dromond Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 It breaks my heart to say this, but I think my beloved 1997 Legacy Brighton may be nearing it's end. I've only had it for 2 years, but I put about 30K on it as a daily driver, ski roadtripper, and even drove it across the country and back. The coup de grace appears to be the brake lines. I lost all brake pedal pressure the other day and dropped it off at my local independent subaru mechanic. He checked it out and apparently the part of the brake lines going to the rear right caliper is rusted out so badly - especially where it goes intot he body of the car - that he declined to do the work. Something about having to take out seats, the gas tank, etc. Apparently he had only seen this about 3 times in 20 years of working on the things. He pointed me towards the dealer bus guestimated it would be $600+ of work. What I'm curious about is, how often does this happen? Most of this cars miles were put on in salty northern VT and NH. Perhaps that was the culprit. Unfortunately this isn't the only thing. I'll need new calipers and pads in about 20K ($600) and I've been having a hard-to-pin-down engine problem on long trips that causes severe bucking. It could be the catalytic converter, fuel injection system, anything. Also there's the CEL which has always been on (from the cat.) As much as I love the damned thing putting $2,600+ into a car I got for $4,000 that may not be readily fixable. (Who knows what the engine problem is.) Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAezb Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 It breaks my heart to say this, but I think my beloved 1997 Legacy Brighton may be nearing it's end. I've only had it for 2 years, but I put about 30K on it as a daily driver, ski roadtripper, and even drove it across the country and back. The coup de grace appears to be the brake lines. I lost all brake pedal pressure the other day and dropped it off at my local independent subaru mechanic. He checked it out and apparently the part of the brake lines going to the rear right caliper is rusted out so badly - especially where it goes intot he body of the car - that he declined to do the work. Something about having to take out seats, the gas tank, etc. Apparently he had only seen this about 3 times in 20 years of working on the things. He pointed me towards the dealer bus guestimated it would be $600+ of work. What I'm curious about is, how often does this happen? Most of this cars miles were put on in salty northern VT and NH. Perhaps that was the culprit. Unfortunately this isn't the only thing. I'll need new calipers and pads in about 20K ($600) and I've been having a hard-to-pin-down engine problem on long trips that causes severe bucking. It could be the catalytic converter, fuel injection system, anything. Also there's the CEL which has always been on (from the cat.) As much as I love the damned thing putting $2,600+ into a car I got for $4,000 that may not be readily fixable. (Who knows what the engine problem is.) Thoughts? How many miles on the vehicle? How are you at doing your own work? Replacing the basic components like brake pads, rotors, (outer) brake lines is fairly easy and the parts should run you no more that $100/axle. I admit I'm not sure what's involved with replacing the main brake line(s) that your mechanic suggests is needed. Get a second opinion. And a good independent shop, if you can find one, will usually have much better labor/part rates. http://www.partsamerica.com for after-market brand parts. (I've had good luck with Raybestos rotors and pads for my 96 OBW ~$35 for a set of PG Plus semi-metallic pads, and the GS rotors will run ~$23/ea. A rebuilt kit will run $20 per axle (Subaru's kit - complete set of rubber seals for the sliders and pistons, clips, and grease). or if you want to stay with Subaru OEM parts - there are many good online Subaru parts discounters Why do the calipers need replacing? It is common to have one or more frozen caliper slides, and some Subaru dealers would rather just replace the caliper instead of using a little solvent ( like PB Blaster), some patience, and some persuasion. Are the caliper pistons in bad shape? Have you pulled the codes for the CEL. A CAT problem could simply be that the O2 sensor needs to be replaced, an ~$80 part. Other things to start with that are fairly inexpensive and can be changed by yourself, fuel and air filters, PCV valve, temp sensor, plugs, wiring ,etc. Bottom line get the specifics of what *all* is needed, then price out the parts yourself and you may find it wont be that bad, even if you paid someone to do all the labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dromond Posted May 21, 2007 Author Share Posted May 21, 2007 How many miles on the vehicle? How are you at doing your own work? Replacing the basic components like brake pads, rotors, (outer) brake lines is fairly easy and the parts should run you no more that $100/axle. I admit I'm not sure what's involved with replacing the main brake line(s) that your mechanic is suggesting is needed. Get a second opinion. An good independent shop will usually have much better labor/part rates. www.autowarehouse.com for after-market brand parts. (I've had good luck with Raybestos rotors and pads for my 96 OBW ~$35 for a set of PG semi-metallic pads, ~$23 a piece for AG rotors) or if you want to stay with Subaru OEM parts - many good online discounters Why do the calipers need replacing? It is common to get a frozen slide(s)and some Subaru dealers would rather just replace the caliper instead of using a little solvent ( like PB Blaster), some patience, and some persuasion - may even a rebuilt