenance on a car that can not be driven to your house.

 

I have looked (half-heartedly) at Suzuki/Trackers but could not ever get past reminding myself of the twin-cylinder Suzuki motorcycle I had back in the early '70s... the bike that I (and several good motorcycle mechanics) could never get to run on both cylinders. It would be my karma to get the only Suzuki/Tracker in the world that always ran on half of its alloted cylinders!

[mtsmiths]

I have looked (half-heartedly) at Suzuki/Trackers but could not ever get past reminding myself of the twin-cylinder Suzuki motorcycle I had back in the early '70s... the bike that I (and several good motorcycle mechanics) could never get to run on both cylinders. It would be my karma to get the only Suzuki/Tracker in the world that always ran on half of its alloted cylinders!

 

Well, I have been surprised at how reliable Barbie has been, never even hinted at abandoning any of it's cylinders, altho' it is a buzzy little beastie. Sometimes I think the engine was built by Singer, nor Suzi.

 

I also looked at Trackkicks when we first moved to Montana, and rejected because they seemed like toy Jeeps. Then we wore out our GLs. The '00 Legacy has served us VERY well, but two 4th gen Subarus didn't cut it; I need 'something' to haul dirty loads, get to trailheads on really nasty USFS roads, and still work for commuting when The Pretty One and I can't car-pool.

 

It's been a good 2nd car, and tolerable for short hauls (30 miles is OK ... highway trips are hell). But I sure wouldn't want one as our ONLY car. It is fun in the summer, I got a bikini top and back window, and had a tonneau made for the back (first thing I did was rip out the back seats and safety stuff). I also had a curtain made to block off the 'bed' so the miserable heater could cope, by reducing the cab volume, AND a grill blocker to keep the -10 f air outta the engine compartment.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

About Rust: I saw in Peru (Lima City) an Undercoating made of Asphalt, that prevents Rust in the Underbody, I think that maybe you can first: Fix the Rusted Parts, and Second: put a Protective Coating all under / Over (If it´s Possible) ... to Save your Subie.

[GeneralDisorder]

Just fly out here, pick up a nice rust free GL, and drive it home. We have thousands of the silly things, and they are soooo cheap. My 86 doesn't have a spot of rust.

 

If you haven't been out here to see the cars, you probably don't quite understand.... we have NO rust.

 

GD

[Phizinza]

(1) a very low first gear--obtained either by a "low range" transmission or a "crawler" gear. This vehicle must be able to come down our VERY steep, long hill... in all kinds of weather... and do it VERY SLOWLY!

Sorry mate, but your looking at the wrong brand. (just my opinion, I have driven a couple of different 4WD's)

 

I'm not sure if you get the Daihatsu 4WD range over there, but, I drove a stock Feroza SX and it was pretty good. Runs on 28" tires as stock and has a 1.73:1 low ratio, and as standard something like 5.12:1 diffs.

But even better (well I think so) is my brothers Toyota Hilux/Tacoma. It has a 2.5:1 low ratio, and I think 4.7:1 diffs? His is a 01 model with the 3L TDi we got here in Australia. But the older ones are pretty much the same. And since your stuck with petrol over there basiclly you just have to pick old, solid axle front, or new, IFS. I know the Toy won't get as good mileage, but it isn't to bad.

I also like the Suzuki's, but I have never driven one so I can't comment.

Of cause, if you think the low range in the Subie is good enough, just get another 85+ with the 1.59:1 low and 3.9 diffs. And then put SPFI on it for better mileage.

[morgantruce]

Just fly out here, pick up a nice rust free GL, and drive it home. We have thousands of the silly things, and they are soooo cheap. My 86 doesn't have a spot of rust.

 

If you haven't been out here to see the cars, you probably don't quite understand.... we have NO rust.

 

GD

 

Really? It must be that bone-dry, arid weather the Pacific Northwest is so noted for...

 

I was out your way (Eugene, actually) once about 20 years ago. I seem to remember seeing quite a few cars that had green moss growing on them. Maybe that's why you can's see the rust... that moss just covers over all the holes.

[GeneralDisorder]

Really? It must be that bone-dry, arid weather the Pacific Northwest is so noted for...

 

I was out your way (Eugene, actually) once about 20 years ago. I seem to remember seeing quite a few cars that had green moss growing on them. Maybe that's why you can's see the rust... that moss just covers over all the holes.

 

Yikes! No moss here. Not unless you park the car under some trees for a couple years. My 86 came that way - moss and pine needles. Two runs through the car wash and she's fine. Could probably shine up the paint if I really, really gave a crap. But it's $100 car with 230,000 on it. Of the 20 soobs I've owned, that's the only one that came complete with fauna

 

Dated a girl down in Eugene for a while. About 2 hours south of me. Eugene is getting into the more rural side of Oregon, so you are likely to see less well-kept vehicles.

 

But as to the wet environment - it's not a problem as the wetness isn't salty. We don't use salt on our roads - they use a chemical de-icing agent instead. At any rate there's no rust anywhere. Check out craigslist for portland and see what you can find. Cost to ship a car is around $750, which really isn't that expensive considering the value of a rust free GL out there versus here (virtually worthless). I see them all the time with stupid problems like timing belts, or bad clutches. Use your current rusty unit as a parts car.

