92 Legacy Auto Trans trouble

[OB99W]

Mike, as I'm sure you know, a little knowledge is, umm,...

 

...so below are links to a lot more knowledge. When you read the following, you might want to pay particular attention to portions concerning High Clutch, Duty Solenoid A, and related line pressure topics. These may take a while to digest, but at least you can do that in the warm comfort of your home and not in the cold driveway.

 

http://endwrench.com/pdf/feb2004pdf/4EAT.pdf

http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/02Winter4EATDiagServ.pdf

Correction to 4EATDiagServ:

http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/4EATService.pdf

http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/drivetrain/02Winter4EATTransOp.pdf

 

EDIT: I reread what I said, and realized that it could be taken the wrong way. In case there's any doubt, I DID NOT mean to impugn the expertise of any forum member; I only meant that Mike might find additional information useful.

[nipper]

I'm sorry guys but I am dense and I guess I also am prone to beating dead horses (you should remember from previous threads...). PLEASE note that I am not questioning anyone's expertise, I just am trying to understand and also I want to make sure that I am describing the situation well enough to understand. I appeciate how easy it is to get off track in an on-line troubleshooting session. So here goes a shot at very specific questions:

 

The car does drive in D. What "gear" do you think I am in at that point? If I remeber correctly, the tach read something like 2500 rpm while vehicle speed was something like 50 mph.

 

The car does nothing when you select 3. It doesn't matter whether the car is stopped or rolling at any speed when you select 3. As soon as you select 3, the engine just revs.

 

At one point I did say "Putting transmission in "D" (Drive) does not "engage" transmission. Acts like is in neutral. Putting in "3" has same result. Putting in "2" does drive the car, as does "1". " HOWEVER, further testing revealed that if I got up to speed in 2, let off the gas, selected D and gently reapplied gas, it DOES drive in D. But if I give it too much gas at any point, the engine will "disengage" and rev without driving the car.

 

4EATs come in both 2WD and FWD versions?

 

Who is Phil?

 

Gratefully,

Mike

 

When you put the car in D it goes through all the gears starting out in first.

 

Tranny is slipping, its not disnegeing, the clutches are loosing traction, which makes it feel like its in neutral.

 

nipper

[Mikevan10]

So, gentlemen, do I understand that the bottom line consensus here is that this is (almost) definitely an internal, mechanical problem with the transmission and that the most practical, and in fact the cheapest, solution is to replace the tnasmission and the TCU should also be replaced?

[johnceggleston]

yes, you need to replace the trans. once they start to slip it's time to replace.

 

search for a replacement trans. buying a used trans will be cheaper than a rebuild. labor for removal and replacement will be in the 5 hr. range. when i did it i think it was more like 7 hours including the rear main seal and the 'seperator plate' on the engine.

 

that brings us back to my earlier post, which trans will work. check on the 'for sale' site here, (forum> marketplace> classified,for sale), or http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12 . or post a new thread in the 'wanted' section. now is when you need your trans model number.

 

i would look for a trans close to home. shipping can run 150$ easy, maybe 250$ for coast to coast. so a 500$ trans nearby = a 350/250$ far away.

 

if you have time and space, you might consider looking or waiting for a wrecked 92 legacy. some can be had for 300$ - 600$ and maybe you can sell some other parts to offset your trans expenses.

 

keep at it you're learning more every day.

 

this is not a recommendation but a possibility, and only good for some one with survival skills, willing to be stranded in the dead of winter a long way from home. it maybe possible to drive this car for a while by starting in 1, shifting into 2 and running up the speed to about 40 - 50 or more and then shifitng into D. but again it won't work for long, and it will leave you stranded eventually.

 

 

So, gentlemen, do I understand that the bottom line consensus here is that this is (almost) definitely an internal, mechanical problem with the transmission and that the most practical, and in fact the cheapest, solution is to replace the tnasmission and the TCU should also be replaced?

[OB99W]

[...]

When I got back home, I checked the fluid. This time, the fluid level appeared to be all the way up into the good zone on the HOT side of the dip stick (i.e. between the high and low level marks on the hot side). The fluid was still barely warm. Closer inspection of the dip stick, however, revealed what appeared to be "dry" spots along the length of the stick that at first appeared to be immersed in fluid. But I couldn't be sure if it was just that the fluid was getting wiped off the stick as I pulled it from the tube. So I dried the stick off and checked it again. I did this several times with basically the same results. That is, first glance indicated fluid was in the correct level zone but closer inspection showed "dry spots", or "dry" lines well below the low level line. REALLY hard to say.

 

I decided to add fluid. I ended up adding close to a pint of Dexron III. After driving and rechecking level, I had essentially same result: First glance at the stick indicated level was good (it never was ABOVE the full line) but you could always detedct spots that appeared "dry" if you looked closely enough.[...]

I've always found that getting an accurate reading of the 4EAT fluid level is a large pain. First see this:

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showpost.php?p=479136

 

Since writing the post I linked to above, I've modified my approach further. Since ATF on the walls of the dipstick tube definitely makes it hard to tell what the true level is, I now pull the dipstick, dry it off, and wait a couple of minutes for what's in the tube to drain back. I then insert the dipstick, wait another minute for it to pick up what is hopefully the correct level, and remove it again to read it. Even after all that, I look at both sides and if one is lower I assume it's the indication that's likely to be more accurate. The 4EAT seems to be particularly sensitive to low ATF level when the temperature is cold; as you can tell from the different markings on the dipstick, ATF volume varies quite a bit with temperature.

 

While you shouldn't overfill the trans, it seems to me that remaining unsure that it's sufficiently filled is pointless if the alternative is to replace the trans. If you truly overfill it, having to drain a bit isn't too terrible.