kit ($20 per axle for new rubber seals). Maybe the caliper pistons are in bad shape? Have you pulled the codes from CEL. A cat problem could simply be that the O2 sensor needs to be replaced, an ~$80 part. Other things to start with that are fairly inexpensive and can be changed by yourself, fuel and air filters, PCV valve, temp sensor, plugs, wiring ,etc. Maybe you'll need to replace a knock, cam, crank position sensor... Bottom line get the specifics of what *all* is needed, then pricing out yourself the parts you may find it wont be that bad, even if you paid someone to do all the labor. There are 132K miles at present. Not high miles for this vehicle with the 2.2L engine by my understanding.. Clearly, many parts of the car are still in good condition. I have very little experience working on cars, but have a good mechanical aptitude in general. I've managed to fix a few things just by winging it. You bring to mind a few good points: A) I have little to lose. The car isn't worth much without functioning brakes. I have access to tools C) I have some time on my hands. (In the summertime I commute by bicycle out of choice.) Space to work on the thing might be a concern. This would definitely be a shade-tree operation. The deal with the calipers is that there is just a lot of winter induced corrosion throughout. Unfortunately, this IS the quote from the good independent shop. He said it was going to be so much of a headache because of the intense amount of rust that he would just prefer not to do it. Perhaps it's worth taking a crack at it anyways. The car is only worth scrap in its current state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 the calipers should not cost anywhere near that amount to replace. this is really easy work...the rust will be your enemy. i'd have a notion to just remove the brake lines, leave them hanging in place and install new (or used) lines in place. this would not be hard and saves you the hassle of dealing with some of the rusted bolts and stuff holding the brake lines. the calipers shouldn't need replaced. if they're working now, there's no need to replace them. subaru calipers very rarely fail. now with all that rust, maybe the inside of the calipers are bad...but i doubt it if they are working fine now. but, even still you can buy used calipers for $25-40, and they require TWO bolts to replace and the brake line, that's it. they very rarely fail and are easy to replace, used is an excellent option. have them shipped from somewhere south or west with no rust. another option is caliper rebuild kits, that's what i do. for $8 you get a kit that does both calipers (both rear or both front). it's one piston seal, and the rubber boot, that's it. also very easy to do and you essentially have brand new calipers for $8. there might be some options. and hopefully someone on here has experience with this and knows an easy way to replace those brake lines without much effort. there are companies that make brake lines and it isn't all that expensive. just give them lengths and type/size of the end couplings and they make them. you could start by putting a request in the "Parts Wanted" forum on this board, someone may have those brakes lines you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmyowensfan20 Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Have you given any thought to purchasing a parts car? Or possibly getting another Legacy and using this one for the parts car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 Yah the calipers are usually pretty good. I have had one on the '94 that was seized and had a little corosion inside, but it was easy to clean up and just used a reseal kit. It helps to have access to compressed air to get the piston out but there are alternatives. Most vehicles I've seen with replaced brake lines have exactly what grossgary said: the existing lines were just cutoff in place and the new lines were just run under the body or wherever convenient. Not sure about your bucking problem; maybe you can get the codes read again if possible and make sure no additional codes have showed up in addition to the cat code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 I've had to redo the lines on the back of my loyale, which isn't much different. The nice thing about subarus is that most of the brake and fuel lines are run inside the body. This protects them from rust. If you flip up the rear seat bottom (you know about that feature right?), the pull the black thin stickybacked stuff up off the floor below the seat bottom, you will see the brake lines. Which ever line rusted off, you want to use a flare union (NOT a compression union) to join your home-bent line to the good line inside the body. Bend the brake line to approxamitely match what was origional, and hook it back up. You may need to replace the flex line that runs out to the strut if the flare nut snaps off in the end. Use flare nut wrenches, Be patient, and you can easily repair it cheaply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 500 bucks tops to get her running like a champ again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 yup, around $500 tops brake lines are not that hard - plenty of PB Blaster, a small wire brush to remove excess rust, and a good set of metric flare wrenches are your freinds. a brake line tubing bender can be very useful as well - prevents kinking the new line when bending it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dromond Posted May 22, 2007 Author Share Posted May 22, 2007 Have you given any thought to purchasing a parts car? Or possibly getting another Legacy and using this one for the parts car? I have considered it. I