Timing Belt Life EA82

[psylosyfer]

Isn't the scheduled replacement for timing belts 60K ? And has anyone ever had them last that long? On 6 of my 7 EA82's the Driver side belt has ALWAYS failed after about 30-40K miles.

[nipper]

Have you replaced the idler and the tensioners? They regularly last beyond 60k, and sometimes a lot longer.

 

 

nipper

[Bucky92]

Buckys ( my 92 Loyale) first one went at around 90K ( I had reciepts to prove that) ..not sure if it was changed again sometime in between but I change them a year and a half ago at 195K..and the cars at 203K now

[idosubaru]

the drivers side typically breaks before the passengers side, that's normal.

 

replace all your timing pulleys (or the bearings in them) and your belts will likely last longer.

 

they can easily last more than 60k. depends on many factors. the bearings in the timing pulleys and sprockets are rarely anywhere near as good as new ones. most on the road are 15 years old, make noise and spin freely...not tight like a new grease filled bearing would. none that i ever pull (most have the original pulleys still) are in excellent condition. this generates heat which ruins the belt. add to that overheating due to various cooling system components that are 15 years old and may fail, leaking cam, crank or oil pump seals that get the belt wet and it's not hard to have conditions that cause them to fail early.

[psylosyfer]

Many thanks on the belt life issue! someone should just sale an aftermarket conversion to chain or gears!!

[nipper]

Many thanks on the belt life issue! someone should just sale an aftermarket conversion to chain or gears!!

 

Ah belt vs chain

 

Chains are noisey and heavy, so they rob power. They also need lubrication, so thats even more mass added to the engine. Mass also equals slower reving.

 

Chainsare lousy at absorbing vibrations from the cam drive. Timing belts are a big jump ahead in technology. The disadvantage is that they are wide, and add length to the engine. Thats why subaru used a chain in the 6. THey are thinnner then belts, so they shorten the motor.

 

I dont think you want a small 4 cylinder with a timing chain.

 

nipper

[Reveeen]

I admit to getting curious about Subaru, and timing chains, so I checked with my closest dealer.

They are telling me that in the 6 the chain change interval is 168,000Km and is done at the 168,000Km "service". (chain, gears, idlers, guides, gaskets, seals, "O" rings, tensioner)

 

Let me assure you, if you think a couple of belts and pulleys every 100,000Km, or so, is both expensive and time consuming, it has NOTHING on the cost of parts and labour on a Subaru timing chain @ 168,000Km.

[nipper]

I admit to getting curious about Subaru, and timing chains, so I checked with my closest dealer.

They are telling me that in the 6 the chain change interval is 168,000Km and is done at the 168,000Km "service". (chain, gears, idlers, guides, gaskets, seals, "O" rings, tensioner)

 

Let me assure you, if you think a couple of belts and pulleys every 100,000Km, or so, is both expensive and time consuming, it has NOTHING on the cost of parts and labour on a Subaru timing chain @ 168,000Km.

 

Did they also tell you there are (not kidding here) 100 bolts that hold the covers one?

 

I even consider that overkill

 

nipper

[Reveeen]

Did they also tell you there are (not kidding here) 100 bolts that hold the covers one?

 

I didn't get that far.............somehow I don't *think* changing a bicycle type timing chain, that is well oiled, at 168,000Km (105,000mi) can qualify as attatched to something I would want to own. I suppose if it was cheap enough (the entire car), but they aren't. Considering I've seen over 500,000 miles on 3 Subaru cars so far I can only *guess* they don't expect these to go that far.

[robm]

Nipper wrote:

I dont think you want a small 4 cylinder with a timing chain.

 

I wouldn't mind.

 

Just about ALL small cars engines of the 70's, 80's had them. Datsun L16/18/20B had tons of power and potential for more. Timing chain service consisted of advancing the cam, using extra timing marks on the cam sprocket, at 100,000 miles or so. If you were good, only the upper chain cover had to come off. Otherwise, it meant pulling the rad and removing the whole front cover - maybe an extra hour's work, as I recall.

 

Timing belts were in their infancy, and had short replacement intervals. The EA82 was designed in this era, hence the 90,000 km service interval. Fortunately, the EA82 is second generation, and they were smart enough to make it non-interference. Not like the late and unlamented Ford Pinto...

[nipper]

Nipper wrote:

 

 

I wouldn't mind.

