OK I need headgaskets, not a new engine.. need quick answer! Thanks all

[daeron]

Allright, we know I talk to much, so I shall try to keep this as succinct as possible. I changed my oil today.

 

Last July I concluded that I had a partially blown headgasket. I had an incurable bubbling out of my radiator overflow; new radiator, NO thermostat, whenever the engine was on and after shutting down, for a while, bubbling.. and it held pressure. I unlock the rad cap as I walk up to a cold car in the morning, and it relieves pressure into the overflow. (New radiator cap)

 

I have NEVER seen any trace of oil in the coolant, its is a rusty red-brown color. No whitish tinge to it at all. and absolutely never seen any trace of water in the oil. I use water, because I go through it; I am up to adding about a quart and a half a day; it just bubbles off. As long as I keep water in it, it runs at PERFECT temperature. However, at one point, about 200 miles before my PREVIOUS oil change (before today) I put in over half a gallon of straight, new antifreeze I had found in my trunk. When I changed the oil, there SHOULD have been some antifreeze contamination, if there was water contamination. No Trace, At All. I capitalize, because I checked it 235334 times, in glass vessels up in the sunlight, et cetera.

 

I have NOT done a compression test, as I have had no power loss. I am curerently having cold-running issues that I think are CTS related, but I am in the process of ruling that out. Basically, for the last seven months or so, I have knowingly been driving with a headgasket that had blown the bit between combustion chamber, and coolant jacket. I religiously refilled it with water every day (or every time it cooled off, if needed be) and it has NOT overheated.. I don't think. There have been a couple of "hotspots" here and there that were quickly alleviated, and I have a digidash anyway. I do not know fully how to assimilate the data it gives me. I was anticipating also getting a pair of JY heads and having them spec'd and milled if needed (buy the heads, machine work for free) JUST to be safe.

 

I have been waiting on money to do the bloody headgaskets.. When I looked up the prices, it seemed like the fel-pro kit alone was gonna run me at least 80, and then dealer intake manifold, and front and rear seals (also, needed, I leak too much) put the tag up above 150, plus heads, maybe 30 bucks... so, like, almost 200 total. That kind of cash hasn't even been REMOTELY accessible since, well, about August. We are talking a mild inability to buy groceries.. :-\

 

Until I saw this

 

 

I had had NO worries about water in my crankcase, or lower end damage. I had been thinking, "no water in oil (yet) so I am kosher, right?"

 

Upon seeing all that white goop, I was scared. I had put a some seafoam in the oil when I changed it last, and (okay, shoot me) never got around to changing it before a full 3,000 miles had snuck past me. (I have had a crazy life. Ask me about it sometime.) Bosch oil filter the whole time. I know that this white goop can come up for other reasons, like PCV system clogging, and I have to give this whole top end a flush out now to make sure everything is operating properly so I can start troubleshooting.. but what do you guys think? I think I might want to just start thinking about a JY engine instead.

 

Here are some pics of my oil:

 

 

 

 

 

And I just thought this one was kinda pretty

 

 

(except for my thumb there )

 

That oil looks like it has NO water in it whatsoever to me. My local junkyard charges 82.99 for an engine block with heads, no intake. the online price list says "Head 28.98," I can only assume thats for a pair for the engine (these guys *are* reasonable.) The other place is 150 and 40, respectively.

 

What I HAVE done on my engine, and when:

 

Timing belts, 30K ago.

Water pump, ~8K ago.

wow, i really thought there would be more on that list until just now.. but the rest has been other stuff..

 

Should I just buy a new engine? go to the boneyards with a comp tester and a booster pack, find one with good compression that looks allright, and get ready to do T-belts, water pump, bearings and oil seals on it instead? Which would be more time? Do I really need to WORRY about the water in the oil? Is there any way to check the crankshaft out to a degree that will give me more information? AFAIK, the only thing I could do would be drop the oilpan and the crank saddles.. but thats partially disassembling my motor, I don't wanna just DO that some day to check something out.. Guide me!!!

 

Cripes, thank you all for reading all of that. That was a long post.

