EJ, is there really any other option?

[Tosh]

well as some of you know my head gaskets = fail. 27 miles of TD04 + 280zx turbo injectors. Woe is me. I think something might also be wrong with my oil pump. Anyway now I'm looking at the once again dead wagon in my driveway and not knowing what I should do.

 

Here are the facts

I've got a ton of EA82 parts. really I've got almost 2 whole turbo setups (turbo+manifold 1 stock and 1 td04)

2 spider intakes

2 stock EA82T intakes

5 Sets of 4x140 wheels.

 

1 welded onto the car (well over the rear axle anyway) 3 inch turbo back exhaust.

 

and 1 heart with no love for the EA82 motor anymore. I'm sure its a great motor for most. But I guess I fall into that dreaded "want more power" category. And 1 problem money.

 

I've got no problem spending most/all of my money on my car its my hobbie/passion I just feel like all this EA82T stuff has kind of been a waste. I should of gone with an EJ swap from the start. Oh well live and learn right?

 

My requirements are fairly simple:

EJ, 5 speed, turbo, able to use my TD04 turbo or have a turbo that will bolt onto my downpipe. Power really only needs to be say above 150hp. What motors am I looking at ? I've looked at EJ20G's they seem a bit expensive. So I looked at EJ22T's and they seemed like it might be cheaper or it might be more. So experienced guys whats your "advice" I don't think I "need" the power of the EJ20G but if its the better bang for my buck it might be the way to go. Finding an EJ22T+5 speed seems like it could be a bit tricky and sourcing out another 5 speed+rear diff to work with it might be kind of hard.

 

sorry for the the long post and thanks for reading it / any ideas you have.

 

Cliff notes: EA82T blown up, Want an EJ turbo, which one is best?

[86BRATMAN]

A n/a ej22 can handle 300 crank hp with lower conpression pistons(ej22t stockers will do fine for more than the open deck will hold), bigger injectors, and good tuning. There are reported cases of people just throwing on a turbo and bigger injectors with no managment on the ej22 and being ok.

 

N/a ej22's are cheap, n/a 5spd's do well with the power as long as you don't drive like a typical wrx owner. And you will have, mostly likely, the nice 4.11 final drive.

[Tosh]

Well the main reason I want the turbo is cause well I'm a big fan of turbos I like em, And I'd really hate to waste the Exhaust setup I have right now. if the N/A EJ22 can handle 300hp like you say what about the transmission? I was told the N/A transmission wasn't anywhere near as good as the EJ22T one and wouldn't even accept the same clutches. I'd really like to go with an EJ22T the only real hang up is only being able to find auto ones. I really just need to find a cheap transmission alternative to go with the 2.2

[86BRATMAN]

reddevil on www.legacycentral.org was running some damn respectible times with the stock n/a tranny in his turbo'd n/a legacy wagon. I forget what it finally did. You've heard right they don't use the same clutch, but any clutch upgrade for a 2.5RS will work with the n/a tranny. And another benifit of the early n/a's is the cable clutch, less stuff to modify to get it working.

[Tosh]

Sweet! thanks man thats exactly what I needed to hear. I'm guessing I can get my hands on a 5 speed N/A 2.2 transmission for a lot cheaper then I could one of the series 2 ej transmissions. YAY for cable transmissions. Anyone got a guess price on how much an Ej22 N/A transmission and rear diff would set me back?

[86BRATMAN]

Out there in subieland you could probably find a running donor car for less than piecing it together. Check the local stuff.

[Numbchux]

couple things to keep in mind. the use of a lightweight flywheel will put more shock on your tranny. keep stock weight rotating mass, and it'll be gentler on the tranny gears.

 

I've worked on a couple Turbo'd EJ22e's. one was a '96 impreza L with a PP6 piggyback ECU, with a TD04 pushing 5 psi, and 22t injecters. it put down about 135 awhp through a 4EAT and a 12:1 AFR at the top end (with a better tune should have hit 150).

 

the other being a '97 L with a TD04, WRX TMIC, 22t injectors, and a manual boost controller. ZERO management mods. he daily drives it at 8-9 psi, and has turned it up as high as 14. and he beats the crap out of it. he's put easily 20k miles on it that way.

 

both with 100% stock EJ22e bottom ends.

 

 

 

 

within the next 6-8 months I intend to push about 5 psi of boost through mine. and to hook up a wideband O2 sensor and an AFR gauge to see how well the stock ECU compensates. I'll probably upgrade to a PP6 soon after.

