CzarMohab Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 But I have a question about this "tick-of-death" I've heard about... in fact I have a lot of questions... I did do a forum search and came up with a lot of information, perhaps even great information... Its just too much for me to go through and sort and say, "this is exactly what I am experiencing," when what I am seeing doesn't even seem "normal" to me. If you've read any of my other posts you kinda know a bit of what I've already gone through, and maybe all the problems are interrelated and all I need is a weekend, some $$$ and a few Cold Ones. Enough babbling, on to the questions: What causes the ToD? What fixes the ToD? If I do have it, should I be worried? Should I be more worried that it starts, or that it stops after a while? When should I worry about it? Is it always a tick-tick-tick or could it sound like a tump-tump-tump or even ta-ta-ta? There may be more questions later... on to the symptoms: Tick-tick-tick starts usually on the road, after about 20-40 miles of driving for that trip. Usually goes away after 20-40 miles. Used to occur every 600-1000 miles, but after its "normal scheduled time" it happened again, yesterday, a mere 80 miles later. I had to drive 120 miles round trip, and I can tell you how it went: 0-20: Kitten 20-30: Quiet ticks 30-50: Kitten 50-60: Loud Traffic, hard to tell sounds, but no noticeable ticks. 60-62: Engine off coast down hill (I love Seattle for the hills) 62-70: Light traffic, Kitten 70-85: WORST TRAFFIC EVER, avg spd <10mph, LOUD ticks 85-90: No more traffic, quieter ticks. 90-120: Kitten Miles are approximate. Sounds like it is on the driver's side of the engine. Temp was med-low to low on the digital temp thingie the whole time. not sure I trust that that much... heater was warm though so I guess it wasn't that hot... anything else you need to know just let me know... Oooo... Not sure what oil is in it but it is due for an oil change in about 300 miles (she turns the big 150000!!) ... the book I have recommends 5 or 10w30, so would that make a difference if it was not either of those in there or if I used something else as a replacement oil? Thanks for your time! P.S. Is it bad that I spotted 6 other Subes because they were making the same sound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 My Loyale had TOD..but usually TOD is at start up and stops completely after 5-10 minutes...The cause is a stuck or worn HLA... hydrolic lash adjuster... another cause is the mickey mouse gasket on the oil pup sucks in one of the "ears"...then there is also a faulty oil pump....the fixes can be as simple as running some seafoam on the crank case and frequent oil changes until the system is cleaned out...also changing out that oil pump gasket ( make it a mandatory fix when changing timing belts ..along with the water pump)...then the worst case is having to replace the HLAs...I cant help you on that but many other members have done this easily...yours sounds like a more extreme case simce it is basically continuous. Just re read your post....change that oil and run some Marvels mystery oil or seafoam with fresh oil...you can also replace some ( about a quart) with ATF fluid...run it for a couple days then change it again...make sure you get a good filter to...I forget the brand..i am sure someone will chime in...many have had problems with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 ...Should I be more worried that it starts, or that it stops after a while? ... Well... Readin´ your Post, I Think that Your Subie has a Dyin´ Oil Pump. When Oil Pressure Raises up, ToD gone... but Also, if that sound has Too much time, maybe your Engine got a bad Hydro Lifter, that may need to be Replaced. I Suggest to Change your Engine´s Oil Pump. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northguy Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 Don't look at it as a bother. If you have the question, rest assured there are 10 more people out there with the same question. Asking questions and sharing answers is what this board is all about. But by the same token, you can use the search function to research the "tick of death" to see what has been discussed already. There might be information already in the archives that will help you solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffast Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 Just re read your post....change that oil and run some Marvels mystery oil or seafoam with fresh oil...you can also replace some ( about a quart) with ATF fluid...run it for a couple days then change it again...make sure you get a good filter to...I forget the brand..i am sure someone will chime in...many have had problems with +1 on the marvel mystery oil and don't use fram filters they suck, use purlator filters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 Please feel free to ask away, thats what we are here for. If your car has over 100,000 miles it wouldnt be bad to replace the oil pump. After all that is the heart of the engine, and it sounds like yours is very worn. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 The short version is: the HLAs tick when they are not functioning properly; either not filling up with oil pressure as they should, or they are stuck in one position. You CAN get this TOD simply by being a quart or two low on oil; so always check oil level first. The longer version: A: Not Functioning properly Over time they DO get old; and develop a tendency towards ticking long before they are dead. There is a check ball inside of them that allows oil pressure in, but does not allow it out (until the engine cools, someone please correct me on exactly what lets the oil pressure out) This check ball can get a little bit of crud stuck in it, which is the thinking behind the Marvel Mystery Oil, Seafoam, or ATF in your oil. These either ARE or CONATIN detergents and solvents that help clean gunk out of every nook and cranny of your engine.. and the HLAs are one of those "nooks." They CAN also be worn to the point of needing to be replaced. This occurs mostly in an engine that has blown headgaskets in the past, and gotten water into the crankcase; or some other similar type