No start, crank or click - back to the drawing board

[outback_97]

Seemed fixed for the weekend, now a case of the Mondays

 

*******************************

 

My 97 Legacy OB is sitting across town tonight because I couldn't get it to start after we went out to dinner this evening.

 

Battery is good AFAIK, all normal interior and dash lights come on, seems to have plenty of voltage. I have had no hard time starting or any electrical problems in the past, it starts right up. In hind sight, I have had a couple instances recently where there was the slightest hesitation upon turning the key to start... like a 1/2 to 1 second pause, then it fired right up. Tonight, when I turn the key to start, there's nothing, no cranking or even clicking, there is a click from a relay over by the glove box, I think that's the door lock timer? I also tried starting from neutral, didn't see any blown fuses or fusible link, didn't really know what else to try at that point, so we called a friend and caught a ride home.

 

I read through many threads over the past two hours and it sounds like the things to try include checking the starter and solenoid, and possibly the ignition switch (the electrical one in the column as opposed to the key cylinder itself). I'm going to go back to the restaurant tomorrow morning, if there are any night owls reading this, in what order do you suggest I proceed? Am I way off in assuming it's either ignition switch, solenoid or starter? I have done some minor replacements and repairs of parts, but haven't ever torn into the steering column or starter before. Thanks for any advice you can give.

 

Steve

[Cougar]

First thing to do is remove the battery cables and clean them with a battery brush. Then check to see if the car starts up. If not, check the fuses in the power panel under the hood and make sure voltage is getting to both sides of the fuses there. If they are good then move on to the fuse panel inside the car and check those fuses with the ignition turned on. If there are any dead circuits let us know what fuses are dead.

[Olnick]

What Cougar said for sure. But personally I'd be most suspicious of the contacts in the starter solenoid. Disconnect the wires to the starter then remove the entire unit (one bolt and one nut on a stud, both different sizes--bottom one is probably easiest to reach from underneath.)

 

Then remove the cover plate from the back of the solenoid (phillips screws?) and pull the plunger out. Carry some light sandpaper along--you might be able to clean the L-shaped copper contacts and the circular ring on the plunger enough to keep it working for awhile.

 

Good luck, Steve. Hope it's as simple as that.

[porcupine73]

Sometimes if the contacts are just starting to go bad, if you give the starter a few taps with a hammer (use your small hammer - save the big hammer in case it still doesn't work).

 

If that works, could be the contacts as mentioned.

[outback_97]

Thanks guys, haven't been on the USMB for a long time, almost forgot how awesome people here are!

 

OK, I'm heading over there after a shower and some breakfast. Wish I had gotten more sleep though.

 

No one mentioned the ignition switch, sounds like I won't try that first. Starter / solenoid it is. The car is lifted 2" via springs, do you think I'll need a jack stand to prop that corner up or will the bottom of the starter be accessible w/o jacking it up?

 

I'll bring a set of wrenches, screwdrivers, multimeter, some fine sandpaper and wire brush, SFH (not BFH), Haynes manual, and a nearly complete lack of experience and knowledge at troubleshooting and repair of this type!

 

I do have some backup plans though... there's an auto shop conveniently in the same parking lot, downhill from where it's parked, just have to get a passerby or employee of that shop to help do some pushing to get it turned in the right direction and coast on in.

 

Thanks for the good wishes, I'll check this once more in 30 minutes or so before I leave.

 

Steve

[outback_97]

UPDATE:

 

Got it started, woo hoo! Using this info:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showpost.php?p=561895&postcount=10

 

and other posts like it, I connected the + terminal of the starter to the + of the battery while the key was in the on position, and it cranked over and started up.

 

Drove to the dealership, bought an ignition switch and starter, I'm leaning towards ignition switch being bad, cause when the starter got power it worked just fine. If it's the ignition switch only, I'll return the starter. If it's not just the ignition switch, I'll take the old starter off and try to get that to work. If that doesn't do it, new starter. Sound reasonable?

 

Thanks!