 

By the way, although too high an ATF level can lead to bubbles in the fluid, too low can also cause aeration. If there's enough air, it raises the apparent level on the dipstick, making you think the level is high enough when it really isn't. Obviously, air doesn't work too well in hydraulics.

 

I'm not saying with any certainty that the problem is due to low fluid, but given you're thinking of changing out the trans, it might be worth taking another look.

 

Besides ATF, other things shrink with cold, so it's possible that some clearance opened up a bit and has reduced hydraulic pressures enough to be the problem. Is there any possibility of putting the car in a warm garage for a day or so and see if that makes any difference?

 

(Yeah, I'm sure that somebody is going to me for offering alternative thoughts to junking the trans. )

[nipper]

 

Besides ATF, other things shrink with cold, so it's possible that some clearance opened up a bit and has reduced hydraulic pressures enough to be the problem. Is there any possibility of putting the car in a warm garage for a day or so and see if that makes any difference?

 

(Yeah, I'm sure that somebody is going to me for offering alternative thoughts to junking the trans. )

 

 

 

 

There are you happy? :-p

 

Actually thats a decent experiment, but since no one esle has that problem, the tranny is still fried. And in truth, cold thick fluid usually works better then warmer thin fluid.

 

nipper

[Mikevan10]

John said:

 

"this is not a recommendation but a possibility, and only good for some one with survival skills, willing to be stranded in the dead of winter a long way from home. it maybe possible to drive this car for a while by starting in 1, shifting into 2 and running up the speed to about 40 - 50 or more and then shifitng into D. but again it won't work for long, and it will leave you stranded eventually."

 

Which perfectly backs up what I had said previously:

 

"Oh yeah, you cannot start off in D. The engine will just race. You have to put it in 2 (or 1) and once you get up to about 35 mph, you can do the gentle shift into D. If speed drops too low (I'm going to say below about 20 mph), for example to take a sharp turn, you have to drop it back down to 2 until you regain sufficent speed."

 

And this is what I have the kid doing until I come up with the "proper" used transmission. He will not be any more than 20 miles from home.

 

Now to start researching what is available locally for used transmissions and how much flexibility I have as far as year, trans model number, etc.

 

My Haynes manual doesn't even mention a "TCU". Where is that bugger located? Is it plug-connected like the ECU/ECM?

 

Thans all. Onward.

 

Mike V.

[OB99W]

 

 

There are you happy? :-p

Not necessarily happy, but at least my expectations were met.

 

 

Actually thats a decent experiment, but since no one esle has that problem, the tranny is still fried. And in truth, cold thick fluid usually works better then warmer thin fluid.

I've had the problem, to at least some degree; when quite cold, the trans was consistently very reluctant (read took a minute or so) to go into drive, and it was down less than 1/2 pint when measured fully warm. Yes, cold ATF is more viscous than warm, but its volume is also significantly lessened at low temps. In my case at least, that was apparently enough to make the difference. After bringing the fluid up to the proper level, I've never again experienced the problem.

 

Obviously, what approach to take is Mike's decision; I'd be interested in reading of the outcome of the "trans"plant, if Mike would be so kind to post back once it's completed.

[johnceggleston]

yes it is a plug in unit and easy to replace, but unless you get an off year trans you won't need to replace it. search car-part.com for 92 legacy trans and see whats available. post a wanted ad here and see if you get lucky. also if you search car-part.com for a 92 legacy trans computer one of the early pages will give you a clue as to it's location, lrft side under the dash i think. but again, you don't need one unless you get an off year trans.

 

http://car-part.com/

 

or this:

 

http://www.crazedlist.org/

 

John said:

 

"this is not a recommendation but a possibility, and only good for some one with survival skills, willing to be stranded in the dead of winter a long way from home. it maybe possible to drive this car for a while by starting in 1, shifting into 2 and running up the speed to about 40 - 50 or more and then shifitng into D. but again it won't work for long, and it will leave you stranded eventually."

 

Which perfectly backs up what I had said previously:

 

"Oh yeah, you cannot start off in D. The engine will just race. You have to put it in 2 (or 1) and once you get up to about 35 mph, you can do the gentle shift into D. If speed drops too low (I'm going to say below about 20 mph), for example to take a sharp turn, you have to drop it back down to 2 until you regain sufficent speed."

 

And this is what I have the kid doing until I come up with the "proper" used transmission. He will not be any more than 20 miles from home.

 

Now to start researching what is available locally for used transmissions and how much flexibility I have as far as year, trans model number, etc.

 

My Haynes manual doesn't even mention a "TCU". Where is that bugger located? Is it plug-connected like the ECU/ECM?

 

Thans all. Onward.

 

Mike V.

[Mikevan10]

Just to let y'all know..... in hopes of getting this trans to last just a bit longer, and maybe even work just a little bit better in the mean time, I went ahead and bought 4 quarts of ATF and a quart of Lucas Transmission Fix, drained what would come out of the trans pan and put the new ATF and Trans Fix in. Total waste of time and money. Operates exactly as it did before the exercise. I never have believed in snake oils and I doubt I ever will.

 

I'll be in touch.

 

Mike V.

[nipper]

Just to let y'all know..... in hopes of getting this trans to last just a bit longer, and maybe even work just a little bit better in the mean time, I went ahead and bought 4 quarts of ATF and a quart of Lucas Transmission Fix, drained what would come out of the trans pan and put the new ATF and Trans Fix in. Total waste of time and money. Operates exactly as it did before the exercise. I never have believed in snake oils and I doubt I ever will.

 

I'll be in touch.

 

Mike V.

 

 

:-p

 

Sometimes they work as a last ditch effort, but even when they work, its not for very long

 

nipper