92 Legacy Auto Trans trouble

[Mikevan10]

All of a sudden, my kid's 1992 Legacy has developed the following symptoms:

 

Putting transmission in "D" (Drive) does not "engage" transmission. Acts like is in neutral. Putting in "3" has same result. Putting in "2" does drive the car, as does "1". I checked the fluid level. Level was just above the "L" mark on the dipstick with the engine warmed up to operating temp but the transmission still cool since it is about 15 degrees F outside and I only drove the car around the block. I did notice that there appeared to be very tiny bubbles in the fluid on the dip stick (in case that is of interest). I checked the level with the engine idling.

 

Any ideas?

 

Thanks for any comments/suggestion!

 

Mike V.

[jamal]

Has he been doing neutral drops?

 

When reverse mysteriously stopped working I ended up having to get a replacement transmission.

 

Actually check the front axles. if one popped out or broke somehow the car would not want to move forward and would do better with 1st selected.

[Mikevan10]

Although one never really KNOWS what an unsupervised 17 year old does, I am about as certain as I could be that "neutral drops" or any similar aggressive driving techniques are not something this particular kid would do.

 

I don't believe a problem with one of the drive shafts would show up as a problem in DRIVE but not in "1" or "2". Can you explain your reasoning?

 

Any other suggestions, please??

 

Thanks agin,

 

Mike V.

[Skip]

Sure sounds like a classic low hyd pressure problem.

 

Every body will say get a tranny flush not just a drain and fill.

 

I have had good luck with Lucas Trans fix.

 

Might keep you going untill the weather warms abit.

 

If you do choose to use it - keep it in the house

before adding it.

Even then it will take an hour to pour it all in.

 

Hope this helps

[johnceggleston]

Sure sounds like a classic low hyd pressure problem.

 

Every body will say get a tranny flush not just a drain and fill.

 

I have had good luck with Lucas Trans fix.

 

Might keep you going untill the weather warms abit.

 

If you do choose to use it - keep it in the house

before adding it.

Even then it will take an hour to pour it all in.

 

Hope this helps

skip,

what if you added it as part of a drain and refill and pre-mixed it with a couple of qts. of ATF.? is that feasible?

[Skip]

John I would have to say that is as close as you'll get with out doing a proper flush.

 

Mixing the tranny honey with ATF in a warm house will greatly reduce the

time it takes to add it.

 

P.S. I would like to read about other personal use comments on the Lucas tranny honey.

 

My experience was with a 3AT and an early 4EAT both showed better shift characteristics.

and quicker into drive when cold.

 

Both fixes could simply be read as thicker hyd fluid = better hyd pressure and some cleaning

of the spool valves ect in the tranny.

 

May be just what an aging hyd pump and innards of an auto tranny needs sometimes..

 

We all know what "Bob" thinks about the oil additive but the auto tranny is a different animal.

[Mikevan10]

Wouldn't you effectively have to do as John suggests since just adding the Lucas Trans Fix would overfill the transmission?

 

Does anyone have any other suggestions? Doesn't it seem strange that this happened so suddenly? I have not personally been driving the car but I am told that there was no warning sign (e.g. slipping) - Sunday night it was fine, Tuesday morning its a no-go.

 

Much obliged,

 

Mike V.

[Skip]

Mike I don't believe they (Lucas) tell you to drain any fluid.

 

There was one big diff between Sun night and Tue morn

 

 

-- about 30 deg F

[Mikevan10]

I meant to say Sunday night fine, Moday morning N.G. but your point is well taken. The arctic blast took hold! But driving the car for about 20 minutes/10 miles makes no difference in the way the transmission operates. I would think that if this were truly temperature related, it would get better within that operational time frame. Keep in mind it wasn't exactly balmy on Sunday either.

 

I am still wondering how you can get enough "Trans Fix" into the unit without draing some ATF first. If I recall correctly, I think my manual says the level fgoes from the LOW mark to the HIGH mark by adding one pint of fluid.

[Skip]

Does the "AT" light on the dash flash when the car is started?

This is the way the TCU tells you it detects a problem.

 

After the drive, when put in "D" it just sits - no gear engagement? No noise?

 

How about reverse?

 

 

I agree overfilling an auto tranny is frowned upon.

