Some questions about air conditioning

[stickedy]

I'm currently working on my car (1989 GL-10 would it be in the US) to install every possible goodie (trip computer, digital dash, things like that). I have already air suspension, diff lock and the other things are in work or already bought.

 

So, my attention switched to the air conditioning. Sadly, a/c wasn't popular in Germany untill about 10 years ago. So, there aren't many cars with a/c older than 10 year and we don't have many Subarus here. So, you can imagine how low the number of Subarus (especially Leone/Loyale) with a/c is. Basically 0 I would say. I haven't seen or read about any so far...

 

So, it's sure possible to install an a/c in a non-a/c car, but how much work is necessary? And what parts do I need and what would the cost be when I buy used ones? And because I never saw a Subaru a/c before, could anyone explain how this system works? I know the basics of course, but not the Leone/Loayle specific things.

[nipper]

I dont know.

 

The US models did not have AC in them as standard equipment. They were AC ready. This means that the wiring harness had all the plugs, and the evaporator was already in the heater box (i think .. they are relativly chep when your making 1000's of them). The dealer usually installed the AC as they got the "kit" from subaru. Thats how a lot of cars. I actually installed one of these kits in an older subaru.

 

I dont know if the european models, where AC in cars were very rare are the same. If i had to guess i would say no.

 

nipper

[Gloyale]

I dont know.

 

The US models did not have AC in them as standard equipment. They were AC ready. This means that the wiring harness had all the plugs, and the evaporator was already in the heater box (i think .. they are relativly chep when your making 1000's of them). The dealer usually installed the AC as they got the "kit" from subaru. Thats how a lot of cars. I actually installed one of these kits in an older subaru.

 

I dont know if the european models, where AC in cars were very rare are the same. If i had to guess i would say no.

 

nipper

 

Actually many of the US cars did come with fatory air, many also had a differnet setup installed by dealer. Both were designed by Subaru(or with there approval), but one setup was made by Hitachi, the other by Matsushiitaa(panasonic). And no none of them had the Evap core "already in the heater box" The evap core lives in it's own section of ducting, between the blower and the heater box. Cars that did nopt have AC just have an empty duct in that place. To instal the Evap core, remove that empty duct and install the Evap unit in it's place

 

And Nip, if you installed one, why don't you know what needs to go in to do the swap?

 

stickedy, it would be expensivce for sure, but I would ship you all the AC parts if you want. And I do mean all. I am about to part out a GL-10 turbo with Hitachi A/C. It requires alot. But I have it all. heres the short list

 

Condensor and hoses

Evap core and ducting

Condensor

Idler pulley for belt and Condensor bracket

A/C switch style vent control

Condensor and fan relay

reciever/dryer

Clutch fan and shroud

 

Anybody see anything I missed?

 

I'll sell ya the lot of all of it for $40 US. But shipping is gonna be the big deal. At least now you have a list(partial?) of what you need, and maybe you can find it there

[stickedy]

The wiring harness is ready for a/c, that's sure. So that wouldn't be the problem at all.

 

Hmm, could you please look what the shipping would cost? I have no idea what the weight of this things is... Delivering with ship would be OK, time doesn't really matter

 

If it's not that expensive, I would take the parts! The summer is getting hotter here from year to year...

[Gloyale]

The wiring harness is ready for a/c, that's sure. So that wouldn't be the problem at all.

 

Hmm, could you please look what the shipping would cost? I have no idea what the weight of this things is... Delivering with ship would be OK, time doesn't really matter

 

If it's not that expensive, I would take the parts! The summer is getting hotter here from year to year...

 

I'll check. Probably have to come in 2 or 3 boxes. At least the condensor would have to be in it's own box. it's big and flat and has fins like a radiator. We ship internationally all the time at my work. What town in Germany?

[stickedy]

The town is 96369 Weissenbrunn. But it should be unimportant since shipping in Germany depends not on the start and destination points (apart from some islands).

 

The compressor will find it's place where the alternator is, but where is this condensor to be installed? I guess somewhere under the hood, but where exactly?

