half_dingo Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 recently became the proud owner of a 91' loyale wagon w/ auto trans. its got 164k and the past few days has developed a intermittent hesitation. ive changed the fuel filter and used some heet just in case water was in the gas-also using 93 octane. this actually happened the first time i drove the car with the previous owner (a couple months ago) but he said it was probably just some bad gas and i filled up the car w/ high test and the hesitation went away- that is until a few days ago. i became suspicious of the airflow/temp sensor so i took the entire air intake off and discovered alot of oil inside. not sure if this is normal on a high mileage sube or i have a car with some serious blow by issues. upon removing the mass airflow sensor i observed it to be filthy dirty so i sprayed it good with brake cleaner and the two resistors went from black to white. first this was all i done and then reinstalled it and went for a ride. the first seven or so minutes had me convinced that the problem was resolved since it was running better than ever- but as i was heading back home it returned with a vengeance. so... now i cleaned the entire air intake with degreaser and brake cleaner to get all the oil out of there and then cleaned the sensor again. once again i left in hopes the problem would be solved but the hesitation began just a couple minutes into the ride. also tested it with no air filter with the same results and made sure the plugs were all connected snugly. now im not so sure that brake cleaner was the best thing to use on the sensor. so do any of you wise sube veterans have any ideas what could resolve this issue? im going to get a multi meter tomorrow and do some voltage tests to see if the sensor is working properly. just wondering if someone tell me if im on the right track or not. also do you have to remove the engine to replace the timing belts? the engine compartment is a mechanics dream i think. plenty of room and not too hard to figure out whats going on. so it would be nice to take care of this because i love everything else about the car. thanks in advance for any advice! peace:Flame: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchsub Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Where is the oil coming from? Just cleaning it isnt going to get rid of your problem if you didnt stop the source. Look around your intake and find out where the oil is coming in from. Chances are its a clogged PCV system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
half_dingo Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 Where is the oil coming from? Just cleaning it isnt going to get rid of your problem if you didnt stop the source. Look around your intake and find out where the oil is coming in from. Chances are its a clogged PCV system. well its kinda funny with the particular car it seems to have been leaking (or should i say seeping) oil for some time as oil droplets abound on the undersideof the chassis. but strangely when i check the oil from my first oil change in it and some 500 miles later and not low at all on the stick. but i plan on fixing these oil issues but this internal accumulation of oil could have taken place over 50k miles- you never know. since i have no idea of when the timing belts have been changed that is next on my list and will change the valve cover gaskets then. do these type of flat four engines leak worse than a v type of engine since the valve cover gasket is constantly saturated with oil? i can only guess its long overdue to replace alot of stuff on this car since it still has what looks like the original plugs (which by the way were dry and just had some firing wear on the tip) and wires. the belts also could use to be changed since their is some very noticeable age on them. so to answer your question their is a fine layer of oil on the entire underside of the cars engine and all the cross members and such. guess ill have to eventually clean it all up to see where the oil starts coming from. but really thats just the thing. in the last month it hasnt used or leaked any that i can tell on the stick. the air filter wasnt oily of anyone was thinking that. it really just kinda looked like over the years this had built up some how. i hope anyway. im really interested in seeing if i bought a car with a trashed engine. although the car has decent power for what it is. i might pick up a compression tester with that meter tomorrow. knowing my luck brake cleaner ruins air flow sensors. will replace it if the volt meter dosent change when air is blown into the air intake. damn- guess i need a hair dryer now with a cool setting. again, thanks for any ideas anyone might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchsub Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 These engines are notorious for leaking obscene amounts of oil from everywhere. The EA82 are at youngest 14 years old, at oldest 22 years old. Seals dry out. I was more curious how you were getting oil in your intake rather than if your motor was coated in the stuff or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Simpler way to check the MAF-- un do the four screws that hold it to the intake housing so you can just blow on the two hotwires. http://www.ch601.org/engines.html go there and dowload the two chunks of the 89 FSM. very very helpful. Now, regarding your poor running condition.. whew. I am no guru; but I have read alot and like to try to pass things on as much as possible. For starters, brake cleaner on the MAF should NOT have harmed it at all.. it isnt precisely IDEAL but it should