NOT Ignition questions, then... but why isnt it working right?

[daeron]

Okay, for starters,

is a brief video of my car running somewhat poorly. (it gets much worse; apparently just not in front of the camera)

 

I am stumped; I haven't managed to get a fuel pressure gauge on it yet because I do not have one, but I am beginning to move away from the idea of a fuel problem. CTS, TPS, MAF, and IAC have all been tested.. my alphabet is fine.

 

I am beginning to think that it may be...

 

.. a high voltage leak in my ignition system (wires, coil)

 

.. an intermittent bad connection to the coil

 

.. a bad coil

 

.. dirty optical sensor wheel in the disty

 

.. incorrect base timing.

 

The first three, I believe i can proceed testing on my own, but my soobie-sense is telling me i probably won't find a problem there.

 

Now, regarding ignition advance.. I FINALLY read the relevant chapters in an auto shop textbook I have, and actually understand how ignition systems work soup to nuts now. However, I am still a complete novice when it comes to ignition tuning/diagnosis. A board member (subaru_mechanic) told me that he thought I needed to advance my ignition more; but I set it with a light, per FSM procedure. I am a little confused, since the book seems to say to always set idle speed before checking timing, and to always set base timing before changing idle speed... chicken and the egg, anyone?

 

Anyhow, I set it to 20* with the connectors plugged and all, but maybe I need a little more?? the timing light isnt incredibly easy to access (drive to uncles, wake him up, find it, etc) so I have been hesitant to fiddle with it since I DO know it is spot on right now.

 

Regarding the optical wheel, how do I proceed in checking that?? where IS the optical wheel, inside the disty somewhere?? if thats the case, then obviously I play with timing settings before I even get into checking that..

 

My fuel mileage has gotten HORRIBLE, and sometimes it takes me moving the gas pedal back and forth before it finally finds itself and gets up and goes. I have gone through a bad TPS before; it is NOT behaving like that. only RELATIVE throttle position changes make a difference; ABSOLUTE throttle position has no bearing on anything. (ie it is NOT just "bad" in one spot or range, nor is it consistently "bad" in any spot or range)

 

Help!!!! I am utterly clueless, at my wit's end!

[Gloyale]

Have you tried a new ECU? I've read about a few recently here that were bad. Crazy idle and running problems, then new ECU and it's fine. Whos' thread was that?

[mikeshoup]

As long as the base timing is close to 20 degrees, it shouldn't cause you that bad of running condition.

 

The optical wheel and sensor is inside the distributor. Its underneath the dust cap right at the top of it. You'll see a wheel with 180 notches in it and a little sensor. I do not see how this could be serviceable.

 

It really sounds like one of your ignition tune up items is in poor condition.

[daeron]

Have you tried a new ECU? I've read about a few recently here that were bad. Crazy idle and running problems, then new ECU and it's fine. Whos' thread was that?

 

SHUT UP!!!

 

I am aware of this possibility, but am considering it remote until I have ruled out the entire ignition system. "Swapping ECUs" is NOT on my list of "things that are easy to do without income." If I lived in Soobieland, Washington or Loyalesville, Oregon I might have a buddy with a spare I could try.. but alas, I live in Southernmost, Florida, miles away from any other STATE. The nearest board member is on the west coast of florida to the best of my knowledge.

 

I did not think that a few degrees of timing change would make such a big difference, myself. thanks mike.

 

From what I have gathered, it is not so much "servicing" the optical wheel in the disty; more like, making sure it is clean and free of debris/gunk that might be interfering with the optical signal. Basically all I want to do in that regard would be to eyeball the thing, and make sure it isnt crudded up, maybe hit it with some carb cleaner or QD Electronics cleaner, etc.

 

Time to break out the multimeter and the FSM, I guess.

[daeron]

YA-HARRY-HOY!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Ignition coil primary circuit resistance is reading at 2.1-1.7 ohms!! FSM states 0.84-1.04 as acceptable range!!