 

Edit: Just write me a PM when you have checked the shipping costs.

[Gloyale]

The town is 96369 Weissenbrunn. But it should be unimportant since shipping in Germany depends not on the start and destination points (apart from some islands).

 

The compressor will find it's place where the alternator is, but where is this condensor to be installed? I guess somewhere under the hood, but where exactly?

 

 

Condensor goes up in front of the radiator. I'll get a quote tommorow on shipping. It'll be an estimate at first cause I don't have all the stuff off the car yet. And frankly I won't pull that stuff unless you or someone else wants it. I was going to scrap all the AC stuff. I will take pics of the AC installed before removing, and include copies of the Factory wiring diagrams for it.

[stickedy]

Sounds perfect with the photos and so on, thanks!

An estimate is OK, I guess you have the experience to guess how much it would weight and how big the parts are. So no problem and I really understand that you don't want to make yourself too much work.

 

Another question: Since the digital dashes have another wiring than the analog ones, I have a bit trouble to connect anything right (Nevertheless, I find it out with the diagramms, everything works fine exept for the fuel gauge and the headlight control).

Just in this minute, I had the idea that this big wiring looms from the dash are connected with some kind of connectors behind the dash to the remaining car wiring. Am I right? It would make sense so that Subaru just had to change this part of the wiring when installing digital or analog dashes. Since the whole car and wiring is very well thought out, it would surprise me, if it's not so. If it's the way I think of, have you got that wiring looms? I guess that trip computer needs also to be connected to this whole mess in some way...

[Gloyale]

Sounds perfect with the photos and so on, thanks!

An estimate is OK, I guess you have the experience to guess how much it would weight and how big the parts are. So no problem and I really understand that you don't want to make yourself too much work.

 

Another question: Since the digital dashes have another wiring than the analog ones, I have a bit trouble to connect anything right (Nevertheless, I find it out with the diagramms, everything works fine exept for the fuel gauge and the headlight control).

Just in this minute, I had the idea that this big wiring looms from the dash are connected with some kind of connectors behind the dash to the remaining car wiring. Am I right? It would make sense so that Subaru just had to change this part of the wiring when installing digital or analog dashes. Since the whole car and wiring is very well thought out, it would surprise me, if it's not so. If it's the way I think of, have you got that wiring looms? I guess that trip computer needs also to be connected to this whole mess in some way...

 

No, sorry. The digi dash harness is all different, through out the entire dash. I suppose if you used the WHOLE harness it would all plug in to the big jubnction plugs coming from the engine bay. But you'd have to reinstall the whole thing in you're dash, removing all the old wiring. Did Crawler send you the connectors with the Digidash? If so I would focus on just rearanging the pins for the dash. You'll have to splice in some wires for the Trip Computer. Like Speed signal and fuel level. What style Digi is it? This 86 setup is the old style Amber Digi. Different plugs and wiring than the green ones. I have Service mnanuls for each year. Tell me the year of the dash, and the year of you're car. I can scan and post diagrams. Heck I've got them scanned already from when I sold SUBARUGURU an 88 digidash setup.

[nipper]

Actually many of the US cars did come with fatory air, many also had a differnet setup installed by dealer. Both were designed by Subaru(or with there approval), but one setup was made by Hitachi, the other by Matsushiitaa(panasonic). And no none of them had the Evap core "already in the heater box" The evap core lives in it's own section of ducting, between the blower and the heater box. Cars that did nopt have AC just have an empty duct in that place. To instal the Evap core, remove that empty duct and install the Evap unit in it's place

 

And Nip, if you installed one, why don't you know what needs to go in to do the swap?

 

stickedy, it would be expensivce for sure, but I would ship you all the AC parts if you want. And I do mean all. I am about to part out a GL-10 turbo with Hitachi A/C. It requires alot. But I have it all. heres the short list

 

Condensor and hoses

Evap core and ducting

Condensor

Idler pulley for belt and Condensor bracket

A/C switch style vent control

Condensor and fan relay

reciever/dryer

Clutch fan and shroud

 

Anybody see anything I missed?

