Problem starting '95 Legacy, could this be the solenoid?

[reeze]

This started happening when the weather got colder (I park the car outside). Turn the key, "click", nothing else. Do it a few times and eventually it starts. I replaced the battery but the problem continues. Now sometimes I don't even hear a click. HOWEVER...when it does "catch", the starter cranks just fine and the car starts right up. Once the car is warm, I can drive it around during the day and I have no problem starting it. After a while parked in the cold though, the issue returns.

 

I see a thick wire going from the battery to a part on the engine-- it looks too small to be a starter motor! I suppose this is the solenoid & starter though. Could this be a case of bad grounds? I was going to disconnect & clean the connection to the solenoid/starter but I think I need a socket set with a universal joint to get at the nut.

 

Any hints are appreciated. This is my 3rd Legacy (I had a '91, then a '92), and I've never had this problem before. The car is an automatic (I understand there's a relay on the tranny that connects to the starter, I can't find it though). Thanks!!

[Manarius]

If you clean up the connections and it still clicks, odds are it's the starter contacts. Replacing them will require removal of the starter, but it is a $8 repair.

[RallyKeith]

If you clean up the connections and it still clicks, odds are it's the starter contacts. Replacing them will require removal of the starter, but it is a $8 repair.

 

I second that. Also, is this an automatic? I had an automatic loyale that did this but it was because the contacts were dirty on the shift position sensor and it thought it was in reverse instead of park.

 

Keith

[OB99W]

You might find some of the info in this thread interesting, although certain details refer to a manual-trans model:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=70369

[Manarius]

I second that. Also, is this an automatic? I had an automatic loyale that did this but it was because the contacts were dirty on the shift position sensor and it thought it was in reverse instead of park.

 

Keith

That is another possibility. I always forget that one. Usually though the shift indicator on the dashboard would make that obvious. I know on my car, I can put it in park, but pull the shifter back to fool the car into thinking it's not in park.

[RallyKeith]

That is another possibility. I always forget that one. Usually though the shift indicator on the dashboard would make that obvious.

 

Hmm. Good point, but depending on the year and model I don't think they all have the indicator on the dash. I think it's my Sister in Law's 95 Impreza wagon that doesn't have the indicator on the dash.

 

Keith

[WoodsWagon]

The contacts that porqupine and JDX have pictures of in the other thread are most probably the problem. I just worked on those on my dad's 95 brighton. I took the contacts out of a spare starter I had which had less wear and put them into my dad's starter, where the contacs were worn down to almost paper thin. It wouldn't start randomly, and a few tries of the key would eventually crank it.

[reeze]

How hard is it to remove the starter? I'm still not sure that the small hump on the transmission I'm seeing (where the wire from the battery is going to) is the starter motor itself, it seems too small.

 

The contacts that porqupine and JDX have pictures of in the other thread are most probably the problem. I just worked on those on my dad's 95 brighton. I took the contacts out of a spare starter I had which had less wear and put them into my dad's starter, where the contacs were worn down to almost paper thin. It wouldn't start randomly, and a few tries of the key would eventually crank it.

[reeze]

BTW a previous message I thought I posted isn't here, so I'll repeat it: thanks everyone for your suggestions on what to look at! I'm hoping it's just a bad connection somewhere. I'll be outside tomorrow morning with my voltmeter!

[OB99W]

BTW a previous message I thought I posted isn't here, so I'll repeat it: thanks everyone for your suggestions on what to look at![...]

You're welcome. You posted that "previous message" in the thread I had linked to above. Speaking of that thread -- since your car has an auto trans, rather than having a starter interlock relay, it has an inhibitor switch controlled by the shift lever position (that's what RallyKeith was referring to). However, checking for 12V on the red/yellow wire at the solenoid when the ignition switch is in START position is valid with the auto trans as well.

 

Here's an article that you might find useful:

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/StarterServiceWin03.pdf

[OB99W]

BTW, in that other thread you said:

[...]

Now I remember a few instances where the cranking was labored. It seems like dirty connections somewhere (at least I'm hoping that's what it is!).