 

 

 

the hard part is management. the biggest investment will be the ECU and harness. or you'll need some sort of tuneable Management, which will involve a sacrifice in driveability.

 

in the long run, this is a question probably better fitted for a newer gen forum (NASIOC, RS25, legacy central, SL-i etc.).

[Tosh]

I would really rather just drop in a EJ22T and leave the engine alone rather then building together an turbo setup from an EJ22e. And I really REALLY don't want to be using a 4EAT I'd rather get rid of the car then drive it auto. The only problem I can find with the EJ22T is the lack of 5 speed transmissions / swappable options. Will a EJ22e transmission have any hope of holding up to the extra 30-40 crank horsepower the 22T is going to put out ? obviously a new clutch would be key to that. Does anyone know of a good clutch option that would work for this? 86BRATMAN you mentioned using a 2.5RS clutch, would that require a RS flywheel too ?

[offroadsubaruguy]

my geuss would be that the clutch will bolt right up. im using a lightweight flywheel for a wrx on my legacy with a stock legacy clutch, so i dont see why a 2.5rs clutch cant fit your legacy...... just get part numbers and compare, if they ar the same, your good, if not, you might want to check things out. like bring the pressure plate with you and check to see if the holes line up or not.... i dont think the tranny will be an issue, just dont drive it like you stole it all the time and you'll be ok.....

[idosubaru]

you can't beat an EJ22 for price and reliability. only you can make financial decisions for yourself, but the EJ22 is what i would recommend to someone who doesn't have loads of disposable income, it just makes sense...as a hobbyist and a financial planner. if you can afford it, without stretching yourself, then go for the turbo set up now. if that's going to stretch you thin, the EJ22 alone will be an enourmous improvement over your EA82T. add a turbo and i think you'll be very happy with the performance. the beauty is that since you're "dumping all your money" on your hobby, the EJ22 is easily replaceable. have any problems or blow an EJ22T or EG20 and the cost to replace is large. EJ22's are cheap. blow it up and who cares?

[86BRATMAN]

No need for the RS flywheel. The clutches will swap right over. The ones made for ej25 cars have a higher clamping force in the pressure plate. So that will help with clutch slipage.

 

I read a little more on legacy central Douglas Vincent, the one I was speaking about, made multiple 12 second passes in his legacy wagon with the n/a 4.11 trans.

[Numbchux]

btw, 22t and WRX trannies use a hydraulic clutch. which means in order to use one, you'll need some UBER fabrication to make it work. pedal box, cutting a hole in the firewall, mounting a clutch master cylinder. YIKES!!!!

 

YES, the N/A tranny will hold up to the extra power. just keep the rotating mass stock (no lightweight/underdrive pullies, no lightweight flywheel).

 

 

I've got a buddy with a EJ20g putting down 320awhp through a '96 impreza L 5-speed. it all depends on how you drive it. if you shock it alot, you'll rip teeth off.

 

I wasn't suggesting using a 4EAT, only that that setup put down that much power through one (ATs rob quite a bit of power).

 

22ts are overrated and over priced. if you're willing to put some time, effort and research into your build, you can get just as much power out of an N/A motor, for a fraction of the cost.

 

 

I say get an adapter plate and an XT6 pressure plate, and use your tranny (it's FT4WD right?)

[Tosh]

Alright alright I think you guys have convinced me. Go with an EJ22e for now hey at least I wont have to pay for 91 right ? I've been keeping my eyes peeled on craigs list where else should i be looking for a nice EJ22 donor car?

[86BRATMAN]

Keep your eyes on the local papers too. I see them a lot out here running cars with bad bodies for under $300.

[Tosh]

I say get an adapter plate and an XT6 pressure plate, and use your tranny (it's FT4WD right?)

 

How much do adapter plates run ? I've already got a "stage 2" custom clutch for my Ea82 motor its kevlar blah blah. so I THINK it might be able to hold the power. I was more worried about the pushbutton 4wheel drive tranny.

 

are the 22e's closed deck's like the 22t's ?

[86BRATMAN]

No they are open deck. But they still hold perfect up to about the 300hp mark. With the exception of the pistons the internals of the two blocks are the same though.

[Numbchux]

No they are open deck. But they still hold perfect up to about the 300hp mark. With the exception of the pistons the internals of the two blocks are the same though.

