Phizinza Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 A mate of mine has an auto Subaru Liberty(Legacy) sedan and he says it's binding up. He thought it was the rear diff binding up and turning into more of a soild diff. But my brother took the car for a drive and reckons it's the center coupling. Can anyone give some suggestions on what to check first to find out whats the problem? I've got him to try the FWD fuse in to see if it still has the problem in FWD. That might tell us if it's a center or rear diff. Also, could someone explain what the center "diff" is in the autos? Is it just a clutch pack that engages the rear wheels, or is it two clutch packs that spread between the front and rear, or does it actually have a diff in there which is some sort of clutch pack LSD? Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 Search "Torque Bind." That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted January 14, 2007 Author Share Posted January 14, 2007 Search "Torque Bind." That is all. Ok, didn't think of that one. I searched plenty of other things such as 4EAT bind, auto bind, etc etc... But not torque bind. I found this thread here: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55651&highlight=torque+bind Which was useful to explain how the center clutch works and what it looks like. Also it seemed to say to me that you need to pull the trans apart to find the problem. So there is no diagnosing we can do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted January 14, 2007 Author Share Posted January 14, 2007 I just got told that it is always driving the rear wheels as well as the front wheels with the FWD fuse in or not. Sounds maybe like the clutch is gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 I just got told that it is always driving the rear wheels as well as the front wheels with the FWD fuse in or not. Sounds maybe like the clutch is gone? what year is it? it there an AT OIL TEMP light flashing 16 time just after start up ? it's possible that a trans fluid change will help, but that's mostly mid 90's cars and only if the fluid is dirty. clutch gets gummed up. if the AT OIL TEMP light is flashing = bad duty c solenoid. still binding with FWD fuse in and no red FWD dash light = bad duty c (maybe more) no binding with the FWD fuse in = bad clutch pack. (maybe gummed up) driving the car while binding will evenyuallly ruin the clutch pack, if not already damaged. both repairs require removing the rear extention housing from the trans. usually the duty c goes first, my cost here is 94$ plus the labor 285$. but whose going to spend 300$ to pull the housing and not replace most if not all the parts in there. complete rebuild, dealer cost, parts & labor 850$. what year and miles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 what year is it? it there an AT OIL TEMP light flashing 16 time just after start up ? it's possible that a trans fluid change will help, but that's mostly mid 90's cars and only if the fluid is dirty. clutch gets gummed up. if the AT OIL TEMP light is flashing = bad duty c solenoid. still binding with FWD fuse in and no red FWD dash light = bad duty c (maybe more) no binding with the FWD fuse in = bad clutch pack. (maybe gummed up) driving the car while binding will evenyuallly ruin the clutch pack, if not already damaged. both repairs require removing the rear extention housing from the trans. usually the duty c goes first, my cost here is 94$ plus the labor 285$. but whose going to spend 300$ to pull the housing and not replace most if not all the parts in there. complete rebuild, dealer cost, parts & labor 850$. what year and miles? is liberty model 89-94 in australia? i think it is, if so the power light should flash upon start up indicating there is a trouble code, which can be easily checked. Usually when this happens it seems like a good idea to check that the wireing harness is plugged in correctly, also some like to do a tranny flush, but that can be determined if you have not to much mileage. Good luck. If it is duty solenoid C its a good idea while your in there to do the clutch packs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted January 15, 2007 Author Share Posted January 15, 2007 It's a 91.. Liberty's are exactly the same as Legacy's (so they are 89-07, atm) Just a different name. It doesn't have that light that flashes 16 times. With the FWD fuse in it does have the FWD dash light. He got a place to check the ECU (or maybe the autos comp?) codes and it came up with a bad duty C solenoid. He is looking into getting another, so if it might not be that, nows the time to tell me how to find out what it really is. Cheers guys for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 i think the warning light for 90 - 94 is a POWER light on the dash, not sure, i have a 95. if the code says bad duty c, then that's what it is and the symptoms match. the only unknown, is the clutch pack itself. my plan is to buy a good used trans and install a new duty c before i swap it in. it's only 100$ more and i don't want to do it twice. It's a 91.. Liberty's are exactly the same as Legacy's (so they are 89-07, atm) Just a different name. It doesn't have that light that flashes 16 times. With the FWD fuse in it does have the FWD dash light. He got a place to check the ECU (or maybe the autos comp?) codes and it came up with a bad duty C solenoid. He is looking into getting another, so if it might not be that, nows the time to tell me how to find out what it really is. Cheers guys for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveeen Posted January 15, 2007 Share Posted January 15, 2007 I have one here that is, well not quite acting the same, is throwing a "Duty C" solenoid fault, once in a while, and of course the "torque bind", again, once in a while. I would check my wiring, especially the connector(s) between the transmission and the main harness, I would verify my transmission is grounded, adding a ground strap if I doubted it was grounded. Pin #3 of the TCM wiring should show 9-15 ohms to ground. The "early" cars do not have an auto transmission filter, you should look and verify if there is one, or one has been retro fitted (the retro one is found below the battery, Subaru part# 31099AA091 for the kit) Clean transmission oil is essential for the system to work, regular transmission oil changes are not really optional, there is a spool valve in there that has to work properly, and it can't with dirty oil. Sadly, as far as I can figure that is it for the "easy" stuff, the next steps to cure this get expensive (pull the tail section and start looking). Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 ididn't quite know where to put this, and i didn't think it worth a new therad, but i came across this on ebay. does any one believe this is true?? Vehicle Description This car spent alot of time being towed behind a Motor Home/RV. All Wheel Drive system can be disengaged to Front Wheel Drive with an aftermarket fuse (for towing purposes).............. Acutal driven mileage is much lower. ..... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-Subaru-Outback-Limited-READ-ME_W0QQitemZ120075483181QQihZ002QQcategoryZ31870QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted January 16, 2007 Author Share Posted January 16, 2007 When he jacks up one rear wheel he can turn it by it's self with the car off. So I assume this is just the solenoid locking the clutch up when the car is going. Anyway, thanks for your help. We'll see what we can do with the new solenoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 ididn't quite know where to put this, and i didn't think it worth a new therad, but i came across this on ebay. does any one believe this is true?? Vehicle Description This car spent alot of time being towed behind a Motor Home/RV. All Wheel Drive system can be disengaged to Front Wheel Drive with an aftermarket fuse (for towing purposes).............. Acutal driven mileage is much lower. ..... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1997-Subaru-Outback-Limited-READ-ME_W0QQitemZ120075483181QQihZ002QQcategoryZ31870QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem There are aftermarket systems that do this. There is a dog clutch on the driveshaft at the rear axle, and one on one of the front driv shafts. Its about 1000.00 per item. http://www.remcotowing.com/axle_dtl.asp nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 So... It's been awhile. He replaced the solenoid a short time after this thread was started and it was all ok. But now he says it's binding up again, only he says it's doing it randomly. Any ideas? My first guess was one of the 20 odd wires that go to the trans is shorting out/being crushed. He said he looked and fiddled with it for hours and nothing helped.. His taking it to a local Subaru specialist who appears to know their stuff about Autos. So I hope he gets it sorted. But, what do you think? Could the new solenoid really be going bad already? And if so, what would cause that? It was a brand new Subaru part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_postie Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 burrs on the clutch hub,if you dump it a lot the the clutches groove the hub and it looks like they can't operate properly ,bad design for hoons good for grandma,VTD rear transfer much better design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 I didn't see the clutch pack my self, but both my brother and the guy who owns the car say that looked pretty much new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 I didn't see the clutch pack my self, but both my brother and the guy who owns the car say that looked pretty much new. there was a post recently that suggested a bad TCU MIGHT, repeat MIGHT be the cause of binding in similar situations, but there is no confirmation of this suggestion. i also have an intermitten duty c problem. it seems to work ok at start up, but fails after some time or after the car / trans / TCU warms up. my son drives the car most so my experience is limited. i have a TCU to swap in but i haven't gotten there yet. maybe this weekend. in case you don't know, the AT OIL TEMP light will flash 16 times at start up (95 and later, OBDII). this means that the duty c failed during the last operation of the car. if you turn the key off and then back on, maybe a couple of times, this will clear the error code, if the duty c is working correctly. this may help you to see when it's failing and when it's working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 in case you don't know, the AT OIL TEMP light will flash 16 times at start up (95 and later, OBDII). this means that the duty c failed during the last operation of the car. if you turn the key off and then back on, maybe a couple of times, this will clear the error code, if the duty c is working correctly. this may help you to see when it's failing and when it's working. Sorry but your in error. The 16 flashes mean that there was an electro/electromechanical fault the last time the car was operated. It is telling you that you need to pull the code and find out. There are other solenoids and sesnsors in the transmission besides the Duty C that can fail. If you Start the car and dont move it it will clear the code. If the light keeps coming back it means that the fault existed the last time the car was driven. The TCU is self clearing, and the Transmission failures 99 % of the time are hard failures. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 When he jacks up one rear wheel he can turn it by it's self with the car off. So I assume this is just the solenoid locking the clutch up when the car is going. Anyway, thanks for your help. We'll see what we can do with the new solenoid. ????? This is what an open differential does. The clutch pack has nothing to do with turning a wheel with one wheel off the ground. If he had a LSD then he wounldnt be able to do it. With the car off the rear drivetrain freewheels, since the front pump is not producing any pressure to engage the clutchpack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 16, 2007 Share Posted March 16, 2007 A mate of mine has an auto Subaru Liberty(Legacy) sedan and he says it's binding up. He thought it was the rear diff binding up and turning into more of a soild diff. But my brother took the car for a drive and reckons it's the center coupling. Can anyone give some suggestions on what to check first to find out whats the problem? I've got him to try the FWD fuse in to see if it still has the problem in FWD. That might tell us if it's a center or rear diff. Also, could someone explain what the center "diff" is in the autos? Is it just a clutch pack that engages the rear wheels, or is it two clutch packs that spread between the front and rear, or does it actually have a diff in there which is some sort of clutch pack LSD? Cheers, Did this ever get a transmission fluid flush? Did he make sure all his tires match and are properly inflated? This car does not have a center diff if its an automatic. The car has an clucth pack that is controled by the TCU and line pressure from the front pump. There are extensive posts on this that go into some detail how the tranny operates. In all honesty, anyone who attempts to repair anything should have a basic understanding how it operate before he dives into it. Sorry if i am repeating anyone, but i had a puter meltdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 16, 2007 Author Share Posted March 16, 2007 Thanks Nipper, but I learnt all that after I posted this ages ago (you'll notice it's an old thread.) When I was talking about spinning the rear wheel I was saying the clutch pack must of been disconnecting because when you turn 1 wheel while the other is on the groung it must turn the propshaft and one side of the clutch. This determined that it wasn't a fused clutch pack. I haven't even had a ride in this car so my info is limited. I'll ask him about the flush and the light on the dash. Hes taken it to three places and no one can read the codes for him, one of which was a Subaru dealer.. haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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