Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Yes, You´re Right! I was thinkin´ too in the Tyre Wear done by No Differential Action... and Another things like the Control to make Both Motors to Spin in the Same Rpm´s at the Same Time, etc. But I didn´t wanted to Write a "Never Endin´ Post" Everythin´ can be Solved, I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveeen Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 "The point is to drive-by the gas station & and be able to go "nah nah!"" Ok, so driving by the gas station, gas @ $2.50/gallon (though you should be trying $4.00/gallon like it is where I live) and feeling good about what? Investing $2500 in a $500 car? Being "green"? (do we forget where electricity comes from?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted March 4, 2007 Author Share Posted March 4, 2007 Ok, so driving by the gas station, gas @ $2.50/gallon (though you should be trying $4.00/gallon like it is where I live) and feeling good about what? Investing $2500 in a $500 car? Being "green"? (do we forget where electricity comes from?) No, I hear ya. And it's not a $500 car, it's a $600 car, hehe. The point is to make a statement. And $2500 is worth it to me to make that statement. But I'm not sure $5000 is worth it ... and I might be closer to than than I want to be. We'll see. I'm actually starting with a motorcycle, to get me the basic skills without as much cost of the batteries, etc. Start small, I say. For me, the point is to learn it. The point is to prove that it's possible. The point is to show people that it's not just for greenie-open-toed-shoes-wearin' tofu-stuffin' vegans. And yes, at the moment, grid power is about 95% natural gas. But that won't always be the case. And gas will be $6 a gallon in 36 months - when it's available, mark my words. Without getting into a political discussion - yes, I totally realize it's not a great investment on the quantifiable cost-benefit-analysis point of view. Some things are difficult to quantify. I have spent ... let's see ... more than $12k over the past 4 years on a Vmax that I have put only 2,000 miles on... that's almost $6 a mile. Worth it? No way! But then again ... oh HELL yeah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 No, I hear ya. And it's not a $500 car, it's a $600 car, Here's my thought on cost of cars: Buy new - You take a huge hit in value in 2 years. Buy 2 year old - Not bad, if you keep it for 10 years or more. Buy a $600 no rust EA82 spend a few G's on it. Still cheaper than 2nd choice. Even with spending some $ on repairing things the previous owner let go. Heck, you could replace the entire driveline and still be ahead. Resale value doesn't matter if you drive it into the ground. I have never sold a Subaru. And if you did screw something up while modifing, it's not like you killed a $15,000 car. The point is to show people that it's not just for greenie-open-toed-shoes-wearin' tofu-stuffin' vegans. And yes, at the moment, grid power is about 95% natural gas. read this: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.03/drag.html Look here: http://www.nedra.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 With two AC motors on two wheels, i am not sure, but you may loose differential action. I was testing a pair of DC motors one day. For no particular reason, I wired them in series. (Obviously, the input voltage for full output is now doubled) They acted very much like a differential. Put a little more load on one, the other speeds up. Lock one, the other goes twice as fast. Based on tourque curves, you can use electric motors with fixed gearing, but the takeoff acceleration is slow, giving electrics the bad rap. It also takes *huge* amounts of power to make the huge low speed tourque. The weight of the transmission is fairly trivial compared to weight of the batteries. Something like 20 x 60lbs - 1200Lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveeen Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 "at the moment, grid power is about 95% natural gas" I beg to differ, though SOME electricity comes from natural gas, and of course SOME comes from water power (we must not forget Niagara Falls), I *think* you will find when you consider the other sources of electric: coal, oil (specifically "bunker C") and nuclear, going "electric" isn't really as "green" as we have been told it is. http://www.cec.org/news/details/index.cfm?varlan=english&ID=2611 Report For Michigan, 2003 latest availaible, Electric utilities: http://www.takingstockquery.org/index.php?varlan=english&ascdesc=d&orderedby=default&output=results&skip_to_rec=0&report_type=state&nresults=10&annee03=1&geographic=MI&chemical=All&newoldb=49&sumtotrelon=1&sumtotair=1&sumtotwat=1&sumtotuij=1&sumtotland=1&sumtotreltsf=1&x=78&y=10 I don't know about where you live, but a few years ago there was a big alternate fuels push just north of you. Many vehicles were converted to run propane/natural gas, now that the funding for this push has ended, the junkyards north of you are full of this conversion stuff, that can be had for peanuts. Personally I am not keen on natural gas (low BTU), but propane, and a propane conversion could be reasonable. BUT you have to consider the cost of the propane (you get about 80% the power of a litre