captainkf Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 So I am driving my "trusty and reliable" 92 loyale wagon fwd up a mountain pass (25 km back on a tight switchback dirt road) and all is going well. Then I go over some rough washboard on a tight corner @ aprox 4000 rpm when I smell coolant and the temps go up. I have never seen my temp gauge up past half before. I hop out, check the hoses and rad and no leaks. I look at the front of the engine in it's leaking liquid. Crawl under and it's leaking oil and coolant:eek: ! I top up the oil and coolant, let it cool down, put some water on the engine (to assist in cooling) and start gently up the 9 km hill. I repeat this process 6 times to get to the summit. As the engine heats up the noise (marbles in the engine) increases. This noise has been around for a couple of monthes on a much lower level when the engine is straining at low rpm and I chalked it up to a 230,000 km engine with a bit of knock. However now it sounds like a bad diesel. It also starting a zinging or buzzing sound and was quite reluctant to start. I just had a new oil pump in 4 months ago, plugs, wires, oil change every 5000 km's, air filter and oil filter. So, after limping the car home I start getting very concerned and think of just selling it (or giving it away). It's booked into a garage on Monday to have it checked out. After explaining the symptoms on the phone the guy thought it might be water pump or the head gasket. It has had hydraulic lifter noise since I purchased it in October 06 also. So, what do you all think it could be? Estimates on parts, labour time and difficulty would be appreciated! Stranded in BC - Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Hmmmmm. If it was just the coolant and overheating, I'd say head gaskets, but the noise doesn't sound good... Did you look at the engine oil perchance? Wonder if it got enough coolant in there to kill the main bearings? I guess a really bad water pump bearing could explain everything except the oil leaking... It sure would be nice if that was it. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 The *rattling* noise may be a sign that you're timing is out of adjustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedoctor Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 I like water pump. I just recently went through this on my 83. I always have some oil leaks I can live with... but they were worse because of the overheating... And I did have a "marble" phase in the development of the problem. I'm glad you're taking it in because the marble phase is followed immediately by the "marbles in the meat grinder" phase. But at least I knew what it was for sure. (You should plan to have one gallon of water for every three miles if you want to push it this far.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted July 8, 2007 Author Share Posted July 8, 2007 The oil leaking was minimal. It may have even been what was leaking before and the residue on the surface mixed with the antifreeze. Hope this info helps the doctor diagnose the ailment. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 if it wasn't significant oil, it was probably running off with the antifreeze. did it ever get to the red? the noise could be heat related - pinging or louder than normal HLA's. if it's a hose then no big deal, replace and see. if it's something worse, like $250 in water pump work then you might want to reconsider. if you didn't run it hot too much and kept it from the red the engine should be fine. they are quite resilient engines if you keep them from the red and running out of oil. i'd replace it myself, but i wouldn't being paying someone else to do it so that's easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 All that noise was caused by the overheated engine. The engine is likely running lean and/or the timing is too far advanced. Didn't mention exactly where the coolant flow was located and I wonder if the engine overheated just because of the ignition timing being off and the condition of the radiator. Any radiator on its last leg will cause overheating pulling a steep grade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted July 8, 2007 Author Share Posted July 8, 2007 No it never got to the red. I shut it down first. Like I said, it has never overheated before, not even close. So I think the rad is fine. I have never had the timing done, or at least don't recall having it done. The coolant was leaking out of the front of the engine, I think the head gasket? Sorry, but I haven't wrenched on this car's engine much. How difficult is it to drop in a new engine or replace a water pump? I have helped friends replace different manufacturers engines in the past, but have never done it myself. Can you recomend a good book to assist other than haynes? -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 When was the last time the timing belt, idlers, and water pump were changed. It sounds like a water pump failure. nipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted July 8, 2007 Author Share Posted July 8, 2007 timing belt was done within the last 3 monthes. As for the other two, unknown. Is a water pump