be OK, or if it isn't then it was bad before you did it. (i am assuming you do NOT have a check engine light on) Our cars have a wonderful little onboard diagnostic system. There are two green plugs probably at the extreme rear driver's side of the engine bay; when you connect those, start the engine, and rev it over 2K for 30 seconds, the CEL comes on and a small LED on the ECU starts blinking with any codes that the diagnostic may have picked up. The FSM outlines the procedure in detail; there is also a "read memory" connector for checking codes thrown by CEL in the past. Anyhow, the green plug diagnostic is referred to as "d-check." You need to run a D-check and see what codes it gives you. If your problem is being caused by something in the FI/ignition system, it should throw a code. There is a write up in the USRM (go to the top of the page, click "USRM" in the top right corner) that is simpler, written in more down to earth language.. sometimes its easiest to read both the USRM version and the FSM version to make sure you are doing it right. A suggestion: Pop your distributor cap off and see if there is a screw on the back side of the rotor. Some have them, some do not; if your rotor has a screwhole, and no screw.. ha-HA!!! we have found your problem. very very common. timing belts can be done in the car, piece of cake. Wisdom suggest resealing or replacing the oil pump (as well as water pump and standard cam/crank oil seals) when you replace the T-belts.. and if the tensioner and ilder bearings arent silky-smooth, replace them. You CAN just press the bearings out and source new ones, it isnt difficult from what I gather. (bearings is bearings, and theyre cheaper than new idlers.) Regarding the oil in the intake (that IS what this thread was about, right? ) you likely have a bad PCV valve; never hurts to replace it. as far as the oil.. dude, SERIOUSLY??? subarus as a RULE do NOT LEAK OIL. NEVER. :lol: :lol: just kidding, get used to it. Buy some gunk, clean her up and try to pinpoint it. Seriously, barring any overheating issues, these engines will last 400-500,000 miles. THAT being said, next time she gets warmed up, touch the entire surface of the radiator, one handprint at a time. If you find any cool areas, thats indicative of a clogged spot; if you find much at all, replace the radiator before you somehow overheat and blow your headgasket. A new OEM only thermostat would be prudent as well.. cheap insurance. New sparks, cap, rotor and wires may well go a long ways in reducing your hesitation. Check everything out and report back! Hope this helped, and good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvexplorer Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 The brake cleaner shouldn't have ruined the MAF. I used brake cleaner on mine probably a month or more ago and its still doing fine. When my 93 Loyale is cold it will hesitate until the RPM's are above 3000 and then it does just fine. I've heard that replacing the O2 sensor helped greatly with the hesitation. The oil in the intake is most likely coming from your PCV system. Its not hard to check it or replace the valve. I forget offhand where it is exactly, but it screws into the intake somewhere and has a tube coming out of it that T's to the valve cover areas. You might also want to check the Throttle position sensor. I've heard of them going bad from time to time. Welcome to the board! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill90Loyale Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Keep focusing on the engine performance issues. No need to run that expensive high test gasoline. Does fine on 87. When you resolve the performance issues, you can turn your attention to the gaskets. Replacing both valve cover gaskets and the oil pan gasket will get things cleaned up nicely. I bought mine with 98K on the clock. Now it has 224K. I put on a new cap and rotor (disributor), plug and high tension wires (magencor), and I'm running an Accel coil (some have had bad luck with these - I haven't). Do new timing belts unless you know the milage on your current ones (a TB break will leave you at the side of the road). When you're doing that, you might consider a new water pump. Oil pumps don't generally fail, but the o'rings get crunchy and lead to ticking of the lash adjusters. Keep at it. The first couple years are all about getting it back to reliable. Then, with a little luck, you're good for another 100K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
half_dingo Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 hey thanks for all the good advice! i will have to go through all your recommendations and do what i can. will definitely replace the pcv valve today and check that airflow sensor's voltage readings. i do appreciate the quick responses. you guys seems to have a great forum here AND knowledgeable mechanics. i look forward to whipping this ride in shape with all your help. thanks for the advice and will let you know whats going on with the subester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemaker13 Posted May 2, 2007 Share Posted May 2, 2007 Welcome! Yeah yeah, you're on the right track. Been on the right track ever since you picked up the soob! Don't worry 'bout oil leaks, especially if you're not going thru much at all. The hesitation, or subaru stumble, is common enuff. You'll get it tuned up, mine still does it after a year of owning it. I have heard about a failing fuel pump, but mine hasn't failed yet. Your loyale is auto? Is it 4x4? SUBARUS ROCK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