gasoline out of a litre of propane, in their liquid states). The big bonus of propane as a fuel is virtually no oil contamination. Maybe a few BBQ tanks in the back of your wagon might be in your future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted March 5, 2007 Author Share Posted March 5, 2007 "at the moment, grid power is about 95% natural gas" I beg to differ, though SOME electricity comes from natural gas, and of course SOME comes from water power (we must not forget Niagara Falls), I *think* you will find when you consider the other sources of electric: coal, oil (specifically "bunker C") and nuclear, going "electric" isn't really as "green" as we have been told it is. http://www.cec.org/news/details/index.cfm?varlan=english&ID=2611 Report For Michigan, 2003 latest availaible, Electric utilities: http://www.takingstockquery.org/index.php?varlan=english&ascdesc=d&orderedby=default&output=results&skip_to_rec=0&report_type=state&nresults=10&annee03=1&geographic=MI&chemical=All&newoldb=49&sumtotrelon=1&sumtotair=1&sumtotwat=1&sumtotuij=1&sumtotland=1&sumtotreltsf=1&x=78&y=10 I don't know about where you live, but a few years ago there was a big alternate fuels push just north of you. Many vehicles were converted to run propane/natural gas, now that the funding for this push has ended, the junkyards north of you are full of this conversion stuff, that can be had for peanuts. Personally I am not keen on natural gas (low BTU), but propane, and a propane conversion could be reasonable. BUT you have to consider the cost of the propane (you get about 80% the power of a litre gasoline out of a litre of propane, in their liquid states). The big bonus of propane as a fuel is virtually no oil contamination. Maybe a few BBQ tanks in the back of your wagon might be in your future? I might have my facts wrong. But honestly, it doesn't matter to me, really - I don't view natural gas to be any better than coal or nuclear or anything else - it's not a renewable resource, period. Over the next 10-20 years, if we are to survive at all, the economics of using Solar, Wind, Geothermal, etc. will become more and more feasible. At one point, this nation was nothing but wind-power and solar-thermal. The cheap cost of oil & coal are what drove them to the wayside. Now that we've used all the cheaply attainable oil, the cost will continue to increase with each barrel we pump. This will begin the shift to renewables, and the more demand, the more the costs will go down because R&D money will finally be proportionately put into it, and the economies of scale will kick-in geometrically. I believe Iceland is very nearly 100% independant from anything but renewables for it's power. Their next phase is absorbing the auto-industry - that's a big step, but it's feasible. To me, it's about stepping-up. I don't live month-to-month. Never have. So the fact that it isn't a cost-effective way to move me & my tools around doesn't bother me. It's more about saying "Yeah, I'm willing to take a financial hit now to make a statement about the future for all of us." Someone has to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhise Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Yeah, I know. It'll boil-down to a cost thing at some point, I'm sure. I'm thinking it'll trickle-charge at best - and that might not be worth it from a financial standpoint. But neither will the conversion itself. The point is to drive-by the gas station & and be able to go "nah nah!" Where in Michigan are ya? I put a panel on my truck camper (about 2' x 3') that kicks out about 7 amps in full sunlight. Cloudy days, maybe half that. It works good though for my lights, radio and 12v cooler. I have it hooked up to a couple of 6 volt gel cell batteries that can hold 200+ amp hours. Those batteries are nice because they don't vent hydrogen, so I could keep them in a convenient spot without blowing the thing up! -Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveeen Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 Over the next 10-20 years, if we are to survive at all, the economics of using Solar, Wind, Geothermal, etc. will become more and more feasible. At one point, this nation was nothing but wind-power and solar-thermal. The cheap cost of oil & coal are what drove them to the wayside. Now that we've used all the cheaply attainable oil, the cost will continue to increase with each barrel we pump. This will begin the shift to renewables, and the more demand, the more the costs will go down because R&D money will finally be proportionately put into it, and the economies of scale will kick-in geometrically. To me, it's about stepping-up. I don't live month-to-month. Never have. So the fact that it isn't a cost-effective way to move me & my tools around doesn't bother me. It's more about saying "Yeah, I'm willing to take a financial hit now to make a statement about the future for all of us." Someone has to. I am in FULL agreement, but first *think* it best to try and figure out who is telling us lies, and who is telling us the truth. On the surface electric seems acceptable, we are being told it is acceptable, but digging a bit below the surface, it is clearly a lie, and nothing more than this year's flavour of political lip service to the enviormentalists. I don't know