 

also, im getting about 10 ohms resistance between the (-) terminal on the coil and the battery...

 

Does this mean I need a new coil!????? If so, would this cause the stumbling problem I have been having??????

 

I think I may have founded it, at LAST!! I *probably* could have fixed this and postponed my headgasket job to a point and time when I had $$$ to do that RIGHT (oil pump seals, oil seals, etc)

 

PLEASE any feedback?? I have literally zero $$ right now so if I get get a JY replacement thats gonna be on a borrowed dime, and i do NOT want to do that if this is not likely my problem..

 

since I am posting, I may as well ask.. i do NOT need to disconnect the battery to properly read the resistance in the primary circuit, do I?? vehicle was off and I wasnt showing any voltage at the coil, but I figured I would ask

[Frank B]

Yes, follow the FSM at all costs.

Why did you test between the coil and the battery??

Did you check the coil with it disconnected?

When was the last time new plug wires, plugs, oxygen sensor and fuel filter was replaced? Add a few ground wires to the engine too. One from block to body, one from intake manifold to body, and one from exhaust(near O2) to body. Is the firing order correct? Check the timing with the green connectors connected like the FSM states. Clean the MAF(when cold) with electrical contact cleaner. Have you checked the fault codes" What did you get? I've had a bad TPS, MAF, CTS, distributor pickup(optical whatever), O2, etc and always had a fault code.

Oh, and welcome to Subaru FI .

[daeron]

Yes, follow the FSM at all costs.

Why did you test between the coil and the battery??

Did you check the coil with it disconnected?

When was the last time new plug wires, plugs, oxygen sensor and fuel filter was replaced? Add a few ground wires to the engine too. One from block to body, one from intake manifold to body, and one from exhaust(near O2) to body. Is the firing order correct? Check the timing with the green connectors connected like the FSM states. Clean the MAF(when cold) with electrical contact cleaner. Have you checked the fault codes" What did you get? I've had a bad TPS, MAF, CTS, distributor pickup(optical whatever), O2, etc and always had a fault code.

Oh, and welcome to Subaru FI .

 

ALL of the fuel injection components have been tested and verified to be functioning as advertised, and rechecked, etc etc over the course of the last year to no avail... Plugs wires, filters etc all fresh, MAF is clean... I've gone over this in other threads, hence me saying "my alphabet is fine" in the first post.

 

However, I was clue-less when it came to IGNITION systems, and I finally managed to read up on that. My first 20 minutes of testing in my newfound field of "expertise" (meaning something i have a clue about) yielded up a significantly bad reading; I was seeking to confirm that this reading would cause my symptoms, since I still have virtually no experience with ignition system problems.. I figure I should be able to pull my plugs and they should show some evidence that I am not burning all my fuel (black but dry-ish, carbon buildup??) IF I am correct in my diagnosis.

 

I checked between the coil and battery to test the quality of the ground for the coil; should I have gotten something as high as 10 ohms??? is this UTTERLY irrelevant?

 

FI systems I know, and have worked with others in the past.. ignition systems, (yes, im just talking distrubutor, coil, ballast resistor.. ) I have NEVER had to work on, and have NEVER gotten a good explanation or understanding of.

[mikeshoup]

It could very well be your coil. The Subaru coils almost never fail, but they do every once in a while. My brother's did in his 88 SPFI. Similar troubles, car was having poor running condition, bad gas mileage, etc...

 

I didn't even think that the coil could be a possibility. :-\

[misledxcracker]

My bad TPS and also previously, my bad CTS had high readings... so MAYBE in your case, the high readings mean the coil is bad? Hope so, because thats not hard to do at all.... and now I'm going to go check my coil also!

 

(I get this stomach ache that doesnt go away when I hear there's a possibility of a bad ECU... just cant stomach it... hope it's not the issue!)

[GeneralDisorder]

Have you run a D-Check?