 

I also have a difficult time getting a true reading on all my Legacys auto dip sticks.

[nipper]

I dont think its hyd pressure, i think you have a fried transmission. Before you do anything what is the condition of the fluid. If it is brown or smells burnt, then you are done. If its red and smells fine, you can try the tranny fix in a can.

 

When you shift manually the pressure to the clutches is higher then letting the car shift itself.

 

nipper

[Mikevan10]

Skip,

 

No flashing lights. I don't recall ever seeing an "AT" light. Remember this is a 1992 model. Don't know how much the ECU interacts with the transmission.

 

After the car is driven (in the "2" position) selecting "D" does nothing (just as when the car is stone cold). No wierd noises. Acts like it is in neutral.

 

Reverse works fine.

 

Thanks again for the comments!

 

Mike

[nipper]

Skip,

 

No flashing lights. I don't recall ever seeing an "AT" light. Remember this is a 1992 model. Don't know how much the ECU interacts with the transmission.

 

After the car is driven (in the "2" position) selecting "D" does nothing (just as when the car is stone cold). No wierd noises. Acts like it is in neutral.

 

Reverse works fine.

 

Thanks again for the comments!

 

Mike

 

Reverse works off 2nd gear.

 

nipper

[Mikevan10]

I have been scanning this forum for automatic transmission related threads and I see lots of references to the "TCU" (which I believe is an electronic transmission control unit) as well as solenoids and other electric/electronic wizardry. Yet no one who has commented on my particular problem has mentioned anything to do with electricity. Is it clear that my problem is definitely mechanical?

 

Also, can anyone tell me what the model of transmission I would have? Again, it is a 1992 Legacy, 2-wheel drive. One salvage yard I spoke with today said that I need a trans from a 1992 car. 1991 and 1993 used different units. Does this ring true?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike V.

[Mikevan10]

Oops, Skip did mention the TCU. Sorry Skip. Anyway, what are the chances this IS controls (electric) related and how might I troubleshoot it?

 

Mike V (who is not relishing the thought of spending this weekend laying in the driveway during the current FRIGID conditions....)

[nipper]

Oops, Skip did mention the TCU. Sorry Skip. Anyway, what are the chances this IS controls (electric) related and how might I troubleshoot it?

 

Mike V (who is not relishing the thought of spending this weekend laying in the driveway during the current FRIGID conditions....)

 

its minimal and wishful thinking. TCU issues are very clear cut, and always throw a code. Transmission is fairly easy to diagnose.

 

Here is a thought , does it go into 3rd at all or stay in second gear (there may be hope yet). But also the tcu may be smart enough to know the last time it tried to shift into 3rd, the engine just reved, so it wont do that again.

 

We really need to know the condition of the fluid.

 

Transmission 101

http://www.familycar.com/Transmission.htm

 

 

 

nipper

[johnceggleston]

this is a good place to start looking for parts. sort you search by distance so you view the ones within driving distance first. saves shipping.

 

http://car-part.com/

 

these are the rules on replacement trans.

 

get the same model and year as the one you have, or get the closest model and year you can AND get the TCU as well. (in AWD trans, you have to make sure you match your existing rear diff, but not in FWD.)

 

usually, the changes from one year to the next are generally pretty mild, but in order to avoid buying a worthless lump of steel, if you get the matching TCU you should be ok. check the id tag under the hood on the driver side strut tower for trans model number (at least that's where it is for 95-99) . it should be a TA102Axxxx number. (those 2 'A's indicate FWD, AWD would be 2 'Z's.)

 

the model numbers changed most every year, but that doesn't mean a 93 won't run in a 92. (salvage yards tend to be very careful in this area and they have good interchange software.) the model number is a 10 character number, (TZ102Z2CBA= 97 outback wagon, TZ102ZAAAA= 95 legacy sedan AWD) and in the 95-98 years the last 2 characters mean almost nothing. (BA=wagon, AA=sedan, i think.) in the outbak years, the 7TH character refers to the differential, and the 8TH generally refers to the year or which step in the series. (... TZ102Z2CBA=97 outback, ...TZ102Z2DBA= 98/99 outback, but these 2+1/2 years are completely interchangeable.)