 

Just about ALL small cars engines of the 70's, 80's had them. Datsun L16/18/20B had tons of power and potential for more. Timing chain service consisted of advancing the cam, using extra timing marks on the cam sprocket, at 100,000 miles or so. If you were good, only the upper chain cover had to come off. Otherwise, it meant pulling the rad and removing the whole front cover - maybe an extra hour's work, as I recall.

 

Timing belts were in their infancy, and had short replacement intervals. The EA82 was designed in this era, hence the 90,000 km service interval. Fortunately, the EA82 is second generation, and they were smart enough to make it non-interference. Not like the late and unlamented Ford Pinto...

 

Yes and all small cars back then were low compression 2 valves per cylinder, low HP low torque and would not stand up to what is demanded today of 4 cylinders.

 

You are getting the same power out of todays 4cyls as the 1970's small v-8s.

 

Part of the reason is the timing chain. Also from a cost point of view a timing belt is much cheaper. You also have external noise standards that didint exist in the 1970's that a belt helps the car pass. Also the timing chain itself has a limit as to how many FPM it can spin as opposed to a belt.The chain is heavier or has a higher polar moment of inertia so it consumes more of the engines horsepower before it reaches the wheels. Chains stretch as they wear and that causes the engine timing to retard affecting the power slightly over time. Belts stretch less and only for the first few hours of operation. They also transmit less harmonics from the reciprocating assembly to the valve train making for more stable valve timing.

 

 

I am surprised though, 106,000 miles for the timing chain seems shockingly low. I know other modern cars with timing chains get closer to 200,000 miles.

 

Everything in its infancy had a short replacement interval. Go back to the 70's and cars werent expected to last much more past 80,000 miles, today 200,000 is the target.

 

 

You just cant compare things like that without looking at everything.

 

"There are many more advantages to a belt-drive system than ease of use. A belt drive can increase power over a timing chain through less frictional loss, more precise timing, smoother valvetrain motion and eliminating windage caused by the timing chain and gears running in oil. A belt drive also isolates the crankshaft's torsional vibrations from the camshaft better than a chain (and certainly better than gear drives, which can amplify crank harmonics). Think of it as a second harmonic damper for the rotating assembly. And with all that engine builders are doing to stabilize cylinder-to-cylinder camshaft timing, such as larger-diameter cams, doesn't it make sense to do what you can to precisely phase the camshaft to the crankshaft?" From valvoline

 

 

 

nipper

[Snowman]

One thing many people are unaware of is that the belts are supposed to be retentioned 20k after they are put on. When this is not done, they start flapping and break early. This is why the EJ cars use hydraulic tensioners.

 

Another big issue is people not replacing tensioners and idlers that are faulty. I've seen several broken belts caused by seized tensioners/idlers.

 

Finally, the last thing that kills belts like nothing else is oil leaks. If oil is getting on the belts, they fall apart and break. I saw one car that was leaking so badly that the new belts somebody (not me!) put on lasted less than 10k.

 

And yes, I realize that timing belts vs chains is a matter of opinion, but here's mine: If you take care of your belts they will last at least 50-60k with no problems. I have never broken a belt. It takes a couple hours to change belts, the cost is minimal, and if you plan ahead and do other maintenance like the water pump and oil seals while you're in there, the overall time you have to spend is even more trivial. Chains usually don't break, but they do wear out and are a pain in the butt. If you're really worried about reliability, get an EA81 or a diesel pickup with gear drive and be done with it.

[nipper]

get an EA81 or a diesel pickup with gear drive and be done with it.

 

I always knew you were a trouble maker .... I wasnt even going to mention gear drives

 

:-p

 

nipper

[daeron]

Finally, the last thing that kills belts like nothing else is oil leaks. If oil is getting on the belts, they fall apart and break. I saw one car that was leaking so badly that the new belts somebody (not me!) put on lasted less than 10k.

+1000

 

My first car was a 92 geo storm hatchback. It had a 12 valve, 1.6liter isuzu engine in it, non interference THANK GOD. Why, how do I know this? The timing belt broke on my way down to boca raton to register for college at Florida Atlantic University, beginning what was to wind up being (for many, MANY other reasons) what I call frankly, the worst night of my life.

 

So when it happened, all I knew was "it broke." It didnt take long for my dad to diagnose a broken timing belt, and I wound up repairing it at my friends house. This was about fifty miles driving distance from where I lived at the time, so towing was more than I could afford.