 

I doubt it's your ignition coil. It's probably just not the original coil or something. Some models of the coils put out slightly different resistance readings. You could try it but it's comparatively rare to see a coil fail and the engine still run. Internally the only way for them to fail is to short circuit.... which almost always results in total failure or a failure that occurs after warm-up.

 

GD

[Cougar]

Along with GD, I doubt that the coil is bad. Though I do think you may be correct about the plugwires being a problem. It the plugs and wires haven't been changed in a long time I would consider doing that over the coil swap. Also go over the engine ground leads. Some members have found trouble there.

[daeron]

Well, I shall run another D check tomorrow, time permitting.. I cannot recall exactly what codes were thrown on the last one, but if memory serves there was nothing more significant than the neutral position and vehicle speed sensors, and any searching or asking I have ever done on them has yielded little response.

 

It is also possible that I need an analog meter to check the resistance of either the TPS or the MAF.. but the checks I have made with my craftsman DMM have been OK and I cant recall having any code issue with either of them. I really wish I had a fuel pressure gauge, but I have no reason to doubt the pump or regulator.. is there any quick and dirty FPR check I can do without a vacuum pump handy?

[daeron]

I have thoroughly grounded this engine. The only things not specifically added are an intake manifold to chassis ground, and an exhaust to chassis ground; However, I get very low resistance between intake and ground cable, and exhaust and ground cable... so, I imagine they are fairly well grounded.

 

Ran the D check. Codes thrown: 32, 33, 51, 61. In order, thats O2 sensor (i have replaced it recently, so wiring?) vehicle speed sensor, neutral switch, and park switch.

 

Unplugging the O2 sensor does nothing to the car.. I tested the circuit per FSM procedure anyhow. It says I should get at least 0.1V+ at the terminal with the key on; i get 0.17V. Check. Low resistance between the body of the O2 sensor and battery ground, so the O2 sensor is well grounded.

 

On another note, I started playing around with "what could I have done wrong in diagnosis procedure" and decided that I needed to double check the zero calibration on the multimeter... and I cant calibrate it at all!! I touch the two probes together and get.. guess what, 0.7 ohms, the exact amount that my ignition coil was reading over spec impedance.... I still do not understand why I was reading ten ohms between the coil (-) terminal and the negative terminal of the battery, though. Does this NOT indicate a poor ground to my coil?? Last time when I asked that, I was answered with a "why did you do that?" which made no sense to me; how ELSE would i test the ground connection?

 

So. I am back to square one. I need an assistant to help me get an eyeball on the injector spray pattern, and i need a fuel pressure gauge.

 

This is seriously making me mad; such a major fault should show itself after as much testing and troubleshooting as I have done on this car. I havent got cash (surprise, I am broke as always) to just throw at spark parts when they all seem good and have been replaced recently anyhow.. the sparks are the oldest part, and theyve only been around for two years, NGK of course. The rest (cap/rotor/wires) is ALL about eight months old. yes, the rotor screw is in tight. yes, the firing order is right.

 

could one of the silly solenoids (purge/egr) be causing this kind of problem and not throwing a code??

 

on a side note, what a friggin time for a ~96 impreza to show up down the street for sale for $1,000..... at that price, you know its got issues though.

[Cougar]

You may be thinking that the plus and minus side of the coil refers to the battery and it doesn't, at least not exactly. I don't think the minus side of the coil is really tied directly to case ground of the coil. There are windings between it and ground. Check out references on autotransformers to see how they work.

 

You need to find out why the O2 sensor circuit is having a problem. That is the most critical code you have. Since the plugs and wires have been changed fairly recently it would seem they are fine but can't be totally ruled out still. Another possible problem may be a intake manifold leak. Have you checked for that?

 

As far as the solenoids go the codes are set by electrical problems with the circuit to them. The air lines through them can be bad but it won't set a code.

[daeron]

You may be thinking that the plus and minus side of the coil refers to the battery and it doesn't, at least not exactly. ......

 

You need to find out why the O2 sensor circuit is having a problem. That is the most critical code you have. Since the plugs and wires have been changed fairly recently it would seem they are fine but can't be totally ruled out still. Another possible problem may be a intake manifold leak. Have you checked for that?

