Sbiessel Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 For starters, I'm new here. I've got an '87 GL turbowagon with 99k miles. I'm from Fairbanks, AK, which is pretty hard on rigs. I'm not terribly mechanically inclined unlike most of you guys but I love these cars. Anyways, here's whats going on. There's white smoke coming out of the exhaust pipe intermittently and a strong smell of burning antifreeze whenever the turbo engages. I thought it was probably a cracked head gasket. I liked the car enough and thought it was probably worth fixing. So I took it to a mechanic and they said cracked head gasket, but they didn't do engine work. So I take it to another place and they thought it was definitely a leak in the cooling system in the turbocharger that was allowing coolant into the engine--but they wouldn't do that kind of work. I've read that turbos usually go bad between 60-120,000 miles on these cars. You guys probably know the symptoms better than these mechanics. What do you all think? I've got an appointment to look at the turbocharger this friday with ANOTHER mechanic at the local dealership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithless88 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Strong smell of antifreeze would normally mean a leak somewhere. If the white smoke is like mine it would mean oil hitting the catlatic converter. This is just my $.02. And welcome to USMB, these guys and gals have been very helpfull for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 not really a turbo guy, but it sounds like these shops are trying to take you for a ride in your own old japanese turbo car... It sounds to me like something has blown in the turbo, allowing coolant to leak into the intake charge somehow. I realize this may sound relatively obvious, but in short, thats where your problem likely lies. Has the car overheated at all? I am sure persons more knowledgable about the turbo models than myself will chime in soon enough; if not search, this is not an uncommon problem. I simply dont know it because its not my car, you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misledxcracker Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Could even be the intake manifold gasket. When I have mystery coolant leaks, I yank the thermostat, and pressure check the system. I've never done this on a Subaru, so results may vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky92 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Strong smell of antifreeze would normally mean a leak somewhere. If the white smoke is like mine it would mean oil hitting the catlatic converter. This is just my $.02. And welcome to USMB, these guys and gals have been very helpfull for me. Oil smoke is blue BTW:) ..and if you are getting coolant into the exhaust it will still have the smell of burning antifreeze. It does sound like the mechanics are giving you the run around...they just dont WANT to work on the car....any mechanic who sayd they dont do engine work...well they arent a mechanic Not a turbo person either but: How much coolant are you going through? and mileage on the motor? Is the car getting hot? I know from ready the posts that turbos are notorious for head gaskets..and also some leaking into the turbo ( or was that oil?) I know some of the turbo people will be on later and can help more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sbiessel Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 The motor has 99k on it. The car hasn't been overheating at all. Yeah, it does sound like these guys are giving me a run around. The subaru specialists in town wouldn't even look at it, telling me they had a cutoff date of 1990. Does sound like a leak into the intake charge. Well, I'm taking it in to the dealership and they have to look at it. Going to get the diagnosis and estimate. Hopefully they'll know what they're doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 The SPFI, NA engines frequently blow intake manifold gaskets and suck coolant into the intake charge. Your turbo is MPFI, so it would have a totally different intake manifold gasket set up... and I have no idea if its failure prone in this way at all. Could well be, though; it is a common problem with many cars. All EA82s are prone to developing cracks in the exhaust ports that allow coolant into exhaust. Either of these will have the same effect, as would a turbo that lets coolant into the intake charge. I think its safe to say that you are burning coolant; try pulling a plug. If it looks CLEAN then theres a good chance its a turbo or intake mani gasket. (ie, coolant getting into combustion chamber, helps clean carbon deposits up.) On the other hand, you could also maybe drop the exhaust manifold? is that difficult to do on the turbo? and look REAL close into the exhaust ports for cracks. If your plugs are showing carbon and normal dirty but acceptable conditions, then I would lean towards the possibility of cracked exhaust port. No BIG deal, if you cant find junkyard heads near you someone on the board could easily come through. IF, you wind up having significant work done on the engine, COME BACK AND READ THIS POST: These engines almost ALWAYS (virtually always) have small cracks between the valves on each cylinder. NOT A PROBLEM if the crack isnt big enough to fit a fingernail into. the place to check for cracks is the exhaust port; if you find one there then the head is junk, or needs to be welded (not worth it) Do not let a shop, especially a subaru dealership, tell you otherwise: Between-The-Valve cracks are OK, exhaust port cracks are bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 just to answer a couple of questions..the turbo unit is very reliable and with my own which has about 220mi on it hardly leaks any oil..if the car operates in the normal heat range when warmed up and stays there under normal driving conditions, then I would assume that the headgasket(s) are Ok..I would be willing to bet that the problem you are experienceing is a result of a leaking manifold gasket and if this turns out to be so, then make sure that who ever works on the car uses a subaru gasket and not an aftermarket one(this is a