Caboobaroo Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 So today, I found out my gas gauge isn't the most accurate. I got some gas in it and drove it home, well almost. I was ALMOST home (like a block away) and the car all of a sudden sputtered and died. WTF? Let it sit for a couple minutes and it started back up. I could rev it to about 3k and then it sputtered and died again. If I tried to start it up right away, it would just crank. If I let it sit for a couple minutes then it would start but only rev to 3k and then sputter and die. What is the deal? Its been running awesome since I got it back together. Could I have sucked something up off of the bottom of the tank and now its stuck in the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrKrazy Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Could I have sucked something up off of the bottom of the tank and now its stuck in the line? Filter hopefully, these are old cars bound to have some junk in the bottom of the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Filter hopefully, these are old cars bound to have some junk in the bottom of the tank. well crappy thing is that the filter is new.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 Sounds a lot like the fuel strainer in the tank is plugged.Some dirt falls off after a while and allows it to run a bit more.Try the main filter first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 Sounds a lot like the fuel strainer in the tank is plugged.Some dirt falls off after a while and allows it to run a bit more.Try the main filter first. this is what I'm thinking. I'll wait till tomorrow and see if I can get it back to work and I'll have to remember to keep gas in it and hopefully not have anymore problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 well I got it to my house. I let it sit for a couple hours and it seemed to start right up and make it home without any issues. I think there's sediment in my tank and I sucked it up onto the strainer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 That is what was causing some of my XT6s stalling problem...the little yellow " Hey dummy you need to put some gas in me" light doesnt work anymore and every time I run it that low it will stall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 well I started it up and drove it to the gas station this morning. Got to work, parked it and then left a few hours later. Got home. Parked it for a few minutes, started it back up and drove it around to the back of my house. Went to start it again a few minutes later and no start.... Let it sit for a half hour, came back home and it started right up. WTF?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted May 3, 2007 Share Posted May 3, 2007 You *do* know how easy it is to clamp the tank-to-pump line shut, pull the pump, and check the strainer in the inlet, right? have you checked that yet? do you have a pressure gauge you can splice onto the engine and leave it there for a couple days or so? one in the cabin would be nicer, but more difficult to set up.. if theres on resting under the hood then you can just eyeball it when youre having someone else crank it during a stall/no start episode... it sounds more like a fuel flow problem (ie filter, pickup screen, clogged line maybe even) than a pressure problem. if the fuel supply checks out, next thing I would examine would be the spark, from coil through disty rotor, cap, wires and plugs... maybe somehow theres a wire thats shorting when its warm.... I HATE to make a vague statement like that, but im just throwing ideas at you. Or, you could try unplugging your O2 sensor next time you have a stall/no start... i can't imagine any way that the sensor would fail, by indicating a false RICH mixture.. but brainstorm and find ways the ECU would want to lean the mixture out. It could be a bad TPS that only shows when warm.... I dont think a CTS issue would behave like this, but you never know... and check the Idle Air control to make sure its not sticking open somehow.. If all that fails, run a good compression check when the engine is warm.. you never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 3, 2007 Author Share Posted May 3, 2007 well talking with a board member via AIM, he says a guy that he works with has an EA82 SPFI which is behaving just like mine. Says he pulled an EGR code so I'm gonna go ahead and pull the trouble codes on mine if there are any. What would the EGR have to do with it? Sticking? I'm at a loss. I'm gonna check fuel pressure and blow the lines out in the next couple days when I get time. Also, how do you check the strainer? I was gonna pull the access plate off of the cargo area floor and check out my sending unit as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted May 4, 2007 Share Posted May 4, 2007 take a big vise grip, and two pieces of wood.. use the vise grip to pinch the pieces of wood onto the line between the gas tank and the fuel pump.. unbolt the fuel pump shelf, remove the supply hose and the outlet hose from the pump. The pickup screen is inside the inlet nipple of the pump; sunlight is the easiest way to look in there but any good light source will work. The front porch light at night is NOT adequate, ask me how I know. Any method you can find of pinching the supply hose shut will do; thats just how I do it. Good luck with the bolts holding the fuel pump shelf on there; mine were fine on the soob but its a notorious place for rusty bolts. (FYI, as bad as the rust on my car is, those bolts came out like butter..very clean undercarriage, nasty cancerous body. salt in the air, not on the roads.) Pulling trouble codes never hurt anyone, but I doubt the EGR would cause a problem like this.. Check the valve, though; it cant hurt and its easy. Two bolts and one vacuum line, and it comes off. If it moves freely, and responds to you sucking on the vacuum inlet, then its probably fine. It is supposed to open up when you hit the throttle; you CAN see it moving when its installed and the engine is running but it isn't always easy. Read the FSM on how to clean it; you don't want to get any solvents in the wrong part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 7, 2007 Author Share Posted May 7, 