 

Okay, well, I have just educated myself on ignition and coils, etc. Thank you on that.. regarding the possibility for leaks, I just replaced the headgaskets and intake manifold gaskets (dealer intakes, felpro permatorque HGs)

 

I guess I will go ahead and unplug the ECU, and do the full wire check on the O2 sensor.

 

I cranked her up this morning at about 4:00 and checked in the absolute dark for any spark "leaks" just in case.. not a thing.

 

thanks for the response, and all help is (as always) appreciated.

[daeron]

okayyyy.. so I just pulled all of my plugs to get a good look at them. They all look the same, kinda whitish brownish, no obvious problems with the electrodes or anything. There IS a decent amount of black coloring around the perimeter of the plug, but the electrode and grounding point are all clean of THAT... and it doesnt look oily, nor is it very heavy. Just black coloration.

 

I pull the vacuum supply line to the FPR while the engine is idling and nothing really happens.. No significant vacuum leak, engine continues to run fine. If I suck hard on the vacuum line going into the regulator, the engine will stutter and die rather quickly; I presume this is from fuel starvation. While the engine is dying, it DOES sound somewhat like it does when I hit the gas pedal and get my stumble... but I mean, a stumble is a stumble. When I applied positive pressure to the regulator, nothing happened.

 

In the middle of writing all this, I realized my data was incomplete.. so I just went out, took a quick test run to make sure the spark plug clean/gap change didnt do anything (they were ~.044, I set em to about .036, no change) It ran kinda crappy, and so I tried unhooking the vacuum line to the FPR. Seemed to run smoother.... should I just run to the junkyard, nap a FPR, and see if that helps anything? BTW, i can blow back through my return line with SOME effort, but it doesnt take too much.

 

In short, my brain is sick and tired of trying to troubleshoot this and its shutting down. I cannot process the data I am getting from playing these games with the FPR. Processing this data SHOULD be more than within my abilities, but the noggin is refusing to work any more on this problem. I need to open a dialog with someone who knows more and is more experienced than I.. anyone who has had major experiences with FI ea82s who would be so kind as to offer their one-on-one assistance would be appreciated. I know its kind of annoying having some guy bugging you about his car when he lives half a continent away, but I need help talking this problem out.

[subie_newbie]

I do declare: it's a fuel pump

 

Not enough pressure

[naru]

It ran kinda crappy, and so I tried unhooking the vacuum line to the FPR. Seemed to run smoother....[/quote

 

If this is true,then you are too lean because of a clogged filter,dirty injector,weak pump or more likely a vacuum leak.

 

Unhooking the line increases the fuel pressure.Put a gauge on it to confirm pressure.If OK,look for a vacuum leak.Monitoring O2 sensor voltage could prove enlightening.

 

OR confirm leaness by adding propane to the intake.RPM increase means you are too lean.

[daeron]

Well, I made it to the boneyard and snagged a FPR. I put it on there, and I *think* it solved my problems.. but if it did, I am almost dry on fuel. This, i think, is a highly possible scenario.. I've been out of work for over two months now, going a gallon at a time in the bloody tank. NOT good times

 

and disconnecting the vacuum line was most certainly NOT more functional in actual driving.. it seemed to rev better when it was PARKED, but when I did actually try driving it like that it was a NO go.

 

So basically, NOW I am waiting until I get some more gas to really see if the thing works right now, or not...... :-\

 

I do not own a fuel pressure gauge. I thought someone in my family did, but apparently no one else has ever NEEDED one for a high pressure application, D'oh!

 

and if the pressure regulator didnt do it, then by gum if I won't go back to the boneyard and grab the pump out of the loyale there. I am getting sick of this problem; it cost me my last job and it has been a MAJOR impedance in getting another...

 

big thanks again for the tips.

[daeron]

adding propane to the intake??? I presume you mean, turning the valve of a blowtorch on and feeding that into the air intake by opening the filter box... but wouldnt that increase RPM regardless of whether I was running lean or not?

