NOT Ignition questions, then... but why isnt it working right?

[daeron]

In your first post on this trouble you stated the CTS was checked. Did you make sure the sensor was responding properly to the temperature changes of the coolant?

 

Yes, I calibrated it by checking at both warmed up, and cold temperatures..

 

regarding the fuel filter, it IS a possibility, but when this first onest several months ago I checked the filter and it did NOT seem excessively dirty to me. Nor did the fuel pump pickup screen. The filter was replaced about, eh, 20K ago..

 

The short version is, I need a fuel pressure gauge, pronto. I am going to bring all my wits and resources to bear on that issue starting tomorrow. With an ASE certified brother, that should NOT be as difficult as it has been.

 

I also would like to get an analog ohmmeter to test the TPS, to increase my peace of mind.

 

And I am twisting my landlord's arm tomorrow and forcing him to help me observe the spark and the injector spray pattern. I am THROUGH with fretting about this half-assed; if push comes to shove I will borrow ten bucks from someone and buy a cap, or a rotor, etc one at a time and exchange them back ("wrong part") once I confirm that changing it did nothing.. I am NOT going to be defeated on this one

[subie_newbie]

Get that fuel pressure reading before you go throwing parts at it.

 

I just re-watched and listened to the video clip you first posted. I think there's something wrong with that nut that's located directly behind the camera... haha..ok, that's enough of that. But it raised more questions...

 

Do you have a beastly exhaust leak or lack of exhaust? When you're driving it, does the car have a total lack of power, or is it really pathetic under acceleration and then sort of smooths out at cruising speed, or does it stumble upon initial acceleration and then pick itself up and do OK? Can you take an audio clip doing a partial and full throttle pull in second or third gear?

 

Here's two new thoughts. What if the passenger side timing belt jumped a tooth? Your timing would still look good, and you'd probably be able to run, but your mileage and power would be horrible.

 

No? Ok, how about this one. If your EGR system is a total funky mess and is blocked wide open, you'll be shoving way to much exhaust into the intake at the wrong times, making for a crappy fuel burn, more throttle required to go the same speed (bad mileage) and really bad and erattic running.

 

Flamers? Anyone? Remember, I've never even seen at an EA82!

 

One more thing: if you're broke, as it sounds like you are, don't waste your money on high octane fuel. You don't need it with that motor. If you're hearing knocking, that's a sign of something totally wrong, not a sign you need better fuel. On a totaly possible thread hijack, you'll actually get better mileage and power out of lower octane fuel if your motor's compression is low enough to run on it, which your is.

[daeron]

Do you have a beastly exhaust leak or lack of exhaust? Yes When you're driving it, does the car have a total lack of power, or is it really pathetic under acceleration and then sort of smooths out at cruising speed, or does it stumble upon initial acceleration and then pick itself up and do OK? Can you take an audio clip doing a partial and full throttle pull in second or third gear? It has poor off-idle throttle response, and I usually have to fidget the pedal back and forth from zero accel to full accel (NOT WOT, just that point in throttle beyond which you get no more accel) to get it to "clear up" but it doesnt seem speed related (vehicle or engine speed)

 

Here's two new thoughts. What if the passenger side timing belt jumped a tooth? Your timing would still look good, and you'd probably be able to run, but your mileage and power would be horrible. I just changed the headgkastes, this problem was present before then and is present still, the timing belts are something that I know pretty good. HIGHLY unlikely, I plan on trying a new ECU before even inspecting that. (read:i do not plan on inspecting that until i am ready to throw the car away)

 

No? Ok, how about this one. If your EGR system is a total funky mess and is blocked wide open, you'll be shoving way to much exhaust into the intake at the wrong times, making for a crappy fuel burn, more throttle required to go the same speed (bad mileage) and really bad and erattic running.

??? I know virtually zero about the EGR system, so you may well be right. I suppose I ought to look into it, but I have no associated codes.. Good lead, I guess. thanks!