 

yep, and it's just the SHAPE of the pistons that's different (for lower compression ratio). not the composition.

 

AND, there are so many people doing crazy huge builds on the 22t that it's pretty easy to get your hands on some used pistons from one to drop into your 22e to drop the compression.

 

 

I bet your EA82 trans would hold up to 200hp pretty easily as long as you don't abuse the crap out of it. in fact, as far as I've been able to tell, they didn't change the internals of the trannies from EA82s to your basic EJ 5MT. just the center diff, front pinion gear, and assorted gear ratios. be a little gentle, and run scotty's cocktail in it, and you'll be fine.

 

as for the adapter plates, check out http://www.mroseusa.com

[Tosh]

humm well I'm gonna keep the hope alive that I find a decent 5 speed EJ22T while I save up a bit more money but I guess if its the end of summer and I can't find one I'll have to do an 22e.

[kingbobdole]

Why turbo? Are you a boost freak? You can have the front end of your exhaust changed to mate(or it might just do it ) to a N/A setup. My vote is for an EJ25 SOHC motor... like the one I did. I also recommend the EJ tranny and to stay away from the adapter plates... you'll be happier in the long run.

 

Also you might help the people out and tells us how fast exactly you want to go. My 88 Rx with the 2.5 will run a 15 second quarter mile at over 6000 feet and I get about 30 MPG around town on regular.... I mostly built it for the gas milage, but am very happy with the performance and the fact I can flog it and not have to buy premium or kill the MPG.

Just a thought.

[pisces_0]

humm well I'm gonna keep the hope alive that I find a decent 5 speed EJ22T while I save up a bit more money but I guess if its the end of summer and I can't find one I'll have to do an 22e.

'Chux is right. Unless you're going for crazy power, an EJ22E will be more than sufficient. 300 horsepower in the light EA82 chassis would make one heck of a fun car!

 

And yes, keep an eye out but don't hold your breath for an EJ22T. A turbo Legacy showed up in a local boneyard and I was able to score the ECU, wiring harness and turbo-specific solenoids and sensors. Came back two days later for the engine and it had been picked clean. Saw the engine on eBay a week or so later and it went for MUCH more than the boneyard was selling it for. These things fetch a premium price and unless you stumble across one you'll be looking for a while or be paying through the nose.

[Numbchux]

I also recommend the EJ tranny and to stay away from the adapter plates... you'll be happier in the long run.

 

What makes you say that? I've got my 22e bolted to an RX trans via an adapter plate. and love it to death. only dissapointment is the lack of on-street traction devices (but I intend to drop a front LSD in there before too long).

[Tosh]

My vote is for an EJ25 SOHC motor... like the one I did.

 

Got any particulars for that swap ? whats all needed, what engines will drop in, what I need to do to get it to fit?

 

What makes you say that? I've got my 22e bolted to an RX trans via an adapter plate. and love it to death. only dissapointment is the lack of on-street traction devices (but I intend to drop a front LSD in there before too long).

 

I think I would rather rock the full time AWD myself. the whole pushbutton setup has always been a bit "iffy" for me. Wont engage when I really want/need it to etc etc.

 

 

also from what I can tell I want to avoid the DOHC EJ25's unless I like doing a HG job?

[86BRATMAN]

The dohc ej25 is a good motor. The head gasket issue is only repetative if the job isn't don't completely right; heads checked and trued, or not using the updated head gasket from subaru.

 

For any ej swap, you'll need to same amount of stuff. Motor, wiring, ecu, and since you are wanting to go with the awd tranny the trans and rear end.

[subyrally]

how did you kill your ea82t so fast man?? ive been beating the hell out of mine and it wont die. it might give a complaint here and there, but it still runs strong.

 

maybe you should get the ea82 heads and block machined flat and talk to the guys at ram performance, they came out with some haed gaskets for the ea82t that are supposedly stronger than enything else thats out right now.

 

also, make sure there isnt another reason that your gaskets got eated.

[Tosh]

how did you kill your ea82t so fast man??

welcome to the world of buying a rebuilt EA82T. Apparently whoever did the rebuild (about 60k ago) used aftermarket head gaskets and not Subaru ones.

 

 

maybe you should get the ea82 heads and block machined flat and talk......

Even a built EA82T isn't going to offer me what an EJ can. Thats reliability. In all honesty its less about the power and more about that. I bought the wagon as kind of my "snoboarding wagon" I want something thats not going to leave me stuck, In a very cold cold snowy place.