2007 Ok well I decided it is definatly a warm start issue, probably having to do with the CTS. I let it idle for like 10 minutes today since it sat for a day. Then drove it around and it seemed fine. Did a couple 5k shifts with it, had no problems. Went to hang out with some friends and it sat for like 10 minutes. Got in it and no start. Let it sit for an hour and it was fine. When I parked it at my buddy's place, it was at normal operating temp and was still warm when I went to start it 10 minutes later. After sitting for an hour to the point where it had cooled off, it started up like nothing was wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshoup Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 That'll make for a long trip to Washington if you have to stop periodically to let it cool down for an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 7, 2007 Author Share Posted May 7, 2007 That'll make for a long trip to Washington if you have to stop periodically to let it cool down for an hour. yeah but its fine when its running. It'll only do it when its warm and I try to start it. So stopping for gas will be an hour long experience:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffast Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 yeah but its fine when its running. It'll only do it when its warm and I try to start it. So stopping for gas will be an hour long experience:lol: or you could take a leak evrey two-three stops and leave the car running while filling it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Next time it does it, try cycling the key from of to run a few times. That should kick the fuel pump over a few times, and then try to crank it over. If it fires right up, the regulator or the fuel pump check valve are leaking down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 7, 2007 Author Share Posted May 7, 2007 Next time it does it, try cycling the key from of to run a few times. That should kick the fuel pump over a few times, and then try to crank it over. If it fires right up, the regulator or the fuel pump check valve are leaking down. I done tried that already. I also plugged my green connectors together to cycle the fuel pump and tried firing it up like that too. Maybe I'll let the service department at the dealership fix it for me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 You don't have a spare distributor and ignitor that you could put in do you? It sounds like a heatsoak issue, which could show up while you're doing your long drive west. If the ignition system was heating up and becoming weak, the spark may be good enough to run, but cause hard starting. Does it cough and choke at all when you're cranking it over, or just solidy dead? Pop off the rubber intake duct and throw some gas straight down the throttle body. If it fires right up, then it's a fuel issue. if it doesn't, ignition. This is always my first diagnostic procedure on beater cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 7, 2007 Share Posted May 7, 2007 Pop off the rubber intake duct and throw some gas straight down the throttle body. If it fires right up, then it's a fuel issue. if it doesn't, ignition. This is always my first diagnostic procedure on beater cars. If you do this, and have a timing issue or for some other reason the car backfires, you will fry the Hotwire on you're MAF. That is a trick left over from the days of carbeurators, and should be used only on Carbed cars. There are better ways to diagnos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 7, 2007 Author Share Posted May 7, 2007 wel I sprayed a couple shots of starting fluid into the intake boot and it started up, then slowly dropped in rpms until it died. I also want to say its either a heatsoak issue with the fuel pump or the fuel pump is going out. Either way, I've got no time to screw around with it so I'm gonna have the mechanics at work mess with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 If you do this, and have a timing issue or for some other reason the car backfires, you will fry the Hotwire on you're MAF. That is a trick left over from the days of carbeurators, and should be used only on Carbed cars. There are better ways to diagnose True, but flooding the car could lead to the same results, so it's not that big of a deal. The SPFI system already has raw fuel sprayed all over the intake in normal operation. You have to be reasonable with it too, not a cup of gas, just a tablespoon full. It's much preferable to giving it shots of starting fluid (ether) down the intake, which has a way greater chance of screwing the whole engine than just the MAF. I've shattered a piston using ether. Which sucked because it was an antique engine. Anyway... Doing quick checks like this can narrow an issue down a lot quicker than doing it the right way, and using all sorts of diagnostic equipment. Since russ said that it fired right up on ether (ouch) then died out, it's definiately a fuel delivery issue. Since it only does it on warm starts, it would tend to be a heatsoak issue, where a componant gets warm and ceces to function properly. It seems unlikely that the CTS would be doing this, as that usualy fails so that the PCM will not richen the mixture up for starting a cold engine. The car isn't flooding either, so it's not reading cold. The fuel pump.. mabe but why wouldn't it fail while the car was running? Especially since it works well enough to keep the engine fed during full load 5k rpm pulls. Can you hear it cycling on and off when the diagnostic connectors are togher? If you can't hear it cycling, mabe the fuel pump relay is warming up, and when it's switched off, the relay won't make proper contact when it's switched on again untill it cools off. Even so, if the fuel pump works right up untill shutoff, there should be engough pressure left in the system so that the car would initally fire, then die out on restart. The other thing is the injector. If it normally has cooling fuel flowing around it, it may work. When you shut it off, the heat from the coolant in the throtlle body would heat the fuel and the injector, possibly enough so that the injector would have an open circuit untill it cooled off again. Why wouldn't that throw a CEL