 

Steve

[Cougar]

If the car is a automatic then the trouble may be with the inhibit switch. If the trouble is occurring and car starts while the shifter is in the neutral position then the inhibit switch is the culprit. From your statements it sounds like neither the starter or the ignition switch is bad. One other area that can be trouble at times is the connector in the steering column for the ignition switch. Sometimes the contacts in the terminals get burned due to loose contact.

[Olnick]

I'm leaning towards ignition switch being bad, cause when the starter got power it worked just fine. If it's the ignition switch only, I'll return the starter. If it's not just the ignition switch, I'll take the old starter off and try to get that to work. If that doesn't do it, new starter. Sound reasonable?

 

Way to go, Steve, and thanks for the update.

 

I'd strongly suggest you take the old starter out and check the contacts anyway. (It's not that difficult--if I can do it I'm sure you can!)

 

Those starters are pretty rugged and it's a waste to replace the whole thing for the sake of a couple of dollars worth of small parts.

 

Anyway--more good luck to you. And keep us posted on your progress.

 

Aloha.

[outback_97]

If the car is a automatic then the trouble may be with the inhibit switch. If the trouble is occurring and car starts while the shifter is in the neutral position then the inhibit switch is the culprit. From your statements it sounds like neither the starter or the ignition switch is bad. One other area that can be trouble at times is the connector in the steering column for the ignition switch. Sometimes the contacts in the terminals get burned due to loose contact.

OK, I have the steering column trim removed and new ignition switch wired in to the wiring harness, no improvement though. Powers on the accessories as normal but no start. New switch is physically identical but has five leads and terminals in the wiring connector versus the original's four.

 

I hooked a multimeter to the lead coming through the firewall (that goes to the starter) and to the battery. When I turn the ignition switch, it jumps to over 10V (couldn't tell exactly) and stays there if I hold the switch in the middle of its range from ON to START. If I twist the switch to its limit, the voltage drops back to 0. The trick from before still works, direct from + to starter, key ON, the car starts right up. While it was running I twisted the switch to START, the car almost died, didn't do the normal grindy "I'm already started idiot" noise one would expect if things were working normally.

 

Cougar: Yes, it's a 4EAT, sorry I didn't clarify. I tried jostling the gear shift, also tried putting it in neutral (did this last night as well), no difference, it could still be the inhibit switch but that behavior suggests it may not be, correct?

 

There's an alarm / door unlock system that is rather poorly wired in I'm discovering, I might try to cut that out of the car but I'm apprehensive about jumping into the CF of wires that is in there.

 

OlnicK:

Thanks for the encouragement! I may just do that.

 

Steve

[svxpert]

<<There's an alarm / door unlock system that is rather poorly wired in I'm discovering, I might try to cut that out of the car but I'm apprehensive about jumping into the CF of wires that is in there.>>

 

if it starts when you used the trigger start, you could have a problem with the keyless. to unhook the keyless without cutting wires, look take underdash panel off (2 screws) there are two connectors that are blue, that make a Y connection. unplug them from the Y and reconnect the two blue connectors (original). your keyless/alarm is now disconnected. see what that does.

[outback_97]

WOOT!

 

Car now functioning great, alarmectomy complete.

 

Not sure if one thing or a combination of them fixed it, but I put in the new ignition switch, cleaned off the battery terminals and cables really well, cleaned off the starter lead, and removed the hated alarm system. It would always go off any time I disconnected the battery and reconnected it, so I had snipped the siren leads long ago and never used the thing. They're useless anyway IMO.

Now it starts right up, thanks for the help everyone

[Cougar]

You're welcome for the help O 97. Glad you got it working and thanks for the update.

[Gene J]

Here is another one to consider for the not starting bag of tricks.

 

Got in the Sub today and all I got was clicks. Hmmmm.

 

Cleaned the battery posts and got the same. Put on the charger and it would not charge, It would not draw any amps. Put the charger to 200 amps for fast start and still no amps drawn. Still the same clicks.

 

I started thinking about a bad ground when the radio would not play. The electrical system would come and go.

 

I pulled the battery out and went to the auto parts store to test it. It would vary from 3 to 10 volts and they couldn't charge it either.

 

New battery solved the problem!