of major engine problems causing an overhaul. Generally speaking, "dead" HLAs don't go back and forth, they tick loudly all the time and no amount of seafoam or whatever makes them stop. you CAN get away with just replacing the faulty ones, but chances are that they went south for a reason; Apparently they are NOT incredibly expensive. NOW, for B: Low oil pressure also causes them to tick aggravatingly, and no amount of seafoam will make them stop. However, generally in this situation, the tick varies in sound with RPM and can go away or come back seemingly at random... until you start analyzing the driving and engine conditions under which the noise comes and goes. There is a seal that loyale 2.7 Turbo mentioned in the oil pump that can very easily go bad, collapsing on itself and obstructing the output passageway of the oil pump. The pump seals themselves also go bad, and sometimes the pumps simply need to be replaced rather than re sealed. Our oil pressure gauges are worth dog snot, so unless you have a reliable, mechanical oil pressure gauge you cannot really rule this possibility out. Oil pump repair is NOT a difficult job. I think I have touched on most of the important bits; anyone who would like to chime in to expand or correct the information I have laid out here, feel free. MOST of it is more or less hearsay on my part, but we have ALL experienced the TOD in one of its manifestations. Fellow members, lets try to keep superfluous responses to this thread to a minimum; Good information and tips is one thing, but lets not let it get too off base.... Mods, I think this thread would make an EXCELLENT sticky or USRM post for TOD; we REALLY REALLY need one so that we can just point to a good, thorough discussion anytime it comes up. TOD is discussed SO often that searching (as our friend here discovered) is a VERY daunting task before you can really find good information about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 Every Subaru I've ever owned has had some degree of the tick.(even the Legacy 2.2) Some just at cold start or when due for an oil change. Others had it perpetualy and needed seals or a new pump. And even then still a few have ticked needing new HLA's. BUT in light of that, the tick has never caused any other problems in and of itself, and even a persistant ticker can still be a reliable car. Just do really regular oil changes. Change the seals or even the whole pump next time you do the timing belts. I would run a little heavier oil, 10w40. If it is being caused by drastically low oil pressure, that would be the only time I would consider it really serious. Otherwise take care of it when it's time to do other service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 well since your oil is due for change run a can of sea foam in the oil or even some ATF (about 8 oz) the loosen all the gunk and then change the oil within that 300 miles a dirty filter will affect oil pressure, when my camper got so overdue for oil change the oil pressure was down by half at idle and a third at higway. i changed the oil and the pressure was better it idle than it cruising! wnen you treat the engine oil give the car a few higher rpms, at least 4500-5500 revs and hold it there for about 20 seconds or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joostvdw Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 HLA's arent' expensive! in fact, they are dirt cheap, like $5 per lifter, don't know the name of the company selling them, but someone is bound to show up with the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 HLA's arent' expensive! in fact, they are dirt cheap, like $5 per lifter, don't know the name of the company selling them, but someone is bound to show up with the link My initial post edited.. I will say again, this thread would make an EXCELLENT candidate for a TOD sticky.. Anyone Agree?? The original post was cogent, and well informed, and he asked excellent questions. If we can get enough posts here including ANY and all relevant information, it would be to the benefit of us all to keep this on file somewhere. If all else fails I intend on bookmarking it for future reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keppelk Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 The name of the company that sells the replacement HLAs is Mizpah Precision Mfg. Inc. Their website is http://www.mizpahprecision.com/. They are dirt cheap and are even cheaper if you return your core to them. The common problem with the so called Mickey Mouse gasket is that the inlet 'ear' of the gasket is sucked into the inlet passage. This allows air into the pumps inlet side leading to small bubbles in the oil. There is a pic of the damaged gasket here as well as other useful info about the TOD. There is an excellent thread at XT6.net that talks about the oil pump reseal (thanks Grossgary for the excellent writeup). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CzarMohab Posted April 28, 2007 Author Share Posted April 28, 2007 Ok so basically: add "magic scrubbing engine bubbles", drive 300 miles, change oil. Use a new purolator filter. Change seals & clean/inspect/replace HLAs and pump @ next timing belt. Did I get this right so far? To answer any questions you might have, It doesn't burn oil, leak oil, or even smell like oil. Oil's full. If I did change the oil to a 10w40 instead of the books' 5 or 10w30, what can I expect from the car performance wise? Better/worse MPG? Easy/rough starts? No noticeable difference? Are there any other recommendations for a replacement filter? I don't have a super big budget at the moment and the purolator filter is currently as expensive as a full oil change with filter at a local mechanic. And could someone tell me why they thought putting the oil filter that close to the exhaust pipe was such a great idea? Thanks again for your time, all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 And could someone tell me why they thought putting the oil filter that close to the exhaust pipe was such a great idea? Mechanics need to make money. I dont like the idea of the scrubbing bubbles scrubbing for 300 miles, follow the directions on the can. If you cant afford a pureone filter, use a std purolator filter. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 If the oem filter or a purolator is not available, my next choice is WIX. Basically, ANYTHING BUT FRAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Mechanics need to make money. I dont like the idea of the scrubbing bubbles scrubbing for 300 miles, follow the directions on the can. If you cant afford a pureone filter, use a std purolator filter. nipper Hmmm.. *I* left seafoam in my crankcase for about 3000 miles.. a full oil change cycle. I couldnt find any info here to contradict that with sea foam.. (people say change the ATF after a little while, but not seafoam or MMO) and the can certainly didnt say to drain the oil shortly thereafter. This WAS only about two thousand miles ago, so my experience is NOT something to act upon, yet... EDIT I didnt really MEAN to contradict what nipper said; I was mentioning what *I* did and was halfway fishing for someone to go and tell me I was a bad boy. However, there are as many opinions on THAT subject as there are on the T-belt cover subject.. ALOT of people quite plain and simply will NOT put ANYTHING but oil into their crankcase, and I cannot say anything against that policy.. beyond saying that I am not that worried about doing it myself. In my opinion, their apprehension is PERFECTLY valid; I do this being EXTREMELY aware of what I am doing, and I keep it in myind every time I hear my engine make a funny noise. END EDIT +1 on "anything but fram" When you get ready to do timing belts, water pump, etc, its usually best to do the oil pump reseal at that point. If you go through the "scrubbing bubbles" and your TOD doesn't go away, then may as well save up for a bit and get ready to do.. water pump, oil pump reseal, front engine oil seals, timing belts, and regrease or replace the bearings in your timing belt tensioner sand idlers... That ought to have your soob good for another 100K or so. There is a wicked nasty debate that never ends regarding leaving the timing belt covers off, or putting them back on.. the short of it is, safest way is to drill out the stupid bolt thingies that hold them in and use zip ties to re attach it. However, leaving them off makes it SUPER easy to re tension them after 20K, which is SOP, and it also makes inspection a breeze any time. If you dont wanna bother with the crank and cam seals, no one will shoot you. Personally, I had to put T belts on the car when I got it free from my brother, and i had no $$ for the seals or the pump.. the water pump blew out about 20K later, and I had to do it all over again, still never resealed the oil pump, and still havent replaced the oil seals.. BUT, I'm guessing you are well aware of the way that sorta job SHOULD go (ie, do it all at once to save time later) Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Timing belt covers ... if the car is going to see deep mud or snow, you should have them. Otherwise to each their own. People have hed belts thrown by packed snow. Still not thrilled with the idea of any cleaner being in an engine that long. :-p nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted April 29, 2007 Share Posted April 29, 2007 Are there any other recommendations for a replacement filter? I don't have a super big budget at the moment and the purolator filter is currently as expensive as a full oil change with filter at a local mechanic. Thanks again for your time, all! napa 1361 gold, silver 21361, wix 51361 napa and wix are the same napa in-house oil is rebadged valvoline you can crossreference a ford 5,0 filter that will fit on the ea81/ea81 oil pump i have one in my camper, a toyota as far as replacing the hla do the seafom first and see what that does. also another reason for ticking is the o-ring on the oil pump gets sucked in. you can use a dab of silicone to hold the seal in place when you install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 ... Basically, ANYTHING BUT FRAM. ... +1 on "anything but fram" ... Well... me Too. Absolutely. Sometime ago, I Didn´t found anythin´ else but Fram for my EA82 Wagon, and 20 Minutes after the Oil Change, my dad and I heard a Loud "POP!" sound, followed by a droppin´ sound... :-\ ...it was the oil filter, being ejected by the Engine! droppin´ out... Dad said it was due the Lower Raise of the Fram filter´s Thread... it just took two turns or less at the oil pump´s Base... ...So, Thanks to God I did Shut off the Car inmediately... so Engine didn´t got any Damage, but that did wasted almost all the Gallon of brand new 20W-50 Motul Minerally oil... So, Anythin´ but Fram. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Well... me Too. Absolutely. Sometime ago, I Didn´t found anythin´ else but Fram for my EA82 Wagon, and 20 Minutes after the Oil Change, my dad and I heard a Loud "POP!" sound, followed by a droppin´ sound... :-\ ...it was the oil filter, being ejected by the Engine! droppin´ out... Dad said it was due the Lower Raise of the Fram filter´s Thread... it just took two turns or less at the oil pump´s Base... ...So, Thanks to God I did Shut off the Car inmediately... so Engine didn´t got any Damage, but that did wasted almost all the Gallon of brand new 20W-50 Motul Minerally oil... So, Anythin´ but Fram. THAT was a GREAT story!!! I have never heard anything like that before, good job catching it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 If I did change the oil to a 10w40 instead of the books' 5 or 10w30, what can I expect from the car performance wise? Better/worse MPG? Easy/rough starts? No noticeable difference? i have only used 5W30 in my Subie once, and only once - the oil pressure was ridiculously low & caused the TOD and it came out after only about 300 miles on it. My normal oil is 10W40. the only time i get TOD these days is if the oil level gets a low, or i go way beyond my normal oil change interval (BAD heartless! ) I put around 100 miles a day on my car & get around 32-33 MPG average (have gotten as high as 35.5 on one fill up) - and I don't baby it either. now keep in mind this is with an 89 GL wagon, 5 spd, FWD that has 254,000 miles on the clock - your mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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