 

If you locate one around here, I'll check it out for ya if you like.

 

GD

[morgantruce]

Phizinza--

 

It's quite unfair that you dangle all those great Aussy 4X4s in front of us Yanks. I'm still suffering great jealousy over the fact that you down under guys can still get your hands on brand new Honda Trail 90s (I think you call them Posties...) Talk about LOW RANGE--- I used to haul 100-pound sacks of feed down our hill on the back of the one I had. For a little bike that could do only 40 mph on a straight road, I managed to put 20,000 miles on the odometer before retiring mine.

[Gloyale]

Really? It must be that bone-dry, arid weather the Pacific Northwest is so noted for...

 

I was out your way (Eugene, actually) once about 20 years ago. I seem to remember seeing quite a few cars that had green moss growing on them. Maybe that's why you can's see the rust... that moss just covers over all the holes.

 

Really it's true! No rust! I just picked up an '89 in Oregon to bring back here to the rust belt. They salt the crap of the roads here in Wisconsin so mine is the only old Soob in town without giant rust holes in the rockers and fenders.

 

They don't salt roads in Oregon or California or Washington I believe. The west coast cars are in good shape bodywise. Unless you get the rare car left to sit under a tree for years. And even then the rust will be far less than you'd find in any state that salts roads.

[lyonlyon]

I am looking for a 4x4 vehicle that has just TWO features:

 

(1) a very low first gear--obtained either by a "low range" transmission or a "crawler" gear. This vehicle must be able to come down our VERY steep, long hill... in all kinds of weather... and do it VERY SLOWLY!

 

(2) gets "fairly good" gas mileage---because after we 4-wheel it up our long steep hill, it needs to travel 30 miles to get to work.

--------------

 

OK, OK!!! Don't everybody start jumping up and down and start suggesting an 80's vintage Subaru GL with a dual range transmission---- I've had FOUR of 'em! They are absolutely the greatest cars ever created in my opinion. I lost three of them to rust... and now the fourth one is rapidly heading for the same awful end (boo hoo!!)

 

I recently bought a 2000 Forester---nice car, but... I have to ride the brakes all the way down our long, steep hill---and I have little doubt that this will not work out well when that hill gets covered with ice and snow (wasn't a problem for my old GLs...)

 

So I ask... what vehicles are out there that have available LOW gearing and get decent mileage? I am even considering (shudder) something that doesn't say "Subaru" on it. I used to have a Nissan pickup with low range that did the trick pretty good... At this point I could go for ANY kind of vehicle---car, wagon, pickup, etc.

 

I would give my left ball if Subaru re-introduced the old GL---but this time made it completely out of stainless steel... dream on!

 

I'm in the same boat, to some degree and would buy a brand new 1987 GL4WD if they were still made.....mine has 231,000 miles and has the usual nigley problems but starts stops and gets pretty go mileage 25-30. BUT the little problems some days really piss me off. So I've been lookin around and only thing I could find was a Suzuki Sidekick, not the V6 version.

 

Good luck let us know what you find. Jeff

 

PS driving mine 1400 miles in next few days to Baja Mexico for a couple weeks vacation!

[daeron]

Yikes! No moss here. Not unless you park the car under some trees for a couple years. My 86 came that way - moss and pine needles. Two runs through the car wash and she's fine. Could probably shine up the paint if I really, really gave a crap. But it's $100 car with 230,000 on it. Of the 20 soobs I've owned, that's the only one that came complete with fauna

 

Dated a girl down in Eugene for a while. About 2 hours south of me. Eugene is getting into the more rural side of Oregon, so you are likely to see less well-kept vehicles.

 

But as to the wet environment - it's not a problem as the wetness isn't salty. We don't use salt on our roads - they use a chemical de-icing agent instead. At any rate there's no rust anywhere. Check out craigslist for portland and see what you can find. Cost to ship a car is around $750, which really isn't that expensive considering the value of a rust free GL out there versus here (virtually worthless). I see them all the time with stupid problems like timing belts, or bad clutches. Use your current rusty unit as a parts car.

 

If you locate one around here, I'll check it out for ya if you like.

 

GD

 

 

GD: have you ever considered sourcing those cars out???

 

I mean, start up a service whereby you locate good chassis, get the underbody coated, and resell them to people wherever they live?? I mean, you could get it to a point where you simply revive the vehicle or not, depending on what people would want.. half what you buy, people will be towing home to a donor car for engine/drivetrain/whatever.. and the other half need to at least make the drive cross country with SOME degree of reliability.. (recommend brniging a toolkit, spare parts, etc..)

 

It just seems that you could probably find a couple hundred bucks in there for yourself on each car, and basically turn your tinkering and such into an income-generator.. even if not THAT profitable, it is a hobby thats making a dime rather than costing it..