[jeffast]

looks alright to me, although i would start putting aside a few bucks for that head gasket

[GeneralDisorder]

Sounds like a partial blown HG from the cylinder into the water jacket. I've had ones very similar to that where it would only overheat after it lost most of it's coolant.

 

The bit of water/oil mix under the cap is typical of condensation - blowby from the burning coolant. It doesn't mix with the oil, but it does condense on the cooler oil cap like that. You might also find traces in the PCV tubes from the valve covers. This could also be indicating a failed intake gasket - which might account for your coolant loss as well.... for the price of the HG's though - I would just do them regardless as it's not that much more work to take the heads off once the manifold is off, and it's probably a good idea to do the cam case o-rings and reseal the valve covers, etc while you are in there.

 

Set of Fel-Pro's is about $35 shipped from Autozone.

 

Get the cam case o-rings, and the intake gaskets from the dealer - about $10 for all. You'll need a tube of RTV if you don't have some for the cam case.

 

Mark the lifters for re-install. I use a flap of cardboard from a box. Take a utility knife and make an arrow pointing to the front of the engine. Then make two rows of 4 X's in the flap, and shove the lifter and rocker into adjoining X's. This way you can easily keep track of them for reinstall.

 

For the price of the JY engine - it's going to cost triple or more than doing the HG's on your existing engine. Plus at least you *know* what you have right now. You might end up with something that has a rod knock, etc. Plus doing the HG's is less work than pulling the engine IMO. No hoist required for one.

 

Having done it before, a HG job should cost no more than $50 in parts. A bit more if you need to have the heads trued up. BUT you can do that yourself if you are creative . A sheet of glass, a blanket and several sheets of sandpaper will do a nice job actually. These type of graphite/metal HG's actually prefer a more coarse surface than the new engines that use the MLM gaskets.

 

GD

[daeron]

the basic question at issue is: Do I have water contamination in my bottom end from running like this for about 10,000 miles? Are my crankshaft bearings worth putting headgaskets on?

 

The answer, thus far, seems to be that my motor seems good enough, and ALSO that I should chuck the idea of the fel pro headgasket SET, and just assemble-my-own kit with the right parts, then? what exactly ARE all the rest of the pieces included in the kit? (I read it all at one point, and am going to do so now, so that question IS somewhat rhetorical.)

 

Regarding the heads, I am torn. Knowing how high the gauge has gone, I want to have grab set, take them to my buddy's shop, and get them done. Either way, I'll have him rough them up a tad, I can be there while he does it I ALSO wanted to get the heads ready ahead of time, so I could just pull the old heads and have the new ones ready to go.. but with the cash situation, I will probably just wager the extra day it will take me to get new heads, on the hope that my heads check out OK. They should be...*fingers crossed*

 

Thanks for the latenight feedback.

[GeneralDisorder]

Engine should be fine - the contamination is purely *steam* blowby. It condenses on cold places, but being your oil looks clean there should be no damage to any bearings.

 

The "Kit" comes with crappy intake and exhaust gaskets, valve stem seals, valve cover gaskets, cam case o-rings, and some other misc. bits like the oil fill tube gasket, thottle body/carb base gaskets, etc, etc.... it also has the MPFI/Turbo intake gaskets - it's a universal kit so comes with everything for all the EA82's, not just the SPFI...... All things you either don't need, or definetely want from the dealer. Just buy the individual HG's, and get the rest from the dealer as they are superior.

 

GD

[GeneralDisorder]

As far as heads - I've seen some serious deterioration from coolant passages blowing into the cylinder. Had several on SPFI/Carb EA82's that I'm sure wouldn't have held for long without a bit of sanding. The place *I* go to has a mill, but my friend that took his heads to have them done when I did the HG's took em to a place that put them on a big belt sander. Actually looked fine, and worked good. And being aluminium heads it would be easy to do that yourself - just get a nice true flat surface like glass, glue down about 6 sheets of the desired sandpaper, and work them under their own weight with a swirling motion till you get a nice even flat surface. Check with a metal straightedge and a feeler gauge.