 

I'll sell ya the lot of all of it for $40 US. But shipping is gonna be the big deal. At least now you have a list(partial?) of what you need, and maybe you can find it there

 

 

Actually sometimes i can only sit and type so much sometimes

 

You forgot the expansion valve.

 

Receiver direr he is better off getting new, as they really dont like being exposed to air. The descecant tends to break down when exposed to air.

Also i would suggest a new expnasion valve, as they tend to corrode when exposed to air over time.

 

Some days i just have brain farts

 

 

Nipper

[stickedy]

Argh, that's not good... It's a bit too much work to change the whole wiring inside the car

 

Hmm, a scan of that diagramms would be great! I have some documents, but the quality is not that good... Especially this odd light behaviour should be solveable with this. You have said something about several diodes in the other thread? But I can look at his myself when I got the scans.

 

It's both 1986+, the car is 1989, the dash I don't know, but it's a green one. It's not from crawlerdan, it's from another guy. I have just the dash, no wires. But if you could snap the connectors for a digital dash from a car and ship them too - preconditioned I will buy the a/c - would help me with this. If you don't have this, it's probably a good move to look for this connectors from anyone else. Shipping shouldn't be too expensive for this connectors and some cms of wires, even with air mail

[Gloyale]

Argh, that's not good... It's a bit too much work to change the whole wiring inside the car

 

Hmm, a scan of that diagramms would be great! I have some documents, but the quality is not that good... Especially this odd light behaviour should be solveable with this. You have said something about several diodes in the other thread? But I can look at his myself when I got the scans.

 

Give me you're email address. If I size them down small enough to upload here, you will not be able to read them.

[stickedy]

stickedy@web.de - Thanks in advance!

[Gloyale]

stickedy@web.de - Thanks in advance!

 

I put several diagrams for the 88 green digidash in my *photos*. Click on Photos and seach for my name. I will have to wait til monday to email the full PDF's with all the rest. I will check to see if there is any differences in the wiring for you're 89

[daeron]

In case you hadn't heard, it seems to me that more people opt to REMOVE the digidash, and replace it with the analog.... IF they feel like going through all that work

 

I know you said that you want "all the options" on your car; I just wanted to state, as an 87 GL-10 owner with a green digidash, that I would be OVERJOYED if I woke up tomorrow to discover that someone had magically changed my digidash to an analog cluster.

 

I would agree with nipper about replacing the items he mentioned.. these are in a sense, "consumable" items in an air conditioning system anyhow. I wouldn't have a problem with getting the stuff from a junkyard and using it in my car; but paying for shipping overseas on it might not be worth it. Your AC will certainly be more efficient (read: COLDER ) if you use new parts for the evap canister, etc.

 

AND, I will volunteer here and now, to go out to my car and video any little bits and pieces, and then either post or email you the video, IF you should need that sort of animated demonstration of the layout of things once you get to installing it all. Just let me know if and when you would need anything like that, and what you need to see in good detail. Sometimes a video is even better than a picture, because it can give you some dimension to what you are looking at.

 

Also, what kind of radiator fan(s) does your car have? If memory serves, the clutch fan on the water pump was only installed on AC cars.. so it would be advisable to add another fan if you currently only have one. Electric is fine, just don''t forget that an AC only MOVES heat around.. from the inside to the front of your car. You might not *need* the extra fan.. but it would definitely be prudent.

[stickedy]

@Gloyale

Tanks for the images. But higher res PDFs would be great. It's a bit hard to read But the quality is far better, than the ones I already have. These are somewhat dark.

 

@daeron

Hehe, yeah, I know that everyone else does it the other way with the digi dash But I love these digital displays! And, as said before, it almost working except for the fuel gauge (sender unit is on its way) and that light problem. But this shouldn't really be that big deal with the proper documentation. I just a have a slight problem where to put the wires and adapters since I haven't got the original connectors/wires for the digital dash. These would make it much easier...

