matts87glsedan Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 I understand your point. It is pretty unlikely that the other ECUs would have this same fault. Yet I can't think of any other thing that would cause a error code 13. Just to verify it, is it still occuring? yep, it is still throwing the code, even though there are pulses from the CAS position wire. And I think I've asked before but how where you testing for spark? Have you tried a shot of starting fluid to see if you get any fire? I just reread the whole thread and am trying to rack my brains and books for ya. Sorry to repeat ?s Also, is your donor harness from a US or Canada car? And what year was it and was it 4wd. Apparently the USA FWD GL sdn/wagons model, w/ auto belts have a rev sensor(tach pulse sensor) that won't allow fuel unless it senses a pulse. i'm testing for spark by holding my coil wire just off of ground. it is the coil that ran my car before so i assume it is good. I'm 90% sure that the donor car didnt have auto belts, but i'm going to the yeard again today so i will double check. but my fuel pump is cycling, and pumps gas well, so thats no problem (actually i do have a q about fuel pump lines but i'm not even going to bring it up till the spark is fixed). ive been thru the ecm plugs pin by pin and checked everything for ground and power. all power inputs have 12v, and all grounds have continuity, except pin 9 air flow meter, which i'm not worried about yet. fuse five horn/hazard/clock checks out. my horn quit working a while ago but the hazards are still operational. The flow chart states: "Check if female terminal of connector (body side) is open. Yes?->Repair or replace harness No?-> Replace CAS." In other words, if there is continuity between the female terminal and ground, replace CAS. If there is no continuity (and the circuit is open) then repair or replace harness. Now, I do NOT know what "terminal" is even being tested.. BUT, I can't tell from your post whether you discovered that the terminal was grounded, or not.. and according to MY interpretation of the FSM, it should be. this step does not make sense to me in the flow chart. I dont know what they are referring to by the "female terminal" either. I just went and re -did the flow chart steps. by the chart, if the female terminal is open, its "repair terminal or replace body harness". If its not (meaning it has continuity), then "replace crank angle sensor". All 4 terminals on my body side plug have either voltage or continuity. so replace crank angle sensor? thats where i was at the last time i did the flow chart, but i dont know what to do. Maybe i should just throw money at it and replace both ecm and disty.... but they'll be JY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts87glsedan Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 well thanks everyone for the input, but i am admitting defeat. I have to go farm for a couple of weeks, and i'm out of time now . I'll resurrect this thread when i get back, but if you have any ideas in the mean time let me know. greyhound station, here i come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I suppose the CAS signal may be putting out a waveform that the ECU doesn't like but I kind of doubt it. The easiest thing to do would be to verify the items in question by putting them in another car and see if they work there. This is a tough one. It isn't going down easy but I think we all will figure out something to get this fixed. Hope you have a good time on the farm. We'll be waiting for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Gloyale, In regards to this problem don't you have a vehicle model similar to Matts car? If you do could you verify that the white wire from the disty shows about 4.3 volts AC while cranking the engine? We have checked for pulses getting to the ECU, and they are. The only thing I can think of now is there is something wrong with the pulse waveform. Checking the voltage levels may help determine that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 Gloyale, In regards to this problem don't you have a vehicle model similar to Matts car? If you do could you verify that the white wire from the disty shows about 4.3 volts AC while cranking the engine? We have checked for pulses getting to the ECU, and they are. The only thing I can think of now is there is something wrong with the pulse waveform. Checking the voltage levels may help determine that. I'l check. But my car is MPFI (same disty,basically) Daeron if you are reading this you have an 87 SPFI FWD right. test the white wire with the AC v scale while cranking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 I'l check. But my car is MPFI (same disty,basically) Daeron if you are reading this you have an 87 SPFI FWD right. test the white wire with the AC v scale while cranking. I should be able to do this on the distributor side, correct? No need to dig into my ECU for this, since MY Car is working? I Will go back and re read this sometime in the next two days, and do so. I have some work to do anyhow; things that were delayed overlong because of my spark plug game.. you both know ALL about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 I should be able to do this on the distributor side, correct? No need to dig into my ECU for this, since MY Car is working? That's correct. It would be a real help to see if your voltage reading is the same by making a comparison in the readings. Thanks Daeron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts87glsedan Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share Posted June 18, 2007 well, its raining on the farm so im back to try and fix my effing car. Theres a running 92 loyale in the paper for 300 bux. i'm trying to get ahold of the guy right now so's i can buy it and test my disty and computer in it (and add to my sube collection of course). it'll be a miracle if its still there, but maybe god will smile on me. in the mean time... Daeron? did you test that voltage by chance? i hate to ask, but man i could use some help big time... THIS JUST IN.... 300 dollar car is still there.. i think i'm buyin it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 well, its raining on the farm so im back to try and fix my effing car. Theres a running 92 loyale in the paper for 300 bux. i'm trying to get ahold of the guy right now so's i can buy it and test my disty and computer in it (and add to my sube collection of course). it'll be a miracle if its still there, but maybe god will smile on me. in the mean time... Daeron? did you test that voltage by chance? i hate to ask, but man i could use some help big time... Exactly what voltage, where, when? If you can give me a plain and simple answer on that, then I will check it. I should have plenty of time to do this Tuesday; I am off and it shouldn't take any more than five minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts87glsedan Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 well, i'm looking for position