Flamers? Anyone? Remember, I've never even seen at an EA82!

 

One more thing: if you're broke, as it sounds like you are, don't waste your money on high octane fuel. You don't need it with that motor. If you're hearing knocking, that's a sign of something totally wrong, not a sign you need better fuel. On a totaly possible thread hijack, you'll actually get better mileage and power out of lower octane fuel if your motor's compression is low enough to run on it, which your is.

 

I was delivering pizzas for some time in this vehicle. While I was doing that, I noticed an excessive amount of odd engine noise when trying to accelerate uphill (turning from a stoplight onto a bridge in two or three spots.. but I went through those spots ALOT) The engine noise was accompanied by a lack of power; I asked my brother about it, the ASE certified mechanic who gave me the car, and he almost smacked me upside the head when I said I was running low-test; he said he had TOLD me it needed high test or it would ping. It certainly smoothed it out a year ago when I started using high test.

 

I haven't tried "going back" until recently, when fundage forced me to pick up a couple gallons here, and there, and they were usually low test. Really, seriously, HOW do you detect pinging?? I mean, I have a VERY good vague idea.. but its vague. I know what pinging/predetonation IS, I just don't know what to listen for..

 

And YES, I DO have ghastly exhaust leaks.. some minor leaking at the manifold, one leak on one side just after the first 90* in the y-pipe, and the cat was opened, gutted, and welded. The entire weld line kinda looks perforated... and the system beyond that is kinda patchwork going to the muffler. It doesnt leak so bad that its very noisy or anything... but its louder than it could be for sure. I call seafoam my exhaust leak detector

 

If I were to try to quantify how much of the exhaust leak is AFTER the O2 sensor, I would say ~85%.

 

I went to the boneyard and snagged the fuel pump today (someone else's dime, my friend needed a fender and she didnt want to get visually raped by the mexicans in the yard.. so she needed a big strong man to help her out) I will try swapping it out. Free diagnostic info, and a spare if nothing else.

[daeron]

By the way, Im rollin wif da crappy 3 speed auto box.... and the transmission is NOT "bulletproof," "solid," or any other positive adjective. its not dying or anything, but ive got the governor gear, "wont shift outta first until i hit 25mph for the first time then shifts fine" problem...... but nothing beyond that.

 

Is there any chance that this problem might be arising from something wrong with my tranny??? might a simple drain five quarts, fill up, drive a few hundred miles, drain five quarts again maybe help?? could the tranny be emulating a major vacuum leak in some way? The peculiarity of the nature of this problem, the way it comes and goes, has made me wonder if there was any way the trans might be even partially to blame.

 

maybe? any ideas?

[mikeshoup]

The fact your motor was detonating on low-test means there is something wrong there. It could have had something to do with the head gaskets, and now that you changed those, you might not have a problem. My SPFI motor ran fine on our 85 octane (high elevation, don't need as high of octane though so may not be much of a sign)

 

Sounds like the EGR is stuck open. If you have some sheet metal laying around, take off the EGR valve and fabricate a block off plate. This will allow you to at least rule it out.

 

Otherwise, install the fuel pump and hope for the best.

 

This doesn't sound like a tranny issue. Usually if the governor is causing a vacuum leak, you'll suck in ATF too.

 

I know how you feel with being low on money. My wagon was overheating, so I pulled the thermostat because I can't afford the $15 for the new one, and now its overcooling... Being broke sucks.

[Cougar]

I doubt that the problem with the tranny is causing the engine trouble. There is a product on the market called Auto-RX that may help with getting rid of the tranny problem. It sounds like something is sticking and preventing the shift.

 

Earlier you stated there was a problem with the O2 sensor working. Did you get that fixed yet? Since you replaced the sensor then the problem would seem to be with the circuit wiring to the sensor. My info shows that the sensor wire goes to pin 48 of the ECU.