 

the 90 - 94 model numbers were a little different. but if first 8 characters of the trans model number match yours, is a pretty good bet that it will work. there's a good chance it will work if the first 6 characters match since differential isn't an issue (especially if you have the TCU).

EDIT: 93/94 legacy FWD= TA102AA3AA; 90/91 legacy FWD= TA102AA1AA; the 92 is probably TA102AA2AA.

 

of course, avoid the turbos.

 

some one else with more 90 - 94 experience may know more. i hope this is more helpful than confusing.

 

 

I have been scanning this forum for automatic transmission related threads and I see lots of references to the "TCU" (which I believe is an electronic transmission control unit) as well as solenoids and other electric/electronic wizardry. Yet no one who has commented on my particular problem has mentioned anything to do with electricity. Is it clear that my problem is definitely mechanical?

 

Also, can anyone tell me what the model of transmission I would have? Again, it is a 1992 Legacy, 2-wheel drive. One salvage yard I spoke with today said that I need a trans from a 1992 car. 1991 and 1993 used different units. Does this ring true?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike V.

[Mikevan10]

Good day Subaru people. Here is additional data from last nights freezing cold session:

 

Car had not been run for 24 hours. Was sitting outside. About 11 degrees F ambient temp.

 

Started engine, moved car about 30 feet (close to garage) and let it idle a good 5 minutes. Cycled transmission through all "gear" positions as recommended by Haynes manual (without moving the car). Checked ATF level. The fluid looked nice and cherry red and did not smell burnt to me (who has never worked with/on an automatic transmission before). Basically, looked and smelled like the new Dexron III I had on hand. However, the level appeared low. It was below the lowest mark on the COLD side of the dip stick. The fluid was barely warm. I decided to drive the car a bit before adding any fluid just to make sure it did not appear low just because it was cold. As I mentioned before, the car will drive in position 1 or position 2 but not in 3 or D. Reverse also works fine. Anyway, I took off in 2 and drove about 5 miles (pretty gently; never exceeded about 3500 rpm). Towards the end of my test drive I tried 3 and D. 3 was totally unresponsive (engine free to rev) but I noticed that if I took my foot off the throttle, shifted from 2 to D, paused, then GENTLY opened throttle (i.e. "gave it gas"), I could feel the trans attempting to pull the car! I was actually able to cruise at speed in this fashion. However, if I were to attempt too much gas peddle, the trans would "disengage" and the engine would race. It would "recouple" if I let off the gas and GENTLY reapplied it. Got the picture?

 

When I got back home, I checked the fluid. This time, the fluid level appeared to be all the way up into the good zone on the HOT side of the dip stick (i.e. between the high and low level marks on the hot side). The fluid was still barely warm. Closer inspection of the dip stick, however, revealed what appeared to be "dry" spots along the length of the stick that at first appeared to be immersed in fluid. But I couldn't be sure if it was just that the fluid was getting wiped off the stick as I pulled it from the tube. So I dried the stick off and checked it again. I did this several times with basically the same results. That is, first glance indicated fluid was in the correct level zone but closer inspection showed "dry spots", or "dry" lines well below the low level line. REALLY hard to say.

 

I decided to add fluid. I ended up adding close to a pint of Dexron III. After driving and rechecking level, I had essentially same result: First glance at the stick indicated level was good (it never was ABOVE the full line) but you could always detedct spots that appeared "dry" if you looked closely enough. The performance was same after adding fluid. I ended up taking my kid for a ride and showed him how it was possible to nurse the car along in drive and let him try his hand. He seemed to "get it" so I told him he could drive the car WHEN AND WHERE NECESSARY. My suspicion is that I will need to replace the transmission but I am hoping to put it of until the driveway temperature is at least in the 20s!!

 

Oh yeah, you cannot start off in D. The engine will just race. You have to put it in 2 (or 1) and once you get up to about 35 mph, you can do the gentle shift into D. If speed drops too low (I'm going to say below about 20 mph), for example to take a sharp turn, you have to drop it back down to 2 until you regain sufficent speed.

 

I have more questions and comments about waht nipper and John write above , but I'll leave it here for now. Does this help pinpoint the problem???

 

Thaks a million guys.