though? The PCM could be a culprit too. But like the fuel pump, you would expect it to fail while operating. I've got a pile of SPFI stuff kicking around, so I just throw parts at these old systems untill they work. Are the guys at the dealership going to charge you for fixing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 8, 2007 Author Share Posted May 8, 2007 True, but flooding the car could lead to the same results, so it's not that big of a deal. The SPFI system already has raw fuel sprayed all over the intake in normal operation. You have to be reasonable with it too, not a cup of gas, just a tablespoon full. It's much preferable to giving it shots of starting fluid (ether) down the intake, which has a way greater chance of screwing the whole engine than just the MAF. I've shattered a piston using ether. Which sucked because it was an antique engine. Anyway... Doing quick checks like this can narrow an issue down a lot quicker than doing it the right way, and using all sorts of diagnostic equipment. Since russ said that it fired right up on ether (ouch) then died out, it's definiately a fuel delivery issue. Since it only does it on warm starts, it would tend to be a heatsoak issue, where a componant gets warm and ceces to function properly. It seems unlikely that the CTS would be doing this, as that usualy fails so that the PCM will not richen the mixture up for starting a cold engine. The car isn't flooding either, so it's not reading cold. The fuel pump.. mabe but why wouldn't it fail while the car was running? Especially since it works well enough to keep the engine fed during full load 5k rpm pulls. Can you hear it cycling on and off when the diagnostic connectors are togher? If you can't hear it cycling, mabe the fuel pump relay is warming up, and when it's switched off, the relay won't make proper contact when it's switched on again untill it cools off. Even so, if the fuel pump works right up untill shutoff, there should be engough pressure left in the system so that the car would initally fire, then die out on restart. The other thing is the injector. If it normally has cooling fuel flowing around it, it may work. When you shut it off, the heat from the coolant in the throtlle body would heat the fuel and the injector, possibly enough so that the injector would have an open circuit untill it cooled off again. Why wouldn't that throw a CEL though? The PCM could be a culprit too. But like the fuel pump, you would expect it to fail while operating. I've got a pile of SPFI stuff kicking around, so I just throw parts at these old systems untill they work. Are the guys at the dealership going to charge you for fixing it? The fuel pump cycles with the diagnostic connectors connected. I'm just out of time to fix it myself. Yes they are going to charge me but since I'm an employee, I get a mucho discount, and one of the techs that I talk to on a regular basis, worked at an import auto place in town which he worked on Subarus all the time. Unless I paint his hood for him, then maybe he'll do it for free:-p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted May 8, 2007 Author Share Posted May 8, 2007 So its in line for service tomorrow but I got a little bit more info on my issue. I put a pressure gauge on the fuel line just after the filter. Ran fine until I got it into the shop, which is when I put the gauge on, then after it ran for a couple minutes, it sputtered and died. Plugged the green connectors in and cycled the fuel pump like it should. Fuel pressure was not very happy looking. While the fuel pump ran, it was at 24psi, when stopped it automatically dropped to 16~18psi. When cycled, it jumped back up to 24psi, then back to 16psi.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 True, but flooding the car could lead to the same results, so it's not that big of a deal. The SPFI system already has raw fuel sprayed all over the intake in normal operation. You have to be reasonable with it too, not a cup of gas, just a tablespoon full. It's much preferable to giving it shots of starting fluid (ether) down the intake, which has a way greater chance of screwing the whole engine than just the MAF. I've shattered a piston using ether. Which sucked because it was an antique engine. Anyway... Doing quick checks like this can narrow an issue down a lot quicker than doing it the right way, and using all sorts of diagnostic equipment. I almost can't believe this is you're advice. First, how would you flood a FI car? There is no accelerator pump so you can't pump in too much gas. Opening the throttle does only that, opens the valve for air. The computer sprays the fuel. and it is not supposed to ever flood, and if it did it could produce the same MAF frying result. I did it once. When I was 18 and thought I knew everything about working on cars. In the SPFI system, Fuel is not sprayed "all over the place" it is sprayed directly down the intake and is a difused mist not a dump of liquid that can splash back up. Doing "quick checks" like this can cause alot more harm. You really advocate NOT doing proper diagnosis? I know Cab doesn't that's why he got a fuel pressure gauge. The PCM could be a culprit too. But like the fuel pump, you would expect it to fail while operating. I've got a pile of SPFI stuff kicking around, so I just throw parts at these old systems untill they work. That is not diagnosing or fixing, that is guessing. Throwing parts at something is the worst way to try to fix a car cause in the end you may not have actually *solved* the problem even if it goes away. You have to identify it first. With all that said, please let me say I am not trying to insult anyone, I just highly disagree with this methodology. Cab you are on the right track. I am guessing a fuel pressure regulator. I wouldn't rule out the CTS yet either though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 With all that said, please let me say I am not trying to insult anyone, I just highly disagree with this methodology. Hey, 91loyale.. please try to focus on this part at least as much as the rest of his post... Just tryin to do my part to keep the tempers from flaring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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