very important gasket and the after market ones don't work for very long in this case) also, when removing the manifold bolts make sure someone with patience and skill will remove those bolts because if it shears off at the block level, you will be in for an extra $500 dollars to remove the stud..if the body of the car is still decent with only 99k, then it would definitly be worth keeping and fixing the car..also if you decide to keep the car in the future, come back to this site and develope a better understanding about the turbos and how to avoid any other problems that would be associated with an ageing car and other things to be aware of..... a couple of side stories on "hard on rings" ...many years ago I had a friend living up there and was told that the temps get down to -50F and he used automatic tranny oil in the crankcase...another story from my daughter when she phoned me was, she said: "how come the oil will not come out of the bottle" this was castrol synthetic oil...Goodluck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I doubt that you're turbo has anything to do with it. It would have to totally crack it's casting to leak coolant internally. Turbos will sometimes leak oil around the bearings, but I've never seen one leaking coolant into the intake. My bet is on cracks in the exhaust port. Sorry to say, but it seems most of these Turbo cars develop those cracks. Remove the exhaust from the heads, and look for cracks in the exhaust port. It is possible though that you have an external coolant leak. Check all you're hoses, espescially the ones to the heater core. They are at the top of the system, and like to "steam" out coolant rather than actually leak liquid. The steam coming out that close to the cabin air intake often results in Antifreeze smell inside the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 = the place to check for cracks is the exhaust port; if you find one there then the head is junk, or needs to be welded (not worth it) Do not let a shop, especially a subaru dealership, tell you otherwise: Between-The-Valve cracks are OK, exhaust port cracks are bad. I have to disagree with the notion that having the heads welded is not worth it. It seems to me as these cars get older, that is the only real option. I;m saving all my EA82 heads to have welded(gonna do it myself once I'm better with aluminum) Seems like all the turbo heads crack, and no new ones are being made. If we throw away all the cracked ones there will be non left. It cost me $60 to have an exhaust crack welded. I got a deal, but even an expensive shop will not charge more than $100. New heads are basically non-existant anymore (SOA showed having about 25-30 in the whole US, and that was 6 months ago) And are about $400 a piece. Reman heads are at least $250 a piece, and possibly haven't been fixed and are ready to crack right on install. Used heads would be pointless to install unless you happen to find uncracked gen 3 heads(unlikely, and some gen 3's crack anyhow) $100-$200 bucks for cleaning, welding, and resurfacing from a machine shop is cheaper and you then know for sure what you've got. The welder who did mine actually thickened the wall in that area so it's less likely to crack again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocarsgo Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 hey I seem to have some similar symptoms. I just bought an 85 turbo sedan (title says g4d but it seems like an rx) and it started up great and ran fine until we got about 6 miles out on the highway, the exhaust had started smoking and the side draincock on the radiator came off quickly leaking coolant. right then the car died and we (my friend and I) pulled to the side right away. The engine was way overheated and steaming off the leaked fluid. We found the cap inside and the threads were looked completely torn. anyway so we went back and he gave us a new plug from his parts wagon. put that right in and filled it with water and we were on our way. till the car died again. we waited for it to cool down and added as much water as we could and continued to try and make it back to my house but this time we only made it for less than 5 minutes. each time the engine is way overheated. so we ended up just getting it towed when a cop stopped and asked what up. when the tow guy got there he said he had to take it to the garage cus it was a police call, and could tow it the rest of the way afterwards. But when we got to his garage they had to look at the cars information to make sure it wasn't stolen. It turns out that the way the guy wrote up the bill of sale wasn't right (title was in wife's name but she wasn't inlcuded in the bill of sale) wasn't gonna do so they wouldn't be able to release the car, untill i have him rewright the bill. the oil light keeps coming on and when rev it up a bit the light goes away but come right back on when the rpm isn't high. Also we can tell that the engine is misfiring(probably needs new ignition), but we don't think thats really the problem. we're guessing its either the fuel pump or rod and bearings(or both) that are shot. it's definitely not the radiator. and the engine has plenty of oil. the heads were rebuilt about a year ago. what do you guys think would fix this thing? this guy told me the car was in great running condition, and I didn't even make it 6 miles before the first thing goes wrong, not to mention I couldn't even make it halfway home in it (hour long drive). The towing is gonna end up costing 200 something all together and my friend says that doing the oil pump and bearings + tuneup might be $200 as well, making my total cost like 1000 dollars. everyone's saying i need to get my money back since I definitely did not get what he told me I was getting. All I wanted was a cheap first car and this one seemed like it would turn out awesome. What do you guys think, get the money back and start the search again for a car, one I can at least drive home!!! or keep this one and see if we can get it running so that i can rely on it, maybe see if he will pay for the towing =)? I don't know is it worth it? earlier today i was convinced im gonna ask for the money back but its a tough