 

As for the air condition: I have changed the engine twice in the past 12 months (from Turbo to carbed and then back to non-Turbo MPFI), so I guess I will be able to install the parts for the a/c as long as I have everything and some documentation. I guess it shouldn't be that hard at all. But if I have some troubles I will take your fantastic offer. But it's gonna be at least some months before working on this - there are far more important things to do at the car, especially some more rust removing and painting.

 

I have a just one electrical fan but if I understand Gloyale right (I have sometimes trouble with understanding everything correct), the fan would be included? Anyway, if it won't, I was already planning to install a second electric fan since I want to go back to a Turbo engine at some time (after rebuilding the engine, but that could last, I really don't have the motiviation to start with this yet). So, either way, there is a second fan to be installed, no doubt about this

 

And I believe that you and nipper are right with getting a new dryer (I've read it should be replaced every 2 years?) and that expansion valve, but the problem is, that because there aren't really any EA82(T) with a/c here in Germany, you can't buy anything for that in shops. Just at the local Subaru dealer... And that could be expensive: These guys want about 340 US$ for one axle - without installation! - for example. But since it's an expendable and important part for the a/c, perhaps it's gonna be cheap (but I doubt this). Nevertheless, I will ask on monday what this dryer and the valve would cost (but I guess the valve wouldn't be that critical if it's not new?).

[daeron]

I hear you.. It sounds like you are WELL aware of what you want to do, and any "warning comments" I made were not necessary.

 

As for the video, I just figured I would offer.. and in the future, when you get around to doing this, you can send me a PM here. If you can't recall who it was, all you gotta do is dig up your old thread and find me that way

 

The thing about the clutch fan is... the water pumps are not all the same. It is just a difference in height, but it is a difference. My knowledge is vague about it, but I am 99% certain that the different water pumps arose because of a difference in factory AC cars and dealer installed AC cars.. or non AC cars.. or something like that. SO, there is a chance that somehow, on your motor, you *might* not have the clearance for the clutch fan. I could be TOTALLY wrong about this, chances are it shouldn't be an issue.. but it MIGHT. So, I figured I would mention it so you are aware of it now.

 

the height difference is minimal, i think 5-10 mm if I recall correctly. However, adding the second electrical fan makes it a total non-issue.

 

Well, since you appear to know what you are doing, I will shut up now. Glad to be of assistance.

 

(by the way, we need to find a foot-in-mouth smiley.. )

[Gloyale]

 

The thing about the clutch fan is... the water pumps are not all the same. It is just a difference in height, but it is a difference. My knowledge is vague about it, but I am 99% certain that the different water pumps arose because of a difference in factory AC cars and dealer installed AC cars.. or non AC cars.. or something like that. SO, there is a chance that somehow, on your motor, you *might* not have the clearance for the clutch fan. I could be TOTALLY wrong about this, chances are it shouldn't be an issue.. but it MIGHT. So, I figured I would mention it so you are aware of it now.

 

the height difference is minimal, i think 5-10 mm if I recall correctly. However, adding the second electrical fan makes it a total non-issue.

QUOTE]

 

OK just an update. I can't find out about cost of shipping til monday. In the mean time I can say a few things

 

1. Yes stickedy, I will incude a clutch fan and shroud.

 

2. Daeron, the pump difference is because of the different style A/C(factory vs. Dealer installed) But in the end, all the belts and the fan end up spaced excactly the same distance from the front of the motor. (if not there would be differences in crank pulleys, T-belt covers, PS mount etc) Here is the diffence:

on the short pump(105mm), the pulley bolts first to the pump without the fan. It has a thick face, and 4 recessed holes for the bolts. It also has four studs mounted between the holes that protrude away from the engine, this is what the fan bolts to after you've installed the pulley. Total of 8 holes in the pulley = total of 8 things to unbolt to get the pulley off. The thick face of the pulley spaces the fan forward the extra 5mm.

