Kenshiro Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 Hi there. First i would like to say that i`m from Sweden so my writing isn`t always that good.. I`m going to build a serious sand offroader to use in desert rallies. Some help on what to start to build from.. what car of these ones has the best\strongest 4wd system...? Legacy gen 1 leone brat Great forum by the way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 18, 2007 Share Posted March 18, 2007 the legacies don't have true 4WD, and the lo range (if you have them in sweden) isn't very low. the brat 4-speeds also aren't anything to write home again. but the leone (EA82) dual range 5-speed is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenshiro Posted March 18, 2007 Author Share Posted March 18, 2007 thanx.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
970subaru Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 are you talking like dunes, a paris-dakar type car, or what? I didnt know there were deserts in sweden:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I suggest reading this post, ALL the way through. It is great. http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4919 There really hasn't been any proof that I know of saying the Brat's 4 sp is worse then the Leones 5sp. Although the 4sp has a lesser low range (not by much) and seems to always develop a problem with holding in reverse. Either way I would recommend using the 5sp purely just for the extra gear. Also I would recommend using a EA81 body style because the weight is a fair bit less. EA81 body style is like Brat's 81 to 84 wagons and sedans and hatchbacks. If you can get a hatch, that would be the best. You will want a EJ engine I reckon and most likely a turbo one at that. No of cause you may run the risk of blowing up the gearbox with a turbo EJ, so I'd watch out. The EJ non dual range boxes are pretty good in sand even though they are AWD not 4WD. The thing is, if you have all four wheels on the ground, they will all drive and the VLSD center should hold up great. The EJ dual range boxes are basicly just the Leone EA82 5 sp with a center diff instead of the transfer case (4WD selector gears.) So obviously you need to be aware that you will break stuff and you need spares. And you will need to do a lot of building up to have a good rig for rally. So fitting a EJ and a 5sp into a Brat or something like that shouldn't be too serious of a mod for a serious rally car. Other things you need to remember is rules for such advents. But I am sure you have already looked into that. Good luck, and most important have fun! Oh, and I'll do this so all the others don't need too.. You must post pics of the build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott in Bellingham Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I would use a EJ engine hooked to a Dual Range Transaxle , legacy running gear is strongest and good brakes with larger tires, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenshiro Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hi again.. Thanks for all the help, you are gonna get some more questions. (thats a promise ) The car i`m planning to build is for the dakar rally.. Yes i`m a bit crazy ha ha.. So that`s why i wanna be sure that i`m starting to build from the right model from the start.. I really like the look of the brat, but is the 4wd system tuff enough for a 9000 km rally, can you buy new gearboxes and transfercase to the brat. my goal with the rally isn`t to win ( of course ) just to finnish, so i wont beat the car to it`s limits.. suspension isn`t a problem i`m planning to use real offroad stuff: fox or öhlins.. I can`t use a turbo on it, against the regulations. ..And a smaller engine means i can have it in another weight class. up to 2000 cc engine = 1350kg minimum weight.. As soon as i get satrted on my car i will post some pics.. I`m also planning for a homepage.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenshiro Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 Hi again.. Thanks for all the help, you are gonna get some more questions. (thats a promise ) The car i`m planning to build is for the dakar rally.. Yes i`m a bit crazy ha ha.. So that`s why i wanna be sure that i`m starting to build from the right model from the start.. I really like the look of the brat, but is the 4wd system tuff enough for a 9000 km rally, can you buy new gearboxes and transfercase to the brat. my goal with the rally isn`t to win ( of course ) just to finnish, so i wont beat the car to it`s limits.. suspension isn`t a problem, i`m planning to use real offroad stuff: fox or öhlins.. as soon as i decide and buy something to start building from i`ll post some pics.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 WELL.....that's not offroad like we're used to. you won't be using a low range at all. definitely a legacy. better motor, stronger drivetrain, more aftermarket support (You'll be VERY hard pressed to find upgraded suspension for the older subarus). or better yet, an early impreza, same motor (available, make sure you get the 2.2l, not the 1.8), same drivetrain, lighter body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