 

We could NOT get the crankshaft pulley off. No way, no how. I had to tow it off in the end anyhow.. to my brother's house. We did EVERYTHING We could to get the bloody pulley off, and STILL couldnt do it.. so we just broke an aluminum flange that covered the bottom half of the sprocket, and slipped the belt on that way. I replaced my water pump, and my camshaft oil seal that that time; the logic was, timing belt broke because of a bad oil seal. Unfortunately, we couldnt do the crank seal because we couldnt get the pulley off.

 

Fast forward FOUR THOUSAND MILES... belt snapped again. this was only two months later.. so I replaced it again, and got my brother to pop the thing off by driving to his shop and letting him use his big 3/4 inch air gun to loosen it. I replaced the oil seal, and another timing belt, and thought i was fine. Fast forward FOUR THOUSAND MILES.. belt pops AGAIIN!! THIS time, before it popped the car had started running VERY erratically.. hard to describe. Actually its not far from what my subaru is doing now.. (but it IS different) The reason was obvious.. the woodruff key, and its associated groove on the timing belt sprocket, had worn loose and buggered up the oil seal. So I went to the dealership and bought a new sprocket, woodruff key, and bolt, replaced the oil seal and timing belt AGAIN.

 

Fast forward four thousand miles.. the car started running rough again, just like it had before I did the woodruff key. My other brother did a little research on the internet (still kinda new to me, a school thing not a home thing yet at the time) and discovered that these isuzu engines have an issue where the crankshaft can just kinda start eating these things..

 

Fortunately, my '75 280Z-to-be showed up parked on my parents corner just then, for $300. SOLD!!! I'll take the timing chain, thank you very much!

 

My point was that yes, oil kills timing belts like I kill mosquitoes.. ruthlessly, and as fast as I can make contact. The pro-chain remark there at the end was more Datsun>Geo than anything else... I got to be a real professional at doing the T belt on that thing, though..

[Petersubaru]

All the timing belts on my '86 have been changed out professionally (subaru) since new and I can never go more then 50-53,000 mi with them..Even when the car was brand new the driver side belt broke at 25,000 mi

[Ginger48]

If the Chinese made timing belts are of similar quality as Chinese bearings, I understand why some belts don't last. INFERIOR CHEEP JUNK! You get what you pay for.

[Snowman]

All the timing belts on my '86 have been changed out professionally (subaru) since new and I can never go more then 50-53,000 mi with them..Even when the car was brand new the driver side belt broke at 25,000 mi

 

Did you have them retentioned at the 20k interval after installation?

[Ginger48]

Did you have them retentioned at the 20k interval after installation?

 

Since Subaru doesn't recommend retentioning belts, I've never done it. I've always used the best belts available, lubed the idler bearings or replaced the idlers with high quality replacements, serviced at 60,000 mile intervals, and never had a problem in over 275,000 miles.

[Tom63050]

Since Subaru doesn't recommend retentioning belts, I've never done it. I've always used the best belts available, lubed the idler bearings or replaced the idlers with high quality replacements, serviced at 60,000 mile intervals, and never had a problem in over 275,000 miles.

I would still say that they DO need tensioning every 20K. I had one break at 20K after I put it on. No oil leaks either. Much later I found out that they should be re-tensioned since the belt tensioners are manually adjusted, not hydraulic. The belt will either break, or it will slip teeth on the camshaft sprocket, due to stretching. Then the car will run poorly or not at all, depending on how many teeth it slipped, because ignition timing will be off. And my pulleys were fine.

 

Also, even if it doesn't break or slip teeth, as the belt stretches it retards the ignition timing. I discovered this once when I adjusted the belts about 10K after installing new belts, and got noticeably more power. For those who don't know, the driver-side (in the USA) belt also drives the distributor, through the rear of the driver-side camshaft. So belt stretch will change timing. Anyway, it's good to get in there and take a look at things every 10K, just on general principles.

 

The first time you do the belts, you will have to take off the outer timing-belt covers. Leave 'em off, and anything you need to do in there afterwards will be a lot easier. Also, when you put any kind of belt on, put it on with the writing on the belt facing you, so if you have to take belts off and reinstall them, you know which way they went.

[daeron]

For those who don't know, the driver-side (in the USA) belt also drives the cam, through the rear of the driver-side camshaft.

 

 

He meant to say "distributor." Just thought I would make the correction for ya

[Tom63050]

He meant to say "distributor." Just thought I would make the correction for ya

 

Duh, right, thanks. Made the correction.