On the long pump(110mm), the pump hub has studs in it directly. The pulley has a thinner face with only 4 holes It slips over the studs, then the fan slips over those same studs and the 4 nuts hold it all on. total of 4 hole=4 things to unbolt

But in the end the belts and the fan all end up in the same place. You won't have any trouble adding the clutch fan. either sytem. I can't even logically see why they made 2 types? Just use which ever pulley you already have. I'm guessing since you don't have AC now, you have the 110mm pump and the thin faced pulley.

[daeron]

We *really* need to write up a brief, concise post on "which water pump do I need???!?!" for the USMB. it only comes up once a month or so.. anyone care to back Gloyale's remarks up? Im about ready to submit that post to the USMB as it is, because I know I have read that before from other members.. I just can't ever remember it. Apparently, I always quote it wrong, too.. I was under the impression it was studs all the way through the pump nose on the shorter pump.

 

I may try to look for photos of the two pumps tomorrow.

[Gloyale]

Apparently, I always quote it wrong, too.. I was under the impression it was studs all the way through the pump nose on the shorter pump.

Often, when you buy a reman or aftermarket pump, it is a crap shoot as to whether the studs are installed or not. Often they are just in a little baggie and you have to install them. This is why it is possible to buy the wrong pump, (say the short one when you need the long) and just throw those studs in it and put you're pulley on.( but that's not good) The reman guys don't know the full little details of the 2 different pumps, they either include them or they don't and I don't think it matters to them which it is.

 

I'm guessing this is a moot point for this thread because the OPs car is non AC so it definatley will have a 110 pump.

 

Here is a pic of both types in the FSM diagram

Top pulley in image is the 110mm setup. The one below is the 105 setup. note the studs installed in the pulley. That's why they give you a baggie of studs with either pump.

[Gloyale]

Okay, so the cheapest I can ship all the A/C stuff to germany for would be about $120 US. This is for 2 boxes. I've been looking on Ebay and reciever/dryers and pressure swithces are both available, and not too expensive. I am willing to ship it all, but is it worth it to ya Stickedy? let me know

[stickedy]

Hmm, so it would be 120 + 40 = 160 US$, right? Hmm... Not little money, but again, I won't get it here. At least not that easy.

 

I asked my dealer yesterday about a new dryer and he put me immediately down. It could take weeks to order one and he isn't sure for the price. He would go into it, if I really need it. So, I guess even if we forget the dryer, it would be still two packets? So, I would say: Send me all! I will pay for it

 

If something is damaged or I need new one, I will try to get it from somewhere here in Germany or Europe. I have a friend who works as a car mechanic and knows about a/c, so this should work I guess

 

Paying with PayPal? Write me a PM about these things. We have to wait untill end of the week because, I get my money not until friday, but that shouldn't really matter?

 

Ah, what about the connectors for the digital dash with some wires on it? Do you have this and would you sell it?

[Gloyale]

 

Ah, what about the connectors for the digital dash with some wires on it? Do you have this and would you sell it?

 

The digidash I have is the old Amber 85/86 style. It does not have the same connectors on it. sorry. You have a PM about shipping the AC stuff.

[daeron]

i REALLY hesitate to post, but if you could make it worth my while I could POSSIBLY get connectors from the 87 GL-10 thats out in the boneyard; BUT I havent seen that car yet, and I dont know what would make it worth my time... AND i do not know when I am going out there.

 

incidentally, is my casual english easy enough for you to understand? that thought just occurred to me, I am not very disciplined in my language used here on the forum.. I can avoid using dont, havent, etc if it would make life easier for you

[stickedy]

Don't worry, I have no problem in understandig english as far as there are not too much technical terms involved. My knowledge about this car related technical terms ins somewhat limitied and I have to look often the translation. Sometimes I think I know the right translation but, but that's not true, so sometimes I get some things wrong... But "normal" english is just fine!

 

For that connectors: I think it's better to ask in the marketplace about it, perhaps someone just parted a proper car or is in the process of doing it. These connectors are neither heavy nor very big, so shipping wouldn't be that expensive, in fact it should be cheap. If there's nobody responding, perhaps we find something to make a deal between us OK?