 

Mike

[nipper]

hrmmmmmmmm

 

When it shifts into third, do you have to be gentle on the gas, or if your hard on the gas does it slip?

 

The red fluid is a good thing. Humor me and check your antifreeze condition. Is it contaminated. I am still leaning towards an internal tranny problem, The fact it went to third tells me its not an electrical issue

 

 

nipper

[Mikevan10]

Thanks for the comments nip!

 

OK, I gather from your comments that this is a 3 speed transmission (I told you I was ignorant about automatics!). So when you are asking about the characteristics of its operation in third, you must be asking about how it operates in D. And the answer to your question is that when it shifts into third (with selector in the D position) you have to be light on the throttle and increase throttle opening gradually as vehicle speed picks up. If you give it to much "gas", it disengages and revs. I thought I had covered this in my previous post.

 

By the way, putting the selector in position 3 does nothing. The engine just revs. This is regardless of whether you try it from a standstill or while rolling along at any speed.

 

What method are you suggesting for checking the coolant characteristics. Visually? Chemical analysis?

 

Thanks again.

 

Mike V.

[nipper]

Sadly your done. Dont look further. Your tranny is done.

 

What you describe as slipping into neutral is your transmission slipping. The clutches are shot in third gear. Once an automatic starts slipping, there isnt anything that can be done.

 

Yes people will talk of a brake band adjustment, but that is on second gear.

 

I dont know if you have a three speed or four speed auto, but if you only have 1-2-d its a three 1-2-3-d its a four speed.

 

nipper

[Mikevan10]

Yeah, I was pretty much resigned to facing a transmission swap... But please elighten me as to what it was that led you to that conclusion. Something in my most recent post? I thought I had described that the transmission was slipping in my original post...

 

My selector has 1-2-3-D so I guess it is a four speed. Since I don't get any drive with the stick in 3 but I can coax it into pulling the car along in D, are you suggesting that the 3rd "gear" clutch is shot but the whatever "clutches" it into 4th is not?

 

Mike V.

[nipper]

If the car wont hold third gear, it will not shift into 4th gear, that does for any car with an automatic.

 

Your first post made it sound like ti wouldnt go into third gear at all, not that it slipped when it went into third.

 

"Putting transmission in "D" (Drive) does not "engage" transmission. Acts like is in neutral. Putting in "3" has same result. Putting in "2" does drive the car, as does "1". "

 

at that point is was possible that it was a bad solenoid.

 

 

nipper

[Skip]

Mike I'll let Nipper anf John handle this from now on,

but you have a 4EAT.

 

meaning

4 speed Electronic Automatic Transmission.

 

It still, to my feable mind, sounds like low hyd pressure to the clutches.

 

I read you have similar trouble reading the dip stick.

You could have tried the Lucas and we still don't know if the tranny is full?

 

I believe Nipper was hoping to rule out a breech of the trans fluid cooler located inside the radiator.

 

As I said I'm unsubscribing as it appears Nipper and John have a better handle on this.

 

Good luck sir, hope it warms up soon and that Phil was correct.

[Mikevan10]

I'm sorry guys but I am dense and I guess I also am prone to beating dead horses (you should remember from previous threads...). PLEASE note that I am not questioning anyone's expertise, I just am trying to understand and also I want to make sure that I am describing the situation well enough to understand. I appeciate how easy it is to get off track in an on-line troubleshooting session. So here goes a shot at very specific questions:

 

The car does drive in D. What "gear" do you think I am in at that point? If I remeber correctly, the tach read something like 2500 rpm while vehicle speed was something like 50 mph.

 

The car does nothing when you select 3. It doesn't matter whether the car is stopped or rolling at any speed when you select 3. As soon as you select 3, the engine just revs.

 

At one point I did say "Putting transmission in "D" (Drive) does not "engage" transmission. Acts like is in neutral. Putting in "3" has same result. Putting in "2" does drive the car, as does "1". " HOWEVER, further testing revealed that if I got up to speed in 2, let off the gas, selected D and gently reapplied gas, it DOES drive in D. But if I give it too much gas at any point, the engine will "disengage" and rev without driving the car.

 

4EATs come in both 2WD and FWD versions?

 

Who is Phil?

 

Gratefully,

Mike