[outback_97]

 

Worked great Saturday, Sunday, Monday morning... and then nothing again when I went to go home from work this evening. Fortunately I still had my little cable to "hotwire" it.

 

Started it up again at home just now, with the same method... and now it has a CEL.

 

I think I'm gonna give in and take it to a mechanic tomorrow, hopefully he can figure it out. Tempting to go get an OBDII reader and play around with it, but it's 9:30, dark outside, not in the mood to mess around with it.

 

I'll update when I know more, thanks.

 

Gene: Maybe I need a new battery, don't think that's what it is, but who knows? The OEM one lasted 8 years, the one I have now is only 2.5 years and is a decent Sears one.

 

Steve

[Cougar]

Whatever the error code is it is a seperate issue from the no start problem. I suspect the starting problem is with the inhibit switch or a bad connection to the ignition switch. You could try moving the shifter lever around in the Park position while trying to start the engine to see if that helps.

[outback_97]

I tried wiggling the gear selector, placing it in park, neutral, back to park, but I had also tried this when the problem initially happened and during my fixing attempts over the weekend, it has never made any difference for me.

 

Here's the latest, dropped the car off at the mechanic this morning. First he thought it was the starter, when I talked to him in the a.m.

 

I called this afternoon, and he said there's 11.9V at the lead going to the starter (good) but there's not enough amps (bad) and thus not enough power to crank the starter. He feels it is the neutral position switch (I'm assuming that's AKA the inhibit switch Cougar mentioned). His planned solution is to install a relay that will be actuated by the + starter lead when one turns the key, and switching power from the + of the battery, more elegantly doing what I've been doing with a piece of wire.

 

He took the starter out of the box earlier, but now feels the starter wasn't the problem, I'm hoping the parts dept at the dealer will allow me to return it... he assures me they'll take it back though.

 

I'm a little concerned... wouldn't it be better to solve the disease rather than the symptom? Is the neutral position switch that difficult or expensive to replace that it's smarter to just rig up a relay as he's planning to do? What I don't get is this, why would the mode of failure be: works fine -> sends voltage but low amps? Anyone have any thoughts on this proposed fix? Thanks. :-\

 

Steve

[Cougar]

I agree with you Steve that installing a relay to bypass the inhibit switch isn't the way to fix this. That is the switch I was talking about BTW.

 

I assume the voltage is low on the ignition wire to the starter (the small wire) when the trouble happens since the starter works ok when you jumper that contact to the battery. This means there is a high resistance fault either on the ignition switch start line, which you will probably find in the steering column, or the inhibit switch or the connection to it is bad. This should be a very simple problem to fix. It is basic auto electrical repair class 101.

[outback_97]

Thanks for all the help, Cougar.

 

I called the mechanic this afternoon to discuss my concerns after thinking about it for a while and seeing your response which confirmed them. He said, "I fixed your car, gotta go now, have an emergency to attend to, you can pick it up tomorrow a.m. but not this evening".

 

I've had him do some work in the past, really nice guy, and he's highly recommended by other people in the local Subaru community. I'd like to think he's done the right thing, so we'll see what tomorrow brings I guess. I don't even know what he's done to fix it at this time, nor do I know what the CEL was. Thanks.

 

Steve

[Cougar]

You're welcome for the help Steve. Hope they solved the problem.

[Gene J]

What was the problem??? What did he fix? Inquiring minds want to know!!

[outback_97]

Sorry to leave you hanging, Gene!

 

The mechanic wired a relay into the system to switch power to the starter. I asked him, "Isn't that fixing the symptom rather than the disease?". He agreed, yes, sort of, but that he had done this numerous times, had done it on his own car, no problems. He seems confident it will continue to work for a long time. I paid $96, which is less than the cost an inhibit switch from the local dealership.

 

As long as it keeps working I'm OK with it. I will continue to carry my cable in the car if I ever need that. If I have further problems in the future at least I know a lot more about how the car works, that's one nice thing to come of this.

 

As for the CEL? The mechanic didn't get any codes, at least that's what he told me. So, I have no idea what was causing that.

 

Steve