[Gloyale]

Earlier you stated there was a problem with the O2 sensor working. Did you get that fixed yet? Since you replaced the sensor then the problem would seem to be with the circuit wiring to the sensor. My info shows that the sensor wire goes to pin 48 of the ECU.

 

You must be looking at a different year FSM. The 87 SPFI diagrahm shows O2 wire goes to pin 34 of ECU( 4th pin in from right, bottom row with lock tab up, large yellow connector.)

[Cougar]

Thanks for the notice Gloyal. When I looked up the info I was thinking of a '87 MPFI engine. Though I thought that they first came out out in '88, but since Daeron had a GL-10 is was thinking MPFI, not SPFI.

[daeron]

Okay, I probly wont get a chance to do any work until tomorrow..

 

In order, I will:

 

Check O2 sensor

change fuel pump (easy to do, I had mine off already, no tricky bolts, hoses come undone easily enough)

bypass EGR.

 

ahhh... some time ago the vacuum connection to one of the two solenoids got broken off, and I winded up JB welding the hose,with the plastic barb broken off inside of it, back onto the body of the solenoid. This was before I joined the board, and had no clue what the bloody thing was; it ran FINE for many months after this "fix," but could that somehow be my issue, without it throwing a code about it? (i KNEW I should have just gotten the solenoid outta the loyale in the JY)

 

I have like, three new ideas now to check on the thing. This is GREAT, three days ago I was at a dead end. Education continues...

[Cougar]

The ECU can only tell if the solenoid isn't working by checking it electrically so if you left the device hooked up then it won't throw a code.

 

A intake vacuum leak after the MAF sensor will cause a lean condition that the O2 sensor could see if it is working correctly.

[subie_newbie]

pinging or knocking will sound like a large electrical short, or someone smacking two hollow coconut halves together. Usually happens a lot all at once. It's an unmistakeable sound.

 

I'm not too suspect of that vaccum solenoid. But one never knows. Can ya take a picture of it so we can identify it?

 

The pinging is still a problem. I hate to even mention it ... could be a hole in a piston or a burned valve.

 

I'm still putting my money on fuel pressure. Let us know.

[daeron]

I just re read this whole thread from the beginning, and must apologize to you cougar; I've asked, and you've answered about the solenoids at least twice now, and somehow missed that...

 

I am starting to do something right now; im gonna inspect the EGR valve and look into the O2 sensor voltage at the ECU terminal. It would be INFINITELY easier for me right now to fabricate a wooden block off "plate" to rule out the egr system than anything metal.. no stock lying around the house, yanno. How stupid would that be? obviously it would only be UTTERLY temporary, IE i discover this fixes it and promptly go to shop to make one out of metal...

 

I seem to have missed answering questions about potential intake or vacuum leaks; I have very thoroughly, carefully, and slowly listened throughout this engine bay with a 3/8 inch tube in one ear, and the other end fished around every cubic inch of the engine bay. I inspected all the vacuum lines etc when taking the heads off; the ONLY "issue" is that the PCV hoses are all old and hard, but they still seal up decently.

 

One question about this EGR thing.. I have read the relevant sections in the FSM now and cant figure out where the exhaust gas that the valve lets into the intake COMES from! all I see is the valve, on a kinda rusty steel base bolted onto a flange on the intake manifold. There is a vacuum line connected to it. How does exhaust get to the valve to be allowed in? I guess I should just take the thing off and I will see. Can you tell this is the first time I have ever needed to look at an EGR system?

[Gloyale]

 

One question about this EGR thing.. I have read the relevant sections in the FSM now and cant figure out where the exhaust gas that the valve lets into the intake COMES from! all I see is the valve, on a kinda rusty steel base bolted onto a flange on the intake manifold. There is a vacuum line connected to it. How does exhaust get to the valve to be allowed in? I guess I should just take the thing off and I will see. Can you tell this is the first time I have ever needed to look at an EGR system?

 

For SPFI, there is a tube that comes out of the pass head, out of the top of the exhaust port. Short elbow with a heat sheild on it. Runs up into the manifold.