half_dingo Posted May 2, 2007 Author Share Posted May 2, 2007 Welcome! Yeah yeah, you're on the right track. Been on the right track ever since you picked up the soob! Don't worry 'bout oil leaks, especially if you're not going thru much at all. The hesitation, or subaru stumble, is common enuff. You'll get it tuned up, mine still does it after a year of owning it. I have heard about a failing fuel pump, but mine hasn't failed yet. Your loyale is auto? Is it 4x4? SUBARUS ROCK! yeah, its automatic and push button 4X4. that kinda makes it tough finding another one. my plan is having two cars identical (well maybe not the same year) so i can always have one running. im thinking about moving to costa rica in a couple years so i think this method would work well. i doubt if anyone would want to steal em and being more self sufficient in central america might save my life. more info to come after this afternoon... Pura Vida! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
half_dingo Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 yo, the problem looks like it began with a deteriorating hose going to the pcv valve. i guess some of these little pieces of rubber got caught inside the valve. cleaned the MAF sensor again (this time with some actual MAF sensor cleaning spray) and replaced the old pcv valve. tried to get every bit of dry rotted hose i could bang out of there (until i can get a replacement) and put everything back together. took it for a test drive and it ran like a new one (except for the exhaust leak). THanKs!!! now that the car is running good i think ill go ahead and change both the timing belts and the alternator/ac belts too. also going to replace the exhaust manifold and valve cover gaskets. and of course plugs/wires/cap and button. i am definitely going to remove the radiators and would like to flush em out. any wise words before i get involved in all that? live long and prosper, and may the soob be with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Where in NC are you, Mr Spock? I lived in N Wilkesboro when I was knee high to a grasshopper... hundred year old farmhouse, 40 acres, mountain out back, creek runnin thru the property, the whole bit. My dad got fed up watching his hometown (WPB, FL) being paved over, so we did the whole "Funny Farm" thing.... I would HIGHLY recommend replacing the water pump while youre doing the T-belts.. I didn't, and I regretted it about 10K later.. blew a radiator hose, then a water pump, then headgaskets.. in that order. You might want to flush the heater core while youve got the whole cooling system in pieces, and if you have no T-stat in at the time may as well use the garden hose to power flush the block, too.. although I don't know how effective this block flush might actually BE, I don't think it can hurt anything at least? (Someone please correct me if I am wrong; I know I did it on mine) Flush the heater core first one way, then the other... It may even be beneficial to run some sort of block flush solution through a heat cycle before draining, in car flushing again, and then disassembling.. but I am getting to extremes here. Feel free to do all, some, or none of what I suggest regarding flushing things out.. just ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatchsub Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Also while your in there replacing the belts you should probably reseal or replace your oil pump. If its original with 250k on it then def replace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psylosyfer Posted May 6, 2007 Share Posted May 6, 2007 well its kinda funny with the particular car it seems to have been leaking (or should i say seeping) oil for some time as oil droplets abound on the undersideof the chassis. but strangely when i check the oil from my first oil change in it and some 500 miles later and not low at all on the stick. but i plan on fixing these oil issues but this internal accumulation of oil could have taken place over 50k miles- you never know. since i have no idea of when the timing belts have been changed that is next on my list and will change the valve cover gaskets then. do these type of flat four engines leak worse than a v type of engine since the valve cover gasket is constantly saturated with oil? i can only guess its long overdue to replace alot of stuff on this car since it still has what looks like the original plugs (which by the way were dry and just had some firing wear on the tip) and wires. the belts also could use to be changed since their is some very noticeable age on them. so to answer your question their is a fine layer of oil on the entire underside of the cars engine and all the cross members and such. guess ill have to eventually clean it all up to see where the oil starts coming from. but really thats just the thing. in the last month it hasnt used or leaked any that i can tell on the stick. the air filter wasnt oily of anyone was thinking that. it really just kinda looked like over the years this had built up some how. i hope anyway. im really interested in seeing if i bought a car with a trashed engine. although the car has decent power for what it is. i might pick up a compression tester with that meter tomorrow. knowing my luck brake cleaner ruins air flow sensors. will replace it if the volt meter dosent change when air is blown into the air intake. damn- guess i need a hair dryer now with a cool setting. again, thanks for any ideas anyone might have. I use hi-temp RTV on my covers and a gasket,No leaks As for the oil in the intake, I agree that it sounds like a clogged PCV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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