 

A bare minimum investment involving cross linking your area craigslist ads to classifieds here on the USMB could land you a few hits that would be relatively easy to "broker," and I think you would be a good one to be giving "expert" advice on the condition of one of these cars. Who knows where it could go from there?

[GeneralDisorder]

I would do it if I had the capital. But the problems are numerous....

 

#1 Most people looking for these know exactly what they want, and are willing to pay to get it, BUT there's very few of these people on the whole.

 

#2 Of the people that know they want them, few realize they can be had out here in the condition I'm trying to describe. Most people on the east coast grew up with rust, and find it hard to beleive we don't have that problem.... sort of a case of denial I suppose. Until they actually see one up close, and then they do this:

 

#3 To have one shipped, or drive one out there, you are probably looking at close to $1,500 to $2,000. More to drive than to ship frankly - plane tickets, food, lodging, time off work, etc, etc. Shipping isn't so bad really - lots of companies will handle the details and you get to avoid the break-down potential, which can never be entirely eliminated. If you are handy with tools, and have AAA it shouldn't stop you, but I don't like being the guy that sells said car..... and eventually it will happen..... I can't forsee all eventualities.

 

But I'm willing to look over cars for people, meet the seller, etc.

 

GD

[Seahag1978]

Really it's true! No rust!

 

They don't salt roads in Oregon or California or Washington I believe. The west coast cars are in good shape bodywise. Unless you get the rare car left to sit under a tree for years. And even then the rust will be far less than you'd find in any state that salts roads.

 

What do they use on the roads to melt snow that doesn't rust the cars? We got a "dusting" back in December and afterward the salt was thicker than the snow it was intended to melt, WTF?!

I can bring it to ol' Duval's attention that old cars are getting eaten alive and maybe we can find it in the budget... less in the junkyards and hang onto the more affordable older cars?

[SakoTGrimes]

Buy a dual range EJ transmission from someone in Australia, then install two transfer cases from trucks - triple low range! No, I'm serious.

[GeneralDisorder]

What do they use on the roads to melt snow that doesn't rust the cars?

 

We use sand and gravel mostly, but they also use a product called Freezeguard. It's mostly Magnesium Chloride - it will stay on the road and keep it from freezing for up to 3 or 4 days they say. It's also quicker to apply, and cheaper than sanding. Better for the environment than sand too apparently.

 

Salt is really naughty stuff - kills everything including cars. I suppose it's all the salt mining done in the east and midwest that makes it cheaper to use. Out here it's very expensive as it has to be brought in by rail or truck. Our DOT maintains sand and gravel mineing operations to supply our trucks, and we use the chemicals often too as we get bouts of freezing rain that make things really gnarly to drive on. A couple years back they actually had to close the intersate - 1/4" sheet of solid ice.

 

GD

[Phizinza]

Phizinza--

 

It's quite unfair that you dangle all those great Aussy 4X4s in front of us Yanks. I'm still suffering great jealousy over the fact that you down under guys can still get your hands on brand new Honda Trail 90s (I think you call them Posties...) Talk about LOW RANGE---

Sorry....

 

The Tacoma is still a great 4WD, even without the diesel.. I reckon a Daihatsu Rocky would be one of the best 4WD's with little modification. And from what I gather they are available in the US. Although I don't know if they would be diesel or not.

[Uberoo]

why not a nissan patrol?

[zyewdall]

Sorry....

 

The Tacoma is still a great 4WD, even without the diesel.. I reckon a Daihatsu Rocky would be one of the best 4WD's with little modification. And from what I gather they are available in the US. Although I don't know if they would be diesel or not.

Nope, nothing less than a 5.9 liter diesel here. It sucks. Except the Jeep Liberty CRD, but it is only available with a very slushy automatic tranny. I've never tried the engine braking of it, but it does have a transfer case and low range 4x4 at least. I haven't seen any new Daihatsu's here -- only from the 90's.

 

I'd second (or fourth or fifth) the suggestion to buy another GL wagon from the northwest or california. Especially one from west of the cascades. It truly is amazing how well they keep compared to Colorado even. And even being used to the amount of rust on Colorado cars, I'm still apalled by anything from the east coast. I mean, I hear of late 80's cars being junked because of rust, which baffles me. And I recently bought a 6 year old box truck from PA, which had already rusted through the diamond plate steel bumper in a few little spots. WTF??? Newmexico or arizona are even better places to look -- I've seen 70's and 60's trucks with no rust at all there. But alot of these are a bit sun-battered -- cooked dashboards, faded paint, etc.

[Phizinza]

only from the 90's.

That's the models I'm talking about (I don't think I could bring myself to buy a new car.)

 

 

why not a nissan patrol?

... nissans suck ... :-p ahah

[WoodsWagon]

#2 Of the people that know they want them, few realize they can be had out here in the condition I'm trying to describe. Most people on the east coast grew up with rust, and find it hard to beleive we don't have that problem.... sort of a case of denial I suppose. Until they actually see one up close, and then they do this:

 

The opposite is true for people out by you, they're spoiled by the rust free-ness, and when they see a rust belt car, they do this:

Most don't seem to get the difference between surface rust, and real rust.