about you, but my Loyale gives me 43mpg (Imperial), and compared to a SUV with one passenger, or a non-working pick-up truck (both giving around 12mpg at best), I do not feel quite so bad. At this time, because nobody is really offering anything truly "green", I am only prepared to do with the least, energy wise, that is economically feasable. You seem prepared to make more of a energy commitment than I am, and I applaud you for this, but I urge you to make your commitment a wise one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 5, 2007 Share Posted March 5, 2007 I believe Iceland is very nearly 100% independant from anything but renewables for it's power. Their next phase is absorbing the auto-industry - that's a big step, but it's feasible. . Iceland is unique in its location, low population, and natural resources. They will become the first (and only) Hydrogen econmy in the world. This is due to all the geothermal resources available. As far as green fuel goes, It is far more cleaner and cheaper to mass manufacture energy (with todays technology) then to have each house with its own Gen set. ELectricity is about as green as you get due to the way its produced at one source with one set of emission controls. Best is hydroelectric (but that leaves enviormental scars and is ageing). Next is Natural gas, which just comes out of the ground, requires very little to no porcessing and is delivered by pipeline. After that you have the Dino fuels, which easily comes out of the ground, requires little energy to process, and can be delivered by pipeline (the trucks at the end make it dirty). After that you have coal (plentiful but has many issues). Then you have the energy sources where you have to put energy in to get energy out, gassified coal, alchol, and hydrogen ( I worked in that industry). I left out nuclear as its an animal all on its own. Personally i would love an electric car around town, and am considering it. Do whatever makes you feel good. Anything that uses less foreign fule is a good thing. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 I was thinking... I was looking at electric kits, and it dawned on me. A justy with a cvt transmission. The electric motor would get around the electric clutch issues (dont need it). The cvt is like other cars they are using (wonder how it can be calibrated). If the can convert geo metros to run electric, why not a Justy? nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted March 6, 2007 Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 I am in FULL agreement, but first *think* it best to try and figure out who is telling us lies, and who is telling us the truth. On the surface electric seems acceptable, we are being told it is acceptable, but digging a bit below the surface, it is clearly a lie, and nothing more than this year's flavour of political lip service to the enviormentalists. I don't know about you, but my Loyale gives me 43mpg (Imperial), and compared to a SUV with one passenger, or a non-working pick-up truck (both giving around 12mpg at best), I do not feel quite so bad. At this time, because nobody is really offering anything truly "green", I am only prepared to do with the least, energy wise, that is economically feasable. You seem prepared to make more of a energy commitment than I am, and I applaud you for this, but I urge you to make your commitment a wise one. Okay, then. Tell me: what is it, exactly, I should be doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 why not a diesel generator powering the motors at the wheels.It still would be heavy as sin.but would help in the mpg department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 why not a diesel generator powering the motors at the wheels.It still would be heavy as sin.but would help in the mpg department. Actually thats very inneffecient. What would work is a small generator keeping a battery pack charged and the batteries driving the motor. Butr even that would would outpace each other on a long drive. i like the 45 mile range for around town, that would last me a week. Now if the kits werent so expensive. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveeen Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Okay, then. Tell me: what is it, exactly, I should be doing? Determine your transportation needs. I know this is a Subaru forum, but if your needs are for a small effecient car, a Justy, or VW Diesel might be a better starting point. Determine your reliance on your automobile. Do you have an alternate means of transportation? Is your car necessary? (I will assure you reliability suffers as you modify a vehicle) Determine your skill level. Realistically appraise your availaible skill level and facilities to carry out a major automotive project. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ok, let's hold it right here. If you are looking for primary transportation with limited transportation alternatives the wise choice would be to go out and buy the most fuel effecient vehicle that fits your transportation needs and drive it. Modified vehicles, or in this case, self built energy effecient vehicles are traditionally unreliable. Check the web sites, these guys have multiple vehicles availaible to them for "emergency" use. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 Ok, let's hold it right here. If you are looking for primary transportation with limited transportation alternatives the wise choice would be to go out and buy the most fuel effecient vehicle that fits your transportation needs and drive it. Modified vehicles, or in this case, self built energy effecient vehicles are traditionally unreliable. Check the web sites, these guys have multiple vehicles availaible to them for "emergency" use. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thats what i was thinking, a second car for short trips and good weather. Winter i want HEAT! Summer i can deal with convertable or something akin to it. 80% of my driving is in the less then 20 mile range. Sadly i cant walk a miule yet, and i cant drive a stick. Now for you it may be a differnt story. But study your needs over a month. Look at the weather you have and what scarifices your willing to make. Also there is said sometrhing to be said for having a fuel powered vehical god forbid there is a power problem or you have to get out of dodge fast (like us with hurricanes). nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 Determine your transportation needs. Okay. They are well-determined. Thank you. I know this is a Subaru forum, but if your needs are for a small effecient car, a Justy, or VW Diesel might be a better starting point. Thanks. But I'll keep the Booperoo. The wagon is a smart move on my part, considering I went from a E350 Cargo Van with the 138" wheelbase to this little airplane-motor-havin' dorkmobile. A little Rabbit just won't cut it. Besides. I'd be pulling the deisel out of the Rabbit. If I want a Rabbit, I'll borrow one of my brother's. He smells like french fries when he drives-by. Determine your reliance on your automobile. I rely on my automobiles for my living. I could not use public transportation, carpooling, ride-share, taxi, helicoptor or hovercraft. I need to haul tools, materials, appliances, and project junk on a daily basis. I go to multiple different locations weekly. No day is ever the same. I travel from 15 - 45 miles per day in my vehicle. Do you have an alternate means of transportation? Is your car necessary? (I will assure you reliability suffers as you modify a vehicle) I think i already answered this. Determine your skill level. My skill level is irrelevant. I will adjust my skills to meet the needs of the project. If that fails, I will recruit the help necessary to both a) do the work, and teach me the skills i will need to maintain the mods. That said, I have torn down motorcycles to the ground and rebuilt them. I have experience in engines, transmissions, hydraulics, welding, HVAC, plumbing, and I can even change a lightbulb. I can carry my own, and I know enough to recognize that which I cannot tackle on my own. Realistically appraise your availaible skill level and facilities to carry out a major automotive project. Ditto ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ok, let's hold it right here. If you are looking for primary transportation with limited transportation alternatives the wise choice would be to go out and buy the most fuel effecient vehicle that fits your transportation needs and drive it. Modified vehicles, or in this case, self built energy effecient vehicles are traditionally unreliable. Check the web sites, these guys have multiple vehicles availaible to them for "emergency" use.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I do have multiple vehicles. I have 2 Vans, 2 Trucks, 3 cars, 4 motorcycles, an Insley 560, an Insley 1000, a Unimog, and 2 CityCars. Oh yeah - and a bicycle. Now ... If I'm reading you correctly, you seem to think that my motivation in converting my 1990 Subaru 2WD Loyale Wagon to an electric vehicle is either naive or not cost effective. Either that, or there is something that I am still missing? So I ask again: what, exactly, do you think I should I do? And perhaps it should be repeated again, even though I think I have made my outcome(s) quite clear: My outcome is twofold: a) to prove and show and advertise to the general populus that it is possible, and that it's possible by someone like me, who doesn't eat Tofu or wear open-toed Birkenstocks; to increase the awareness of the potential and utility of an electric vehicle, and to c) gain real-time first-hand experience so that i can take what I learn and eventually convert my Unimog into a reliable viable delivery vehicle that will REALLY turn heads. I fully realize that today, March 7th, 2007, that for most people, running an electric vehicle is merely transfering the fossil fuel reliance one segment offset. But you must realize that this will not always be the case, and I am more than willing to pay a premium, in many forms, be they financial, social, or poltical until that time. Cost effective or not. The purpose is to prove a point. Evidently, that point is being missed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 For the battery placement, you can use the space the gas tank takes up, and the smugglers hatch in the back. You could put a few in the back seat floor pans and box them off. You could compensate for the extra weight by putting accord spings in the back. It's a cool project. If you live in a windy spot, you could put up a self built windmill to