problems are: A) I live in a downtown-ish area without much extra space and I may be moving across the country in one year. This is also what makes me not want to put the money into a newer car, since I may be ditching whatever I have for something new or for no car at all depending on where I move. Yah the calipers are usually pretty good. I have had one on the '94 that was seized and had a little corosion inside, but it was easy to clean up and just used a reseal kit. It helps to have access to compressed air to get the piston out but there are alternatives. Most vehicles I've seen with replaced brake lines have exactly what grossgary said: the existing lines were just cutoff in place and the new lines were just run under the body or wherever convenient. Not sure about your bucking problem; maybe you can get the codes read again if possible and make sure no additional codes have showed up in addition to the cat code. It does sound like a whole new line might be the way to go. As for the bucking problem, that's definitely more complicated, but it can wait. (I actually have a code reader already. It doesn't show up until I drive for 2-4 hours so the car is still very much useful to me if I can just get the brakes working again. I've had to redo the lines on the back of my loyale, which isn't much different. The nice thing about subarus is that most of the brake and fuel lines are run inside the body. This protects them from rust. If you flip up the rear seat bottom (you know about that feature right?), the pull the black thin stickybacked stuff up off the floor below the seat bottom, you will see the brake lines. Which ever line rusted off, you want to use a flare union (NOT a compression union) to join your home-bent line to the good line inside the body. Bend the brake line to approxamitely match what was origional, and hook it back up. You may need to replace the flex line that runs out to the strut if the flare nut snaps off in the end. Use flare nut wrenches, Be patient, and you can easily repair it cheaply. You're talking about when you flip the back seat bottom up and fold the rear seat backs down, right? Today I'm going to crawl under there and doa little recon to see exactly how bad it is and where I might be able to rerout a new brake line. Thanks so much for everyone's advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aspen Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 The hard brake line is going to be a pretty big job for a shade tree. It is 'possible' to do without dropping the gas tank, but 100 times easier if you do. To drop the tank you need to drop the diff and undo the tank straps. those straps will likely fall apart from rust. That is why the mechanic declined. He knows it won't go well. That stuff is heavy and much easier done on a lift with tools like tranny jacks. I agree that the rest of the stuff can be done for reasonable amounts. If I were you, I would get the hardline done by a shop and do the rest of the brakes and engine sensor stuff on my own. How is the rest of the car for rust? If the tank is ready to leak and the fenders and suspension are rotten, then maybe you should move on to a different car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyKeith Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 I just replaced the gas tank on my 95 which spent it's life in NH until 2005. NH salt and sand KILLS cars. My gas tank was rusted out from it, and in the process I discovered that my rear cross member was also rusting out. I had to replace a section of one of the brake lines due to fatigue from rust. Replacing the gas tank required me to "drop" the brake lines some and in the process the one broke from rust. I don't personally see how you could properly replace the fuel lines with out removing the gas tank, and removing the gas tank is not all that easy. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dromond Posted May 22, 2007 Author Share Posted May 22, 2007 The hard brake line is going to be a pretty big job for a shade tree. It is 'possible' to do without dropping the gas tank, but 100 times easier if you do. To drop the tank you need to drop the diff and undo the tank straps. those straps will likely fall apart from rust. That is why the mechanic declined. He knows it won't go well.That stuff is heavy and much easier done on a lift with tools like tranny jacks. I agree that the rest of the stuff can be done for reasonable amounts. If I were you, I would get the hardline done by a shop and do the rest of the brakes and engine sensor stuff on my own. How is the rest of the car for rust? If the tank is ready to leak and the fenders and suspension are rotten, then maybe you should move on to a different car. You are correct about removing the gas tank. That is indeed why my mechanic declined. I will be checking out the overall rust situation and taking that into account. Perhaps I'll put some photos on here for advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 agreed, if the rust is that bad i would move on as well. even if you fixed this one problem, everything else in the future will be the same increased level of difficulty. the rust is going to get worse and it's a safety issue as well. i'd rather be in an accident with a solid vehicle than something only operating at %60 structurally. if it's minor rust or just isolated to the brake lines, maybe you could install new brake lines that don't follow the same path as the original, that is what i would look into doing. just route them some other way and leave those pesky old lines wherever they are around the fuel tank. i'm working on a 98 legacy sedan now that has horrific rust issues on very particularly