970subaru Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 what kind of budget do you have for the car? front strut suspension might not cut it, and youre going to require a pretty extensive cage. I'd say start with the lightest subaru you can get your hands on in decent shape, I'd imagine that ea81's are a damn rare car there so perhaps some sort of mid 90's impreza or 80's leone. start cutting out as much unnecessary metal from doors, trunk, hood, etc. cage the crap out of it,cut off the front clip and build a double wishbone setup that will cycle around 14" travel and allow for a really tough skidplate of at least .25" thick aluminum to protect the radiator, engine, trans and perhaps all the way back to the rear driveline. engine: you are most likely going to want to run either an ej20(I think they came NA in europe) to meet your CC requirements or failing that, an ej22 2.2L or ej25 2.5L depending on what the next class up is. for a transmission, I'd say go for a dual range out of a legacy GX then put 4.44:1 diffs in it from a forester or legacy outback. sorry, you folks across the water got some different parts from us that I'm not super familiar with. rear suspension you might want to think about taking the whole rear setup from a jaguar XJ as that will allow you locker options with the D44 diff that subarus dont have(which you will NEED when you hit sand), its IRS, easily rebuilt to many different track widths and wheel bolt patterns, and be damn near unbreakable in a 1350kg car with an NA 4 banger. but you will probably need to run 4.11 gears as that is one of the highest ratios you can get from both the D44 diff and subaru EJ transmission front diffs. at a minimum you are going to need a really good cage, really good skidplate, beef up everything suspension/steering wise, lots of spares, and lots of stamina. bench racing is fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Ok, so you'd want the biggest EJ that fits in the class. So a 2L non turbo (EJ20) sounds about right. I'd say you'd want a lift kit if the rules permit. This will give you extra room for some huge tires. Remember, when adding to the OD you also are adding to the foot print of the tire. And when in dunes, you want this! Something like a 29" or even 31" tire with 10.5" wide or more is what I reckon you should roll on. I like the idea of the early imp, they would/should be lighter then the Legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregvdd Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The car i`m planning to build is for the dakar rally.. Yes i`m a bit crazy ha ha.. . Waooow for the Dakar !!! :eek: Not sure many north american know this rally, so have a look here : http://www.dakar.com Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjaben43 Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 there is a reason the wrc ans swrt use the impreza... for 9000km, id go with whatever has the most upgrades availabl anyways. and good luck, i wish i was there to help!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[HTi]Dain Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 uugghhmm-- I'd have to disagree with all these fine folks;) . I would for sure go with the EA81 (1.8L) Brat for the Dakar. It has just been my experences that they are the most reliable over EA82(for sure) and probably most EJ serie motors. the motors are gear-driven, which makes them practically bullet proof. the Brat is very light weight. It'd be easy to put in a roll bar, and whatnot. the 4 speed, dual-range transmission has nice low gearing, and will easily push high RPMs. and I KNOW the Brat goes GREAT in the sand -- STOCK. But it all sounds like really great advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenshiro Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hmm, If we compare pretend that the cars are all new in the transmiss do you think a 1.8 litre leone on the lo gear could run 30" wheels,? I tried my -89 leone turbo (13" wheels) in some snow yesterday and i didn`t think that the lo gear was so big differance compared to the high.. Is there any gearsets to buy to get a lower gear ratio for use with bigger wheels.? Let`s say i start with a brat. Is there any adaptor plates to fit a legacy engine to the gearbox? Or is it better to use the complete drivetrain from the legacy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have to disagree with Dain. Although the Brat stock will last 9000km of it's "hard" driving I just don't think it would make it with the mods you need to to get to Dakar. I was thinking and I thought if you had enough floatation you wouldn't need ground clearence as much. But the question goes back to the rules again. I reckon fitting some of those 27x11.5R14 ATV tires to some modified 14" rims either they be Legacy or the old 4 stud (convtered to 6 stud.) I think you would get quite a bit further. Plus you won't totally screw up your gearing. If you put 30"s on even the Brat in low range I doubt you'd get through those dunes. You would need a EJ20t, but then you have the problem of it shreading the gearbox. I really think your best bet is to keep between 27" and 29" OD tires with a low range box. Either that be a Legacy low range box, which you might have to import from Australia or NZ, or a EA82 low range box. Then you have to remember two things about these boxes. The EA82 non turbo is 4WD, so it is easier to break the 4WD selecting gears. The Legacy box is AWD. This has a limited slip diff in the middle so it will slip a bit, but it's a fair bit tougher driving 4 wheels because of it. The standard low gear in the Legacy and EA82 turbo boxes are 1.19 to 1 ratio. So you will want to mod in a EA82 non-turbo low gear so you get the 1.59 to 1 ratio. I'm guessing your EA82t has the standard 1.19, I think that's why you didn't feel a big difference. You can see how to mod the low range gear in the retro fitting forum in my post about my Brumby Conversion. Oh, and things not to get.. A EA82 turbo, infact any EA82 (I just don't think they have enough reliability for the toughest auto race on the this planet.) A EJ25 non-turbo (I am pretty sure a lot of these had major head gasket issues.) There are plenty more, but for now you get the idea. I am toren between the EJ body platform and the EA body. In once sence the EA is lighter, but the suspension setup is much weaker. I guess it comes down to how much modding you want/can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