do some charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted March 7, 2007 Author Share Posted March 7, 2007 Yep - that's what I was thinking. I was originally thinking about 12Vs & kinda worried that they'd be too tall for that, but I'm looking into 6V and 8Vs now - kinda making the assumption that they'll be smaller in dimension (even tho I'll need more of them). I'm thinking about the weight distribution about that, tho. I'm sure I'll have to beef-up the rear a bit to handle that. I imaine that I'll have to get out the scales & start establishing weights of the individual components as I pull them out to try & keep the balance as correct as possible. Does anyone know the F/R weight distribution on a dry (or wet?) one of these? I remember when I pulled everything this January for my re-seal, the motor was surpridingly light, as was the tranny - I could easily pick up the tranny & move it around - not something I'm used to (used to the Ford C-6). This is both good and bad, I suppose. Light is nice, but heavy components would offset more of what I'm bringing-in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thealleyboy Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Excellent thread. Some outstanding ideas that I hope are pursued further, and shared on this Board. As far as the sidebars regarding the environment, economics, etc etc etc... As a country, we are really hurting right now due to the closed-mindedness of politicians and big business for the past 30 years or more. We have had the fossil fuel culture rammed down our throats, and other technologies have never been given a fair shot. As a consequence, everytime some shiek farts in Saudi Arabia or Iran, prices (not supply) go all over the place. If you want to take your cues from the Govt and Wall St, you deserve what you get. I, for one, am glad to see a resurgence in innovative ideas. Nothing is "crazy" anymore, and everything is on the table when it comes to energy alternatives these days. Also, there is value in learning, for the sake of learning. I commend those people that are willing try something that no one has ever done. This body of knowledge will grow, and as is always the case, someone will eventually get it right. There have been plenty of big innovations that were dreamed up in someone's barn or garage. Oh, BTW...Failure isn't a bad thing if you learn something from it. Edison, the Wright Brothers and Henry Ford had plenty of failures.... good luck, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 7, 2007 Share Posted March 7, 2007 Oh, BTW...Failure isn't a bad thing if you learn something from it. Edison, the Wright Brothers and Henry Ford had plenty of failures.... good luck, John And it gives the local fire department lots of practice nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 And it gives the local fire department lots of practice nipper I know what you mean. Once I had one of my Bosch Cordless drill batteries short-out on me, and it got so hot it melted the entire bettery housing & almost set my holster on fire before I was able to get the thing away from me. I still have a pretty big scar on my thumb from getting the thing off. And that was only 24 volts ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberoo Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 the smugglers hatch in the back.. where is that?Is it one of the side pockets or the box in the floor?Or is there more compartments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davalos Posted March 8, 2007 Author Share Posted March 8, 2007 where is that?Is it one of the side pockets or the box in the floor?Or is there more compartments? In the wagon, I assume it's the floor-panel covered in carpet. Not deep enough for tall batteries, but who knows how much space will be in there with no tank ... I don't see getting batteries of much any size in the side cubbies without serious destruction of the plastic... I'm assuming many have stripped-out the backs of their wagons, for numerous reasons. Any pics out there? I would imagine there's a lot more space to work with than what can be seen on a fully-trimmed Loyale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del Posted March 8, 2007 Share Posted March 8, 2007 Cool thread. In high school I drove my dads subaru van (early 80's vintage) that had been converted to electric. It had 17 deep cycle 6 volt batteries (dad said 68# each) for propulsion, and one 12 volt for lights ect. Range 80 miles at 35mph, top speed 75. Originally it had a 3cylinder air cooled engine. The original 4speed and clutch were retained (clutch only used for shifting). It had a gas heater (one and a half gallon fuel tank) that i wonder if it can be run on that corn alcohol (e-85 i believe)? This type of heater is used on air cooled vw's for artic conditions (for safety sake make sure it is operational before using). One thought on the power brakes is for street rods with wild cams they make a 12 volt booster that only works when the brakes are used. I hope some of this info is helpful for your car project. del ps if you use a gas heater make sure the seals have not dried out and leak (hint replace them), the result can not be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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