decision since it's such a cool little car. p.s. also the speedometer always displays 0mph and the fuel level and temperature gauge aren't functioning either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveeen Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 nocarsgo: I seem to have some similar symptoms. Ah, no. What is your automotive skill level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 It sounds to me like you have a blown head gasket, now at the very least. It may or may not have been blown when you picked it up, but something caused an initial overheat, and if you got the temperature gauge up to the red zone at all chances are at least 98% in favor of a blown headgasket. Probably much higher, given that you overheated it repeatedly. I would try to get your money back. An older turbo car is not a wise choice for a "cheap first car," too many things to go wrong. Find a non turbo 80's soob, SPFI, and you will be far better off. Fivespeed, if you can drive a clutch. If not, learn, heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 It sounds to me like you have a blown head gasket, now at the very least. It may or may not have been blown when you picked it up, but something caused an initial overheat, and if you got the temperature gauge up to the red zone at all chances are at least 98% in favor of a blown headgasket. Probably much higher, given that you overheated it repeatedly. I would try to get your money back. An older turbo car is not a wise choice for a "cheap first car," too many things to go wrong. Find a non turbo 80's soob, SPFI, and you will be far better off. Fivespeed, if you can drive a clutch. If not, learn, heh. I agree get rid of it..I have an older one, runs great, but when FI goes or the head leaking, off to the junk pile for bone pickers..parts are hard to come buy, etc, I don't want to make a long story here...a good spfi would be the way to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 p.s. also the speedometer always displays 0mph and the fuel level and temperature gauge aren't functioning either. NEver ever ever EVER!!!! drive a car (espescially a turbo) without a working tempature gauge. If it had a gauge, you would have seen it getting hot (probably on the test drive before you bought it) You could have shut her down before overheating. But once it gets hot enough to stop running you're SOL, and probably have cracked the heads into the exhaust. Much as I love Turbos, I;m guessing you're in over you're head here. If you can get you're money back, do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nocarsgo Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 thank you for your replies, its a great community when you get this many replies so fast. as for the symptoms, I was just saying that because there was white smoke coming out of the tail pipe once we goto onto the hwy. The smelling anti freeze was from when the radiator leaked out and was smoking off the engine, but I know that part isn't from the main problem. No, I don't have much mechanic skill, but my friend that I brought along with me has done a ton of stuff with vw's and rebuilt 2 or 3 of them and now a bunch to his ford. I brought him along to be safer having someone way more knowledgeable than me and also had him drive it from the guys house as I followed him. the speculations I provided earlier are his. when it first happened he feared also that maybe we blew a head. but after looking at it from underneath and since the guy just had them rebuilt about a year ago, he concluded that it wasn't that. So you guys don't think it could be something smaller, a combination of problems creating a big one like not having enough oil pressure from a bad oil pump and having the bearings way worn, causing it to overheat, and the old wiring and spark plugs not being able to keep it going? what are the possibilities? I'd really like to keep this car but if but if you guys think the problem is too big/not worth it then I'm gonna listen to you guys and take it back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 With time and money you could rebuild the engine. You may need to get new heads or have those ones fixed. It sounds like a a blown headgasket, and often that will cause/contribute to the heads cracking in the exhaust ports, espescially on turbos. If you don't want to get involved with a serious undertaking though, I'd say look for something else. If, however you want to learn about cars, this is a perfect starting point. Subaru's are a good first car for learning, if for no other reason than this board. Fantastic resource. And so much more friendly, and informative a board than most other makes with boards on the web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 So you guys don't think it could be something smaller, a combination of problems creating a big one like not having enough oil pressure from a bad oil pump and having the bearings way worn, causing it to overheat, and the old wiring and spark plugs not being able to keep it going? what are the possibilities? I'd really like to keep this car but if but if you guys think the problem is too big/not worth it then I'm gonna listen to you guys and take it back. It certainly COULD be something smaller.... There is a nonzero chance, at most 2% according to the odds I rated it at above (remember, I said above that the "2%" figure is probably MUCH smaller than that) that your headgaskets are NOT fried.. if you didnt actually come into the red zone over and over again (uncertain what actual temp range that is, sorry) then maybe they are okay.... BUT, experience with these cars says the headgaskets are their weak point, followed closely by tendencies towards head cracks.. both due to overheating. Yours is a tragic, yet all too common tale. Of course, that doesnt NECESSARILY mean to junk it!! if the car, otherwise, is in good shape, and has good options, then it may well be worth getting a set of heads and rebuilding! But probably not to you. Hopefully, if this car is in nice shape, someone somewhere will save it! but I am probably being naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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