970subaru Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 I'm 97% sure the D/R EJ trans was available in europe too. there's also the option of running an EJ automatic aka 4eat. they are quite strong and with a 4.44 geared 4eat with switched duty solenoid C for true 4x4 would be pretty good for slow stuff, and be a good bit smoother to drive over the rough stuff not to mention easier on the other parts of the drivetrain. however it would sap some power and be at risk of overheating unless you added a large cooler and it will be about 100-120lbs heavier than the manual(2 of us struggled to lift the 4eat while I was able to carry the 5mt by myself at stomach height with effort). not having total control over the shifting would be a pain, but there has GOT to be a way to set it up to do that since the shifts are controlled by some sort of electrical impulse. at least it can be locked in first and also made to not shift up from second or third, only down. phizinza, is it possible to put the 1.59 lowrange gearset in the legacy DR gearbox? solutions for the ej25: add dowels in the water jacket to make a semi closed deck, and run MLS headgaskets with new head bolts. that engine can make a good 130whp with some mild hop ups on the stock ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenshiro Posted March 22, 2007 Author Share Posted March 22, 2007 Hi again and thanks for all the help.. Feels like the legacy is the way to go, is there any difference on the -90 up to -94 models, do they all have hi and low selection.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Feels like the legacy is the way to go, is there any difference on the -90 up to -94 models, do they all have hi and low selection.. Keep in mind this varies from country to country. Here in Australia the only models to come with the D/R from 89 to 94 were the Liberty GX (liberty is basicly the same car as the legacy.) But I'm not sure if all the GX's had the D/R. From what I have experienced here, no one knows much about the EJ D/R's as most users are from the US and they never got the EJ D/R box. Best way to check is either by looking under the hood at the gearbox, there is a little lever which is cable operated right next to the clutch lever. Or by looking in the car there will be a secondary gear lever which is connected to the lever on the box. And just so you don't get confused at all. The Auto's don't come in D/R. But the torque converter can do a good enough job. Personally, I would never put a Auto in a car, I would only ever take them out. But that's my opinion, and I'm anti-auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenshiro Posted March 24, 2007 Author Share Posted March 24, 2007 HI. I don`t like autotransmissions either.. can`t decide what to start building on.. a brat with complete driveline from a impreza or legacy with hi\low gearbox or a legacy or impreza to start from.. Keep in mind this varies from country to country. Here in Australia the only models to come with the D/R from 89 to 94 were the Liberty GX (liberty is basicly the same car as the legacy.) But I'm not sure if all the GX's had the D/R. From what I have experienced here, no one knows much about the EJ D/R's as most users are from the US and they never got the EJ D/R box. Best way to check is either by looking under the hood at the gearbox, there is a little lever which is cable operated right next to the clutch lever. Or by looking in the car there will be a secondary gear lever which is connected to the lever on the box. And just so you don't get confused at all. The Auto's don't come in D/R. But the torque converter can do a good enough job. Personally, I would never put a Auto in a car, I would only ever take them out. But that's my opinion, and I'm anti-auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 HI. I don`t like autotransmissions either.. can`t decide what to start building on.. a brat with complete driveline from a impreza or legacy with hi\low gearbox or a legacy or impreza to start from.. why do you want a dual range tranny? if you're running an EJ motor, you'll have plenty of torque to turn bigger tires for dakar. also, keep in mind the rear suspension of a brat has zero aftermarket support. do some looking around for the kind of products you'll be using. I'd use an early impreza. light, cheap, and infinitely upgradeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 I'd probably go for the heavier Legacy or Imp. They have better after market suspension support and better geometry. Plus they start as a 2L EJ or 2.2L EJ.. I'm starting to think go with the imp, this will keep you in the 2L class and it's a little lighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenshiro Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 So you guys really think i can use stock transmission and put on say 30 inch wheels.? And use a non turbo install. thats why i thought it would be good to at least have the option to to put in the low gear for say climbing mountain roads rocks or sand dunes, and still have hi gear for speed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numbchux Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 So you guys really think i can use stock transmission and put on say 30 inch wheels.? And use a non turbo install. thats why i thought it would be good to at least have the option to to put in the low gear for say climbing mountain roads rocks or sand dunes, and still have hi gear for speed.. oh yea, imo the newer cars have almost as much climbing ability because of the added torque. I think my EA82 wagon would always run out of steam on long climbs, even in low range, the EJ22 just keeps pulling! the only problem you may run into, is if you're trying to stuff more than about 29" tires under an EJ car, is the clearance at the lower spring perch. unless you go with full coilovers....but the stock Outback/Forester (tallest you can get stock) struts only allow limited clearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phizinza Posted March 26, 2007 Share Posted March 26, 2007 basically the hardest part of this race is the desert right? So I reckon you will want to get some custom deep dish rims and fit 12.5 to 15.5 inch tires (even if it does eat wheel bearings.) Wide tires on sand make ALL the difference. Maximum width tire you want to go on a 7" wide rim is 10.5" so a 8.5 to 9.5 inch rim would be good I reckon. You can widen steel rims, I've seem people do it on budget race cars before. But if you can afford pro custom wheels that would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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