[subie_newbie]

And there should be a vaccum line to the EGR valve.

 

Wood would work if wood could work if a wood chuck would chuck wood.

 

Yeah, wood for temporary is OK, but not for long AT ALL. Like, fire danger Will Robinson!

[daeron]

For SPFI, there is a tube that comes out of the pass head, out of the top of the exhaust port. Short elbow with a heat sheild on it. Runs up into the manifold.

 

Wow, I had thought that was a water pipe... oops, huh?

 

Okay now... from what I gather the car needs to be WELL warmed up (not just operating temperature but driven to warm up the O2 sensor.) for me to check that.. and I just jam my positive multimeter lead into the designated pin on the ECU?

 

I take it that I can unbolt the ECU and let it dangle for the purposes of this test.. or does it get its ground from being bolted down? I don't want to fry my ECU here.

 

I took the EGR valve off; it had some carbon caked up on the inside of the valve, around the stem area. However, it moved freely when I sucked on the vacuum line supply to it, it returned immediately to its closed position when i let go, and when it was closed it was a complete blockoff; so unless my solenoid is malfunctioning the valve seems to be A-okay.

 

as always, i appreciate everyone holding my hand as I walk through the last bits of unexplored territory in my search to heal the stumble. I will try to get some video of me driving the car today; I finally remembered to throw the batteries for the digi onto the charger last night.

[subie_newbie]

For temporary purposes, any sheetmetal will do. Just get a tube of copper RTV and goop it up, then give it a few hours to dry. Again, temporary. And, if you bolt the EGR valve back over the top of the new block plate and goop that side up, too, it'll plug the exhaust leak created and help hold the plate flat.

[daeron]

Okay, so I warmed the car up in the driveway... since the ECU was dangling i didnt feel like taking it for an actual DRIVE to ensure the O2 sensor was warmed up, but I ran it at about 2K RPM in the driveway with the AC on full blast for about two minutes. I figure thats enough load to make it hot??? am I right in that, or should I tack the ECU back into place and go for a real drive?

 

Anyhow, presuming that what I did was OK, i got puzzling results. the voltage at the specified connector (fourth in, from the right, on the large yellow connector, with the lock tab up) was 0.21 pretty steady at idle.. and I couldnt get it to move much at all. It didnt go below that, (not much anyhow) but thumping the gas did nothing more than raise it MAYBE to .25 volts. When I cut it off, it returned to zero, when I turned the key back to on it read 0.21 before I started the engine.. WHILE i was cranking it peaked up to like, 0.32 or so... then once it was running it settled back down to 0.21.

 

I guess I can take this as a "lean" conditiion? I am gonna go back and test the same voltage at the wire plugging into the O2 sensor and see what I get, then try swapping my fuel pumps.

 

Will post an update when I get more info, any further comments are naturally appreciated.

[daeron]

ALLRIGHT... I thought I was confused and lost BEFORE!!!

 

I just had a MAJOR brain fart, and was conducting all these tests, and getting matching voltage between the ECU pin and the O2 sensor end of the wire....

 

BUT I WAS CHECKING THE WRONG PIN ON THE ECU!!

 

I read Gloyales remark about the O2 sensor pin being #34, the fourth pin in from the right, bottom level, with the lock tab pointing up, large yellow connector...

 

I went and checked the fourth pin in from the LEFT, which my 89 FSM says should be the clear memory connector...... BUT... it was showing me just what my O2 sensor was showing me, 0.21 volts! the fourth pin in from the RIGHT, as Gloyale indicated, is showing me BATTERY voltage?!??????

 

WTF??? what is going on here? what color should the wire for my O2 sensor be at the ECU end? Should it match the color of the wire on the sensor end??

 

Im gonna go swap my fuel pump and see what happens....

 

Anyone in the south florida area with a sidearm, please feel free to swing by and put a bullet or two in my head. It might help relieve the headache...