items, but everything else is in good condition. i've even started some threads on rusted bolts and studs that won't come out in the past week or two because of it...all rusted exhaust issues. but most stuff is rust free, the frame rails, gas tank and all of that don't have any rust at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dromond Posted May 23, 2007 Author Share Posted May 23, 2007 Well I took a look down there and it's pretty mixed. Some components are looking allright but there's a big helping of good old fashioned New England rust. Realistically speaking, I think that the best option for me is to get someone to replace the brake line as cheaply as I can. It sounds like an entirely new line is the way to go. Tomorrow I'm contacting a more inexpensive mechanic that has been suggested to me. While it might be possible for me to do the work myself, I think that it's going to be too much of a mess. Not having the space, equipment or experience is going to put me at a big disadvantage on such a possibly ugly job. I would then deal with caliper rebuilds, engine tweaking or whatnot myself as necessary. The goal is to keep driving the car through the next winter. Given the 50% or so chance that I will be moving westward next summer I don't want to sink $6K or so into a new (well used) car with all of the rust issues that I'm used to when I might in fact prefer a 2WD rust free economy car from my location of choice. (Possible move locations are Denver, SF and Seattle.) Can you tell I'm a 20-something recently out of college with a budget to match? Here are some photos of the underside of the beast for reference. Thoughts and suggestions are always appreciated! Offending brake line to the right: Rear right drum brake and the leaky brake line. Plenty of rust. The rest of the photos edit: I got rid of the image links. You can see the photos by following the above link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 While the rust may look ugly, it doesn't look structural yet. Take a big screwdriver to the rear crossmember, and poke in the flat area up from where the lateral links connect. That's where my dad's car rusted through. Took a crossmember out of a newer outback, and it was easy to replace. If you can punch holes through, and you don't have mechanical aptitude, I'd sell the car. If you can't punch holes through, fix the brake lines and keep driving it. It shouldn't cost you more than a couple hundered bucks for both the rear brake lines and bleeding. Parts may include: Rear wheel cylinders, both rear flex hoses, brake tubing, flare nuts, and a union. Brake fluid too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Oh, and where in NH do you live? And if you were to ditch the car, how much would you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Rear right drum brake and the leaky brake line. Plenty of rust. have seen a LOT worse - on my own car. the rust you are seeing doesnt look that bad to me, and the body of the car looks to be in good shape (hard to really tell from the angle of the pic tho) I would fix it and drive it till it drops - which could be a while!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dromond Posted May 24, 2007 Author Share Posted May 24, 2007 Oh, and where in NH do you live? And if you were to ditch the car, how much would you want? I'm actually living in Western Mass. now, but I drive through NH frequently. In a year I might be ready to get rid of it if I move. have seen a LOT worse - on my own car. the rust you are seeing doesnt look that bad to me, and the body of the car looks to be in good shape (hard to really tell from the angle of the pic tho) I would fix it and drive it till it drops - which could be a while!! I think that's what I'm going to do. Looking at new(er) car prices, I think that the dollar-value ratio of fixing the bake lines is pretty good, especially considering that I don't want to get a new car now. Thanks for looking at the photos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosDiosDeVerde86 Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 ok...taking the seats out should have NO weight as to whether or not to do the work. i can take all 3 seats out of my car and put them back in 10 minutes. it's only 4 bolts per seat.....that's just laziness. and it sounds like all it is is that you need new break lines which is a common maintenence issue with older vehicle. i'd go to another mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dromond Posted June 20, 2007 Author Share Posted June 20, 2007 Update: I took my car to a friend of a friend who has a small garage out in the sticks. He works at a very reasonable rate and routed all new rear brake lines under the car. He also replaced the spark plug wires (fixing my stuttering engine problem) and replaced the front O2 sensor (fixed my CEL problem.) He charged $450 for everything. I'm pretty ecstatic! It was so worthwhile. My car drives practically like new again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virrdog Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Update: I took my car to a friend of a friend who has a small garage out in the sticks. He works at a very reasonable rate and routed all new rear brake lines under the car. He also replaced the spark plug wires (fixing my stuttering engine problem) and replaced the front O2 sensor (fixed my CEL problem.) He charged $450 for everything. I'm pretty ecstatic! It was so worthwhile. My car drives practically like new again. Awesome! I would finish up the tune-up and get ready to learn to lube up calipers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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