and bearing a difficult job and does it require a new head gasket now that it leaked? -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 No it never got to the red. I shut it down first. Like I said, it has never overheated before, not even close. So I think the rad is fine. I have never had the timing done, or at least don't recall having it done. The coolant was leaking out of the front of the engine, I think the head gasket? Sorry, but I haven't wrenched on this car's engine much. How difficult is it to drop in a new engine or replace a water pump? I have helped friends replace different manufacturers engines in the past, but have never done it myself. Can you recomend a good book to assist other than haynes? -Richard If it was leaking out of the timing belt covers, it's likely it was the water pump, not head gaskets. I don't think that head gaskets on the EA82's tend to leak externally when they fail, but I could be wrong. In any case, it would most likely be leaking from where the head joins the block, not the front of the engine. Putting in a new engine is probably almost as much work as doing the water pump -- about a day for either. Okay, probably half a day for the water pump. I have a chilton's for mine. If you are in there replacing the water pump, might as well do the timing belts and idlers too -- it's alot of the same stuff you have to remove to do either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 Don't forget you are working on a boxer engine, with an engine mounted normally (ie, RWD configuration rather than transverse/FWD) The cylinder heads are on either side of the engine.. look down to the ground along the shock tower, then slowly look up. those are the valve covers and the head gaskets are about 6" further in.. Water leaking out the front of the engine is typically a water pump or pump gasket failure, which amount to the same thing. Head gaskets are probably OK since you say you didnt get red.. but you DID mention adding water to a hot engine, your engine DOES have a good amount of age on it, so there IS a chance that something went amiss. Just saying possible, and that possibility varies with how close it got. If you kept it away from the red you're probly fine. If you have a bit of experience, changing the water pump is not a major task. With some ambition, the water pump and timing belt job on this car is a great job to do as a "Maybe I could fix this instead of the mechanic?" first type of serious amateur job. If the timing belts are fairly new then no need to change them, but IIRC they *do* have to come off and go back on to change the water pump. (I may be recalling wrong, hence the IIRC) http://www.ch601.org.engines.htm click, find subaru ea82 service manual, two pdf files.. between them there is a large chunk of the 89 GL FSM, covering specs, all engine procedures, and fuel injection systems (and a couple of other things) NOT the whole FSM, but the REALLY important parts. I agree in thinking that the marble noise was probably pinging; do you run low test in the car? if so, a simple way to see if this noise is pinging, would be to run a tank of high test and see if it goes away. You *should* be able to run low test; I couldnt for a long time without pinging. I don't know why; it went away when I did my headgaskets. (ever since then low test has been fine.) I think in removing and replacing the distributor i fixed something I didn't know was wrong. See if you can have the mechanic check the timing while it is in the shop; to test the timing there are two green connectors (should be the extreme rear driver side of the engine bay, near the brake MC) to plug into each other. Timing should be at 20* BTDC (twenty degrees before top dead center) with the connectors plugged. In short, if you can get the mechanic to diagnose things for you and tell you whats wrong with the thing, first off I bet he tells you that the water pump is bad. Secondly, I would request (since he is doing some diagnostic work on the car for you anyhow) that he check the timing, and check the compression on the engine. Get the compression numbers from him if you can; all four cylinders should be within 10% of each other, and they should have from 110-170PSI of compression in them. (110 is kinda low, 130 would be a more realistic idea of a low "good" number but as low as 110 seems to be tolerable) If one or two cylinders have drastically different compression, then you have a good chance of having bad headgaskets. IF it is just the water pump, take it home and dive in; if you are even bothering to ask, you should be able to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted July 8, 2007 Author Share Posted July 8, 2007 If I am going to do this (which I will I think) would it be easier to tackle the hydraulic lifters on the passenger side also as they are not working properly anymore? It seems there is quite a bit of space on that side of the engine and access is not going to be too much of an issue. I have replaced the drive front axles, brake assemblies and such on my old (now sold) loyale, so I am somewhat familiar with the car. Thanks for all the assistance. Do I need any specialized tools (pullers or tensioners) to do these jobs? What advice can you give to a first timer? -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 the lifters do not always need to be replaced; they can often be cleaned up a bit by running a quart of ATF, or some sea foam or marvel mystery oil or similar product in the engine oil for a little while before an oil/filter change. There are very small oil passages in them, and they work on oil pressure; oil pressure can be reduced by gunk in these oil passages blocking flow, which a flushing agent can help to get rid of, OR it can be reduced by a failing pump. The oil pump is easy to take off and reseal while doing the water pump, and shouldn't require any special tools (right? I haven't done the oil pump myself but can't recall anything particularly odd about the job) There is also an O ring in the middle of the head that sometimes collapses and gets sucked into an oil passage; this O ring has also been known to obstruct the flow of oil enough to aggravate the hydraulic lifters and make some noise. In any case, whatever is causing your TOD.. Bad lifters, clogged lifters, low oil flow from bad pump output, or some other oil blockage like the cam case o ring... that will need to be checked outside of this current issue. (I say this wagering heavily that your failure is a water pump, that your timing is not set properly,and that in most other respects you should be OK) If you were overheating, as has been stated before, any TOD you had is going to be exagerrated and made louder... so I doubt that THAT issue has gone from bad to worse, and until you KNOW that it is problematic too, its best to focus primarily on the issue that is causing major fault with the car: the (presumed) water pump problem. Make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted July 9, 2007 Author Share Posted July 9, 2007 Yup, makes sense. I have run sea foam through a few times and I've got a new oil pump. The noise comes and goes. I thought if I was going to be working on the engine, might as well do all of the jobs at once. I see no harm in this, however I may be missing somthing. Thanks for all the additional info. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Yup, makes sense. I have run sea foam through a few times and I've got a new oil pump. The noise comes and goes. I thought if I was going to be working on the engine, might as well do all of the jobs at once. I see no harm in this, however I may be missing somthing. Thanks for all the additional info. -Richard Okay, well given all that, I will change what I say to you, heh. To replace the lifters, all that needs to be removed is the cam case. While you are at it, may as well replace the O ring I was talking about; they are available from thepartsbin.com inexpensively; the subaru OEM rings are the only ones that are metal reinforced and in time most non reinforced ones get sucked into the passage. There are people who have found the cheapest lifters to purchase. If you want to just take the passenger cam case off to replace that side's lifters, it shouldn't be that major a job. The driver side, it is MUCH easier to remove the valve cover with a ratcheting box wrench.. but thats because there is an extra bolt on a longer valve cover, because the distributor is on that side. Good RTV sealant is all you need to go betewen the cam case and the cylinder head, but make sure you clean the groove on the bottom of the cam case out thoroughly. (you will see what I mean if you do it) Sorry if I am telling you things you know; it seems in the last week or two, several new people have shown up and I am just giving everyone the basic primer on these subjects. Without knowing you yet, its impossible for me to gauge how much I don't need to tell you, yanno? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted July 9, 2007 Author Share Posted July 9, 2007 I appreciate the assumption that I know very little about these jobs, as that is the case:) . Thanks for the time and the info. I will post updates as they come up. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 i had never seen bad head gaskets leak coolant no matter how much you cook them, driving on a bad water pump. when the bushing goes bad the water pump will leak out of ots weep hole. the pulleys could break off or the wobble is so bad(squalling belts) the impeller grinds its face off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RONAN Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Ran into a similar problem about 7yrs ago. I automatically assumed it was either a head gasket or waterpump. Turned out to be the little dog-legged shaped coolant line that comes off the front of the engine that`s hidden underneath the A/C compressor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted July 9, 2007 Author Share Posted July 9, 2007 Well, I just heard from the garage and the verdict is the water pump. The bolts that hold it in place came off and caused it to loosen and loose all it's fluid and destroy the pump. They are pulling it off and replacing it as I am very ill and we need the car now. So fixing it myself is not an option and two hours shop time seems reasonable. I'll post more when I have the info. Thanks again for all the help. I have however fallen for the little black impreza ts 2.5L loner car I have. Oh man, is that thing ever a riot to drive. I think it (or one like it) may be our next car. I was very concerned this was going to cost a fortune to fix and was looking at alternatives. I hate buying cars, they cost too much $$$. Here in the southern interior of BC we get so much snow (25 feet yearly) that Subaru's are THE choice car to have. The problem is they get driven into the ground and used parts are big bucks. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Well, I just heard from the garage and the verdict is the water pump. The bolts that hold it in place came off and caused it to loosen and loose all it's fluid and destroy the pump. They are pulling it off and replacing it as I am very ill and we need the car now. So fixing it myself is not an option and two hours shop time seems reasonable. I'll post more when I have the info. Thanks again for all the help. I have however fallen for the little black impreza ts 2.5L loner car I have. Oh man, is that thing ever a riot to drive. I think it (or one like it) may be our next car. I was very concerned this was going to cost a fortune to fix and was looking at alternatives. I hate buying cars, they cost too much $$$. Here in the southern interior of BC we get so much snow (25 feet yearly) that Subaru's are THE choice car to have. The problem is they get driven into the ground and used parts are big bucks. -Richard Capital, excellent to hear that the damage was minimal and as we expected. what year is the impreza?? personally, I have been fond of the earliest generation ones since they came out.. which was WAYY before I had the GL-10 (heck, I think my dad still had his XT6 at that point) There is something about the rare sedan that is handsome yet not masculine, and the impreza has it with a bullet. Certain maximas also have it, IMo.. but it is an elusive quality. I have never driven one but can only imagine; it must feel like ten loyale/GLs stack on top of each other (metaphorically speaking, of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Here in the southern interior of BC we get so much snow (25 feet yearly) that Subaru's are THE choice car to have. The problem is they get driven into the ground and used parts are big bucks. -Richard Huh? They are the car of choice here too, but that means there are tons of them around, and all the autoparts places keep lots of subaru parts in stock for fairly decent prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted July 11, 2007 Author Share Posted July 11, 2007 Well, it does not make much sense, but it's true. There seem to be very few subie's in the parts yards. The impreza was a 2002 ts w/a 2.5. What a riot to drive. However if I owned it I couldn't pay the speeding tickets . The loyale keeps me grounded as it will speed, but only when I REALLY work at it. The problem was the H20 pump bolts came loose and fell off causing the pump to break and drop all the coolant out of the engine. After a new pump, it works like a charm. I talked with the garage about the TOD and they suggested a new oil pump. I put one in two monthes ago and they suggested running 15w 30 oil. So, i needed an oil change anyways, and gave it a try. It works! No TOD as of yet. We'll see if it lasts. I also had the AC system charged and man, it's nice stuff. At 38 degree's celcius today it was uber nice. So in the end it cost a bit over $500 to have the shop do everything and the car runs great. Worth it as far as I'm concerned as we just bought a house and i don't have the time or health (i'm still sick) to fix it. Thanks for the input and feedback everyone who helped. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyewdall Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 The impreza was a 2002 ts w/a 2.5. What a riot to drive. However if I owned it I couldn't pay the speeding tickets . The loyale keeps me grounded as it will speed, but only when I REALLY work at it. LOL. That would probably happen to me if I got rid of my GL wagon too.... Glad to hear it's back on the road. I've started running 5W50 synthetic in mine (about 15k miles ago), and it seems to be quieter on startup and smoother running. It never had TOD, but did click for a few seconds on cold startup, which it doesn't do any more. It's getting hot here.... I might have to have the A/C system fixed on mine -- it needs a new compressor, and recharged. That's really the ONLY thing that makes me want a new car... I want something with working A/C. Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 So in the end it cost a bit over $500 to have the shop do everything and the car runs great. Worth it as far as I'm concerned as we just bought a house and i don't have the time or health (i'm still sick) to fix it. -Richard Sounds like a shop that knows subarus and has fair prices. If only shops here where like that. I still wouldn't take my car to them(I've never paid a Mechanic for anything in my life) but it would be nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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