[Cougar]

To see if you have the correct lead you can use your ohmmeter to check it. One trick you can do is disconnect the ECU end and then short the sensor end to ground using a jumper. Then check the ECU connector end using your meter with the probe leads between the pin and ground. You should see a short if you have the correct wire and there isn't any problem with the wire connection to the sensor.

[daeron]

To see if you have the correct lead you can use your ohmmeter to check it. One trick you can do is disconnect the ECU end and then short the sensor end to ground using a jumper. Then check the ECU connector end using your meter with the probe leads between the pin and ground. You should see a short if you have the correct wire and there isn't any problem with the wire connection to the sensor.

 

Oh.

 

Yah.

 

Duh.

 

Thanks. I hadnt gotten that far yet... I just tried swapping fuel pumps and its the same deal.. I snagged a coil wire out of the car in the boneyard, too.. that made no difference...

 

I guess I ought to confirm my O2 wire.. i dont believe i didnt think of that. I hadnt even gotten so far as asking myself "how do i check if this is the wire?"

 

I had vaguely thought of trying the continuity check, but not really with the front of my brain yet.

 

thanks again cougar..

[Gloyale]

BUT I WAS CHECKING THE WRONG PIN ON THE ECU!!

 

I read Gloyales remark about the O2 sensor pin being #34, the fourth pin in from the right, bottom level, with the lock tab pointing up, large yellow connector...

 

I went and checked the fourth pin in from the LEFT, which my 89 FSM says should be the clear memory connector...... BUT... it was showing me just what my O2 sensor was showing me, 0.21 volts! the fourth pin in from the RIGHT, as Gloyale indicated, is showing me BATTERY voltage?!??????

 

WTF??? what is going on here? what color should the wire for my O2 sensor be at the ECU end? Should it match the color of the wire on the sensor end??

 

Damn, I just left my 87 FSM at the Machine shop with the engine I just dropped off. I wnated them to have a set of Factory engine specs. And unfortunately I only have the Section 2-3 Engine and Tranny portion for 87. So I don't have ALL the Wiring answers. But there is a fair deal of Engine wiring covered in the Fuel injection portion of Section 2(engine) Long story short I can't tell you the wire color. Generally the wires often are different color from one end to another. I'll look into it. In other years, it appears to be a continuos wire from the snesor to the ECU, so it would be the same color I believe. But I can't say for 87. Which, BTW is the oddball year for everything. So you gotta make sure you get the right info

[daeron]

Damn, I just left my 87 FSM at the Machine shop with the engine I just dropped off. I wnated them to have a set of Factory engine specs. And unfortunately I only have the Section 2-3 Engine and Tranny portion for 87. So I don't have ALL the Wiring answers. But there is a fair deal of Engine wiring covered in the Fuel injection portion of Section 2(engine) Long story short I can't tell you the wire color. Generally the wires often are different color from one end to another. I'll look into it. In other years, it appears to be a continuos wire from the snesor to the ECU, so it would be the same color I believe. But I can't say for 87. Which, BTW is the oddball year for everything. So you gotta make sure you get the right info

 

 

Yah dude, you guys gotta keep in mind that I am just NOT thinking right, so the pbvious things (like cougars method of finding the O2 sensor wire with a multimeter) are just not occurring to me. It is enough to know that the wire is not necessarily the same color on both ends; it may be it may not. I can get this figured out, it just BLEW my MIND That A: I made the brain fart of checking the fourth pin from the LEFT, getting my right and left confused.. and then B: that fourth pin from the LEFT seemed to be telling me it was the )2 sensor wire!

 

INCIDENTALLY!!!!!!! I just now realized that the fact that I relayed my starter circuit, means that I in a sense have a remote starter switch!! I can check injector spray pattern, and spark characteristics, without an assistant to man the key!!!! DUH!! See what I mean? I have been held up by a lack of an assistant for weeks in checking those two, when all I have to do is touch my relay signal wire coming from the ignition switch, to the battery terminal!! *smacks*self*in*forehead*

 

the stress of no job is really getting to me.