 

My spark plugs do not look like they have been burning lean, but your suggestions are interesting...

 

I have listened all through the engine bay with a tube in one ear and heard NOTHING but bearing noises from tensioners, etc. No vacuum leaks traceable by my ears, and they still work pretty good.

 

The fuel filter has been changed somewhat recently... it MAY have 10K on it but not the full 144K of the engine.

 

and what would monitoring O2 sensor voltage DO? what would I be monitoring it for, and against what baseline? I know that the O2 sensor is specifically MADE for checking air/fuel ratios, but how do I turn the old DMM into an A/F gauge?

[naru]

adding propane to the intake??? I presume you mean, turning the valve of a blowtorch on and feeding that into the air intake by opening the filter box... but wouldnt that increase RPM regardless of whether I was running lean or not?

 

1-Yes,or at the throttle body if possible.RPM will only increase if you are lean at idle.

 

My spark plugs do not look like they have been burning lean, but your suggestions are interesting...

 

I have listened all through the engine bay with a tube in one ear and heard NOTHING but bearing noises from tensioners, etc. No vacuum leaks traceable by my ears, and they still work pretty good.

 

2-You ain`t going to hear it unless it is SUPER bad.

 

The fuel filter has been changed somewhat recently... it MAY have 10K on it but not the full 144K of the engine.

 

3-Doesn`t really mean anything.They can clog in 50 miles.Take it off and try to blow through it .

 

and what would monitoring O2 sensor voltage DO? what would I be monitoring it for, and against what baseline? I know that the O2 sensor is specifically MADE for checking air/fuel ratios, but how do I turn the old DMM into an A/F gauge?

 

4-W/any luck,it will tell you if you are lean w/o messing around w/propane.Once warm O2 sensor voltage indicates mixture.In closed loop voltage will vary rapidly above .45V(rich) and below .45V(lean).

W/a vacuum leak,voltage at idle will be below .45,maybe 0.

Carefully tap into the signal line.Or better yet,use one of the "check connectors" under the dash.Check your FSM for the correct one.

[daeron]

okay.. will do just that, thanks a bunch.

 

So, the other FPR did virtually nothing, if not literally nothing. I managed to go out and get some fuel, actually some HIGH test this time like she usually eats...

 

the problem i have with the idea of me running lean, is my TOTAL loss of fuel mileage. obviously I haven't been running through TANKS full, more like a gallon or two at a time.. BUT it seems to have gone from a norm of 25mpg bulletproof, highway or city.. to well under 20mpg. Maybe as low as 15, maybe not quite.. THAT is the biggest reason I cant believe in a lean situation being my problem..

 

Naturally, I can't for the life of me enroll ANYBODY to hit the bloody key while I watch the injector spray pattern, or eyeball the spark....... some friends, huh? Ten minutes of somebody's time I need... and I can't find anyone to help me do it during the daylight. I am about to start screaming at some of my friends over this.... I have only been trying to politely suggest, cajole, or outright ASK for some help for like three weeks now and no one seems to give a damn. Just another thing about this entire episode thats making me angry.. along with the lack of funds for new plugs/cap/rotor/fuel filter when I already HAVE recently changed all of that..... and the lack of fuel in my tank (the entire three months this problem has been gorwing, I have had a high point of about four gallons in my tank...) and worst of all, the lack of reliable, economical transportation to help me GET A JOB.

 

so yah, thanks for letting me vent a little on it, too.

[subie_newbie]

I feel for ya.

 

Back to the car... the poor fuel economy bothers me, too. Ok, I'm stumped. Keep everyone informed.

 

Where's GD when you need him, eh?

[Cougar]

In your first post on this trouble you stated the CTS was checked. Did you make sure the sensor was responding properly to the temperature changes of the coolant?

[Zebisko]

This may be a long shot, but maybe your fuel filter got clogged with all this bottom of the tank gas? When was it changed last?