[TahoeFerrari]

Ditto to what everyone has said about retensioning. It really should be done. I've got a total of 520K miles on 2 EA82 spfi engined Subies and have never had a broken a timing belt. Change them at 60K miles along with cam seals, replace idlers and tensioners as needed, and retension every 20K miles to coincide with oil change, or other maintenance - like replacing / retensioning V belts and other routine stuff that should be done (but often isn't). Once you've done it a few times, it really doesn't take all that long (of course, I got rid of the thermo clutch fan in favor of an electric - which makes the job that much easier!)

[Prospeeder]

+1000

 

My first car was a 92 geo storm hatchback. It had a 12 valve, 1.6liter isuzu engine in it, non interference THANK GOD. Why, how do I know this? The timing belt broke on my way down to boca raton to register for college at Florida Atlantic University, beginning what was to wind up being (for many, MANY other reasons) what I call frankly, the worst night of my life.

 

So when it happened, all I knew was "it broke." It didnt take long for my dad to diagnose a broken timing belt, and I wound up repairing it at my friends house. This was about fifty miles driving distance from where I lived at the time, so towing was more than I could afford.

 

We could NOT get the crankshaft pulley off. No way, no how. I had to tow it off in the end anyhow.. to my brother's house. We did EVERYTHING We could to get the bloody pulley off, and STILL couldnt do it.. so we just broke an aluminum flange that covered the bottom half of the sprocket, and slipped the belt on that way. I replaced my water pump, and my camshaft oil seal that that time; the logic was, timing belt broke because of a bad oil seal. Unfortunately, we couldnt do the crank seal because we couldnt get the pulley off.

 

Fast forward FOUR THOUSAND MILES... belt snapped again. this was only two months later.. so I replaced it again, and got my brother to pop the thing off by driving to his shop and letting him use his big 3/4 inch air gun to loosen it. I replaced the oil seal, and another timing belt, and thought i was fine. Fast forward FOUR THOUSAND MILES.. belt pops AGAIIN!! THIS time, before it popped the car had started running VERY erratically.. hard to describe. Actually its not far from what my subaru is doing now.. (but it IS different) The reason was obvious.. the woodruff key, and its associated groove on the timing belt sprocket, had worn loose and buggered up the oil seal. So I went to the dealership and bought a new sprocket, woodruff key, and bolt, replaced the oil seal and timing belt AGAIN.

 

Fast forward four thousand miles.. the car started running rough again, just like it had before I did the woodruff key. My other brother did a little research on the internet (still kinda new to me, a school thing not a home thing yet at the time) and discovered that these isuzu engines have an issue where the crankshaft can just kinda start eating these things..

 

Fortunately, my '75 280Z-to-be showed up parked on my parents corner just then, for $300. SOLD!!! I'll take the timing chain, thank you very much!

 

My point was that yes, oil kills timing belts like I kill mosquitoes.. ruthlessly, and as fast as I can make contact. The pro-chain remark there at the end was more Datsun>Geo than anything else... I got to be a real professional at doing the T belt on that thing, though..

 

 

Thats funny, I had a 88 Mazda 323 with the same problem, only the crank pully would wobble and wobble and the keyway wore itself away, causing the pully to slip back from the wear and throwing off the ignition timing, i had to advance the distributor more and more and more to keep it running normal. My belt never did break tho, and the main seal leaked about a quart or 2 every 3-5 days. I took it apart and did the main and tried the locktite quick metal repair, i have no idea if it worked, the pully still wobbled but it kept time in the 4 months i had it after that and i sold it.

[sube92]

http://www.beltcorp.com/products/timing_belts/default.asp

 

This is great topic. I found old subes can take a 20mm wide belt and they don't have one. This website had more than one match after measuring out what would fit.. I never got farther than that, but could be a realistic pursuit.

The neoprene section especially.

 

I only broke one, and it was surely my fault.The typical driver side- it was 8 years old and over 60k on it. The book also states that 55ft lbs should be tension. Subaru by oem doesn't even come close to that, so reefing on tensioner is a good idea while tightening, its kinda tricky.

[blazelate]

i have a 1991 loyale ea82. its in the shop right now and the mechanic told me it needs a new timing chain. I thought he meant belt, but then he said my car had a timing chain. i saw something that looked like a timing chain sitting on top of my motor, which has the heads off. So, does my car have a belt or chain? is this mechanic pulling my chain?