 

GD

[robm]

You live in Florida. Did it finally get "cold" down there? That sort of condensation on the oil filler cap is typical in non-tropical climates. Combustion blowby gases contain water, and it winds up condensing, along with oil fumes, on the cool filler cap, forming that milkshake sludge. The photo was kind of fuzzy, but it didn't look too unusual to me.

 

Do your head gaskets, and don't worry about the bottom end. I hope you can scare up the cash for the parts.

 

Good luck.

[nipper]

I guess you dont have the oil anymore. Simple test. Take a sample of oil and put it in a clas jar and sit it on the shelf. Oil and water dont mix, and the water will seperate out.

To me the oil looks fine. White gunk in the cap is more or less normal on an engine, especially if the oil fill is on a long neck.

Start aving pennies for a HG kit, as somepoint that thing will no longer cooperate with you.

 

nipper

[daeron]

Well, thats more good news. I had made a few comments about my situation in other threads, and gotten suggestions that I might be in for more than I thought I was.. good to hear that my fears are (probably) a little over the top.

[idosubaru]

the one motor that i saw that was driven for awhile with blown headgaskets...adding water all the time like you mentioned, had significant amount of metal missing on the head and block where the leak occured. engine held fine, i did not reuse the heads, they would have needed repaired. welded and machined i assume, but i had enough extra heads that i didn't bother even checking them out though i still have them. they probably had less then 50% of the original cross-sectional area left to seal the gasket with at the leakage point.

[daeron]

Well I am already ready to buy heads, if necessary.. In a way, I want to buy them in the first place.. just have to watch the cash front. I am *trying* to replace the front clip on a friend's volvo for some extra cash, which I have already mentally earmarked for the HG job.. but progress with that particular young lady's volvo has been slow,

 

The more info I hear from people who have seen the results of (mis)treating an EA-82 like I have for no more than 12,000 miles, the better. Thanks for helping me make up my mind. Any particularly cheap dealer i could buy the dealership parts online from? I can find the fel-pro stuff pretty cheap, I know already.

[Prospeeder]

http://www.1stsubaruparts.com/

 

if you know the part number its helpful, theres a few other online dealers too

 

go to the catalog, and then engine, clylinder head and valves, click the next one, and then headgasket, 25$ for it

[GeneralDisorder]

http://www.1stsubaruparts.com/

 

if you know the part number its helpful, theres a few other online dealers too

 

go to the catalog, and then engine, clylinder head and valves, click the next one, and then headgasket, 25$ for it

 

Fel-Pro's are better, and are only $16 each from Autozone.

 

GD

[daeron]

yes, GD, thanks, and I already knew that about the HG only from autozone.. believe me. When I was price checking I simply ignored the gasket only price (beyond a wince) and presumed that the kit would be appropriate? looks like I was wrong, knock on wood.

 

I'm searching, but I'll ask anyhow, what about front and read main seals and cam seals? dealer or non dealer OK? the T-belts were done, and the waterpump, separately.. the belts are 30K old. I am not replacing them, not yet anyhow, doing them as a one-off in the future shall be easy enough. It will be nice to put a timing belt on an engine that already HAS one, for a change... (thank god for non-interference engines!!!)

[GeneralDisorder]

Unless you are planning to pull the engine there's no reason to do the cam or crank seals. They rarely fail in practice, and the cam and front crank seal are accesible later anyway. I usually evaluate that stuff as I go.

 

GD

[daeron]

evaluate that stuff as I go.

GD

 

 

Engine leaks oil. (puddle confirmation, not being burnt.) Where you ask? see quote.

[GeneralDisorder]

I had a clogged valve breather (PCV) hose cause one of the original cam seals to pop right out the front on my sedan. Of course that leaked at a rate of about 1 quart ever 10 miles.....

 

GD

[daeron]

okay, BUMP.