wire ACvoltage while cranking verify that the white wire from the disty shows about 4.3 volts AC while cranking the engine just for comparison thanks agian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 well, i'm looking for position wire ACvoltage while cranking just for comparison thanks agian Cool enough, does the engine have to be hot, does it matter?? leave the disty plugged in in all ways, correct? and I am looking for a pulse or a steady voltage? Will report back my findings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Daeron, The engine doesn't have to be warm, just running normally at idle. All we are trying to do is see how much AC voltage is on the CAS signal wire of the disty. It may be a white wire on your car, I'm not sure. There should be a couple of wires that have around 5 volts DC on them, with reference to ground, and it should be one of those wires that will have the AC signal on it. Thanks for your help, Glen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts87glsedan Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 well this is getting confusing. I took my GL ecu and distributor (which are the ones that i swapped in), and put them into the running 93 loyale test car. The car runs. so both of those components are good. funny thing is, the wires dont match up color to color. on the body side they are 1 -red 2 - green 3- white 4- black on the disty side they are 1 - red 2 - white 3 - green 4 - black so green and white are opposite, and red and black match up. i think this could be my problem. i guess i will now put the ecu and disty back into the gl with the white and green wires opposite, and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Absolutely it is the problem. Since it appears the disty side of the wiring is correct (the disty works in another car) you need to exchange the white and green wires on the ECU (body) side of the connection. No wonder we were having so much trouble finding the fault with this. Edit: Matt, would you do me a favor and measure the DC voltages on each of disty wires with reference to ground when this is fixed? Measure the voltage on each wire while the ignition is ON and the engine is NOT running. I would like to write the results down for future reference in my manual. I would appreciate it a lot. Thanks, Glen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts87glsedan Posted June 19, 2007 Author Share Posted June 19, 2007 IT IS RUNNING, AND SHOWING NO CODES. this whole mess is because the first harness i bought at the junk yard had the disty plug cut off. i went to another car and got a disty, then cut off its plug and used a 4 pin male and female trailer plug unit, matching up the wires color for color. BUT THEY ARENT COLOR TO COLOR! i started this thread on may 12. time to do spfi swap - FIVE WEEKS! glen, with my battery reading 12.47v, the disty wires read like this- green - 5.14, or .29, depending on rotor position white - 5.14 or .16, depending on rotor position all is DCv i now have to ask about my fuel lines. things are not how they should be on the ol' GL. the steel line running along the frame rail below the coil is currently my supply. my return is the larger of the two steel lines up by the windshield motor. the smaller steel line up there is not attached to anything. the vac hose that angles up from behind the driver side of the intake manifold is plumbed into the brake vac hose. (This hose, on all spfi cars ive looked at, goes to what is now my fuel supply line. However, when i hooked it up this way, i pumped my charcoal canister full of fuel. ) so, let me repeat, the car is running. is this configuration harmful or dangerous at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 :banana: :banana: It makes you that special kinda mad when you find out what actually was the problem was something small and simple ...just ask Daeron about spark plugs:-p :-p :-p . Glad to hear you got it going and didnt give up on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Well congratulations! Hurray!!!! :banana: :banana: Thanks for getting those voltages for me Matt. I really appreciate it a lot. I didn't think about the position of the rotor before but the light could be showing or be blocked depending on the position, so good thinking on your part. I will see if I can find out any info on the fuel lines for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Man, I just finished mowing the lawn (we have had rain here every day off for over a month) and came to check and re read what wires to test, and I am superfluous. Daeron == no help congrats on getting it running though!!! it HAD to be something stupid like that. I think you and me get to share the award for this spring, heh.. longest threads dealing with any one single (idiotic) problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts87glsedan Posted June 20, 2007 Author Share Posted June 20, 2007 yeah its a stupid fix but i'll take it. although what the hell is with the colors not matching up across the plug? Its running nice and smooth now though. just hafta get the fender back on and button up a few things so i can take it for a test drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 If I remember correctly there were more things to deal with on this problem than just the disty wires. Lets have some more bananas........ :banana: :banana: . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matts87glsedan Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 definitely more than one thing. there was a bad ecu, the pin 47 power or no power debate, and the mystery of the non matching disty wires. thanks to cougar, numbchux, Gloyale, and daeron for supplying answers and ideas. may this thread now slide peacefully into obscurity.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 You're welcome Matt. Glad you hung in there on this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 the pin 47 power or no power debate, I must say that cornfused me for a while. I could not figure why pin 47 would output 12v. It must be an integrated circuit/555 timer type circuit. Voltage is driven high when no fuel is to be pumped and then dropped (completeing ground) to activate pump. It's a bit like using a stream of water flowing in one direction to stop a stream of water flowing in the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 The output circuit is basically just a switched transistor output with the output pin (47) tied to the collector of the transistor. When the transistor is off and no current flows, the output pin that is also tied to the supply voltage goes to that level (12 volts). When the transistor switch is on and current flows, the transistor acts about like a normal switch with the other end tied to ground so the pin then goes to ground potential. While a normal switch doesn't need to be tied to a power supply, a transistor used as a switch does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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