My response to that in the other thread was:

"In the case of labored cranking and/or clicking from the solenoid, the problem could easily be a weak battery or poor battery cable connections."

 

Based on your additional info, I'd start with checking the battery connections first and then move on to other things we've suggested.

[WoodsWagon]

To test the starter: Pull off the small wire with the black connector on the end from the solenoid. It may be hidden under the heater hoses. Jump a piece of wire from that contact on the starter to the positive cable. It should crank the engine. If not:

To pull the starter:

One 14 MM bolt and one 17mm nut hold the starter to the bellhousing.

It's either a 14mm or a 12mm nut that holds the positive cable to the starter. The small wire that runs the solenoid pulls off.

 

There is 3 8?mm screws that hold the solenoid cover on. Take off the nuts that hold the two contacts in, and replace them. The contact disk is usually reusable.

 

Throw everthing back together and it should work.

[OB99W]

[...]To pull the starter:

One 14 MM bolt and one 17mm nut hold the starter to the bellhousing.

It's either a 14mm or a 12mm nut that holds the positive cable to the starter.[...]

Another "this may be obvious" precaution: Be sure to disconnect a battery cable at the battery before removing the positive cable at the starter. Otherwise, unintended arc welding could be the least of your troubles.

 

 

Throw everthing back together and it should work

Unless you've ignored the safety precaution and yet managed to get this far, your ECU will have "forgotten" a few things, so the car may now start but not run as well as before (until you drive it a bit). That's normal, and after a few trips things should be fine again.

[WoodsWagon]

I ignored the safety precaution. I just was carefull unbolting the nut that holds the battery cable to the starter and wraped some tape around the end. As long as you don't touch anything, you wont weld your wrench and blow your battery. All in all, probably smarter to undo a battery cable at the battery before pulling it off the starter. it is doable without though.

[OB99W]

I ignored the safety precaution.[...]

That was primarily directed to the original poster, reeze, and anyone else not having a lot of experience, but it's still a good precaution even for long-time wrenchers. Burns from hot metal or battery acid should probably be avoided.

[reeze]

OB99 and 91Loyale: what great information, thanks again. That PDF article is gold, it really explains everything.

 

In response to one post here-- not sure if I mentioned it originally, but the battery is brand new (when the problem first happened I just assumed that it was the battery). Also, I removed the battery cables, cleaned the contacts (both the battery posts and the cable contacts) then tightened them up nicely.

 

This morning I got the "click" again (it's always a single click, not a rapid "click-click-click") a few times. Then, remembering what I read here about the shift position switch, I jiggled the shift lever and the car started right up. For the rest of the day it was fine. This COULD be a coincidence though-- AAMOF I can't believe it would be this simple; I don't have luck like this!

 

I'll find out tomorrow morning! Thanks again for the help.

[OB99W]

OB99 and 91Loyale: what great information, thanks again. That PDF article is gold, it really explains everything.

You're welcome; glad you liked the article.

 

 

This morning I got the "click" again (it's always a single click, not a rapid "click-click-click") a few times. Then, remembering what I read here about the shift position switch, I jiggled the shift lever and the car started right up. For the rest of the day it was fine. This COULD be a coincidence though--[...]

If it happens again, there's a way you can usually tell if it's the inhibitor switch: When you get the "click", don't release the key -- keep holding the ignition switch in the START position, and jiggle the shift lever with your other hand; if it begins to crank, even intermittently, it's probably a problem with the inhibitor switch. On the other hand, if that doesn't change anything, the cause is likely elsewhere.

[reeze]

When you get the "click", don't release the key -- keep holding the ignition switch in the START position

I'll try that, thanks. Since this problem started I've always released the key immediately if I only heard a click. I thought it was bad for the ignition coil or starter motor to keep it energized like that.

[OB99W]

[...]I've always released the key immediately if I only heard a click. I thought it was bad for the ignition coil or starter motor to keep it energized like that.

It's not a problem for the few seconds it would take to try what I suggested.