 

My car will not start. I had been thinking I had some sort of FI issue, but the TPS has been changed (i havent verified that the one I put in is working NOW but it was fine ~8K ago when I put it in) the MAF has been swapped with another and I went back with my original unit cuz it looked better. havent actually TESTED it, but its a beauty. Disassembled and cleaned the IAC valve. it almost tries to start at first, and I have only taken two cold attempts at it, but it rapidly floods out and TOTALLY fails to start. A compression test will confirm that my "killer issue" here is in fact my headgasket. If the comp check passes then I know how to proceed to get my car back to life.... but I am betting its my "been blown for six or eight months" headgasket that is FINALLY causing me an issue.

 

I am going to try and con one of my brothers into bringing the compression tester down from the shop tonight, but I think it wont start due to low compression on one cylinder... since ive been bubbling, I think this is a reasonable assumption... The passenger's side heads are more likely to blow, just because of the way the water flows in the engine, right? the drivers side gets water first, and if one side starves its the passenger side...

 

So, I am friggin BROKE. got $100 in pocket. just got canned again on monday, apparently they did NOT like me staying home sunday to try and work on the thing... even though they didnt say so when I called in on the telephone. So I have time, i *think* I have money.

 

Fel-pro permatorque head gaskets from autozone, check.

 

Cam case O-rings from dealer, check.

 

Intake gasket from dealer, check.

 

anything else NEEDED??? because I thought there would be, or else I would have done this long ago.. I was assuming I would get the "kit" from fel pro and replace the intake gasket and cam cas O-rings (if they are even in it) with dealer parts. I WANTED to do my crank and cam seals while I was at it.. IF I get into things and it looks like I need those seals, can I go non-dealer, or are the camshaft and crankshaft seals dealer only bits??

 

Am I forgetting anything? I do NOT have time to search, I need to get my resume in order, and find a way to get in touch with my bro without a telephone (thank you, bellsouth. I had a roomate with the same first name as mine, he was a deadbeat and is now gone.. but ehy wanted ID from me. the letter took two weeks to get here, and they cut the fone before I had a chance to fax anything.

 

when it rains on me, it F**KING POURS!!!!!!!

[Prospeeder]

well cam seals i would just get at the parts store, who cares, i got my Main seal from the parts store and it has sealed fine. go cheap if its nessesary and budget doesnt allow. Oh dont forget oil and coolant. Iv herd those stupid exhaust manifold bolts strip out easy, so be carful, along with the intake bolts, breakage on those are Easy. so be prepared, as they are dealer only bolts

[daeron]

well cam seals i would just get at the parts store, who cares, i got my Main seal from the parts store and it has sealed fine. go cheap if its nessesary and budget doesnt allow. Oh dont forget oil and coolant. Iv herd those stupid exhaust manifold bolts strip out easy, so be carful, along with the intake bolts, breakage on those are Easy. so be prepared, as they are dealer only bolts

 

Shee-Ite, I would have forgotten oil and coolant.....

 

dang, and I just changed my oil, too...

 

I guess RE using my 200 mile old oil (probly less than that) is probably a bad idea, just because of contamination issues involved in draining into a pan... drat.

[revbill]

it almost tries to start at first, and I have only taken two cold attempts at it, but it rapidly floods out and TOTALLY fails to start.

 

Have you checked for spark and all that? You might run through the basic "no start" things in case there's something besides the gasket causing the problem. This isn't to say that your diagnosis is wrong, but I know from experience that having a bunch of crap come down on you at once can cloud your thinking and make you jump to conclusions.

 

The "tries to start" part reminds me of when I spent an afternoon trying to figure out why a Loyale woudln't start before I checked that #@$$#*& screw in the rotor, which had fallen out.

 

And I've started one of these engines with a pretty busted HG and it didn't keep it from starting.

 

If you do need a HG right away, you can get by with what you've laid out. And I wouldn't reuse the oil.

[daeron]

here is a 45 second video i shot, in the dark, of the engine running. Well, I am waiting on youtube to "process it," it will be here shortly.

 

Bill, I have NOT independently verified spark at all points yet.. BUT i did get her to start, as I anticipated I would. starts have been getting harder lately.. gradually.. but dont hesitate to shoot these things that we all forget once in a while at me.