[MilesFox]

i would look around in the MAF area and check the pins on the connector for corrosion.

 

try cleaning off the engine temp sensor (the one with 2 prongs) connector as well.

 

my 92 loyale was like this i had to swap out the MAF assembly.

[daeron]

Allright now, lets bring things up to speed.

 

 

Only codes thrown in D check are O2 sensor, vehicle speed sensor, neutral switch, and park switch. I have changed to junkyard FPR and fuel pump to no avail. Fuel filter, air filter, plugs can wires and rotor all fairly fresh... CTS, TPS, MAF, IAC, and EGR all working properly. No vacuum leaks detected by REPEATED "hose-stethoscope" method. My spark plugs look good, a nice clean burn.. yet my fuel mileage has gone from something in the 25mpg region to something in the 15-18 mpg region. (in addition to the horrible running condition) I smell no fuel to indicate a leak anywhere; certainly not a leak to account for THAT kind of loss. My sparks WERE gapped at .042", now they are gapped at .036.. those are the upper and lower range stated in the FSM.

 

I tried to eyeball the injector spray pattern, but quite frankly it was going too fast for me to SEE it!! I did not notice any irregularities, and it moistened up the throttle plate good and quick..

 

I just verified that my "fourth pin from the left," the pin I had been testing initially, IS in fact the line from the O2 sensor. for the record, when I unplug the connector and look at it THAT way, with the lock tab up, said pin IS the fourth one in from the right... It changes whether you are looking at the ECU side of the connector, or the wire side of the connector. (duh) When I check voltage in this system with the car warmed up and running, it is rather steady at 0.21.. it can go as high as 0.33 but I only saw that at startup. Interestingly enough, 0.21 volts is what the ECU feeds it with the key on, engine off.. Does this mean my O2 sensor isnt doing ANYTHING? is there any way to "test" the functioning of my O2 sensor?? why does unplugging my O2 sensor do NOTHING to effect the running of the car?

 

I have zero resistance in that line. SO, I guess maybe the (used) O2 sensor I put in was no better than the one I took out, or I need a new ECU.

 

Now, things that I have NOT verified yet.. fuel pressure and quality of spark.

 

I am REALLY beginning to think about playing with the distributor timing, but any playing in that field is going to be done blind, and the timing as it sits now was set with a light. Marking the distributor with a sharpie should be good enough to give me a spot to adjust back to, if changing the timing doesnt do anything, right? Would you think I should advance it more, or retard it?

 

The more I battle this the more I want to try a new ECU, but i dont have the bucks to cough up at the junkyard if I am wrong... I am about to find a way to run a leakdown test or run another compression check.. is there any way that a problem like THIS could arise from lower end damage done while I was driving many months with a blown headgasket? no water in oil that I could DETECT...

 

so to re state..

 

O2 sensor:

How can i test its function?

why does unpluging it make no difference to the car?

does my voltage reading indicate a lean running condition, spark plug condition be damned?

 

Timing:

would a sharpie mark probably be good enough for me to put it back to the timing i have now (which was set with a light)?

which would be recommended, advancing or retarding? (i can do both, just curious)

 

ECU:

anyone feel like shipping me an ECU for cost of shipping? seriously, the junkyard here only wants $25 so it probably wouldnt be worth it to have one shipped..

 

anyone think the ECU is a likely culprit?

 

Fuel:

someone wave a magic wand and materialize a fuel pressure gauge for me. While youre at it, make new sparks, plugs wires cap rotor and filters for me, too, since I am too broke to buy all that and rule them all out 100%. (well, popping the air box open makes no difference so i know it isnt the air filter..)

[MilesFox]

the instance i had with my maf the ecu did not throw a code, but changing the maf did improve.

 

check all the grounds on the engine harness and at the intake bolts