 

as I said, I DID just go out and manage to start it... it took some doing, and after a few moments at higher RPMS it even idled long enough for me to dash in and get my camera... the beginning of the vid is the engine stumbling along, then me hitting the throttle cable to get the RPMS back up.. it idles for a bit at about 1600 or so, where it should idle cold.. and then sputters a bit more. the video itself is worthless, but the audio MAY be helpful...

 

While I am at it, I read in the FSM about doing the headgaskets.. and under the "cylinder head" section, it gets into detail about removing all the valves and valve springs... I shouldn't need to bother with that, should I??

 

I have assisted, and seen, and been around headgasket jobs on cars many times before.. but this is the first time *I* have had to worry about quarterbacking the entire affair. I am more than confident that I can do it, but PLEASE humor me and answer all my little assinine questions, :-p

 

GD has already mentioned in this thread to keep the lifters upright and marked in order, I know all about that and plan on using a box, yadda yadda yadda... BUT all I should need to be doing is REMOVING this stuff, and not disassembling the camshaft/casing assembly?

[Prospeeder]

if its burning oil at start up, it would be a good idea to remove all the valves and put in new valve stem seals, but not its not nessesary. i did a head replacment in my Mazda 323 and it wasnt hard and cost me like 120$ total, including the reman head.

[daeron]

 

No oil burning.. just a slow leak. Chances are i am just going to ignore that, to be honest.. this car is bound for the junkyard sooner or later anyhow, and the chances are high that i will be keeping the motor when that happens. its already gotten a water pump and timing belts care of yours truly, and soon will have headgaskets..

 

I am still making sure i have properly ruled out all my "other things," and the compression checker is like 100 miles away. My oldest brother will be bringing it in two tomorrow when he comes in to work.. My plan is to get someone over here to run the key, verify spark at all four cylinders, then do a "finger" compression check. if it fails the finger check, then I know I am safe to go spend my money.

 

Otherwise, it looks like I will be waiting until tomorrow to do any more. "Passing" a finger compression check will NOT satisfy me, since this engine has been running strong since I got it.... if three of them are at 140 and one is at 100, i do NOT trust my ability to tell the difference.... I know I can only hold about 70 PSI on the end of a 1/4 inch air hose, and the spark plug hole is a tad larger than that...

[Gloyale]

If you where burning that much coolant, you'd have thick white/grey smoke that smelled like antifreeze. I haven't headr anything that really suggests head gasket failure here. Have you checked all hoses? heater hoses, the little bypass hoses from under intake and next to throttlebody? Leaks from the heater hoses will often only steam out water and it drips onto the driver side exhaust and evaporates.

 

It is backwards logic to be planning a headgasket job when you really have not confirmed this to be the trouble. Also, running only water is wreaking havoc on your sensors, water pump, heater core, radiator, and the block itself. Terrible idea. When you installed the new water pump, did you note wheher it had a cast impeller like OEM? Or did it have the stamped steel, fan blade looking impeller aftermarket rebuilders use? If it is the stamped, fan blade looking type you are in for trouble. Running just water will rust those thin little blades to nothing and you'll be left with a bare shaft spinning in there and no circulation. Those rust particle will then lodge in your heater core and raditor and rust those out.

 

FYI, I've seen at least 3 of these engines with totally blown headgaskets, and all of them still ran fairly normal with the exception of the nasty smoke and eventually getting hot. I've seen these engines run half decent(literally) on just the drivers side 2 cylinders. So I don't think one low cylinder would cause a "no start" conditon.

 

If you have to change the HG's, do the cam seals, front main, and probably the oil pump seals as well. Rear main seal requires engine removal so leave that one alone. be ready for the rockers to fall when you remove the cam case. If you reach your fingers in you can hold them in place. I usually try to hold at least the middle two. If the outer ones fall it is fairly east to tell which on it cam from, but if they all fall good luck. My first HG job I dropped em all, mixed em up, and said prayer while I randomly reasembled. Ran fine, no trouble for 40,000 miles.(sold it)