Best speakers for front doors on Legacy Turbo

[BoostedLegacy]

I recently bought some Infinity reference speakers and they really didn't fit well in the front door. I ended up mounting them in the box for my Sub in the trunk, and just putting my rear seat down when i want music. Just curious on what some of you are using or what ideas you have...

[ericem]

Were they to deep?? You could have made or got spacers.

[PAezb]

I recently bought some Infinity reference speakers and they really didn't fit well in the front door. I ended up mounting them in the box for my Sub in the trunk, and just putting my rear seat down when i want music. Just curious on what some of you are using or what ideas you have...

 

I did some high-end installs as a side many, many years ago. Back then (80s) some of the best sounding car speakers, IMHO, were those from ADS, Canton, and Nakamichi, and some from the Fujitsu Ten Eclipse line. Some of these required modifications and baffling reinforcement of the door panels and making custom boxes for the rears. Nowadays, there are so many different brands and lines out there it's mind boggling. If your looking for ideas I'd start with what Crutchfield offers and recommends for OEM fit and higher-end sound quality. As ericem pointed out, you should be able to buy frame spacers if the Infinity's are too deep.

 

I've not messed with either of my Subie's stock systems as I tend to listen to mostly talk radio now-a-days:rolleyes: and wouldn't benefit from it - (a shame)

[BoostedLegacy]

Were they to deep?? You could have made or got spacers.

 

No and they had spacers with them. But the sound quality wasn't great and sometimes they would rattle. I think i need something more like a tweeter that doesn't need great acoustics.

[86BRATMAN]

Look into the dynamat enclosures for door speakers, they give a semi sealed air space that really brings door speakers to life. Also, you make have been underpowering the speakers. If going with full component type speakers it is usually worthwhile, for longevity of speaker and sound quality, to get a 4 channel amp with rms output as close a match as possible to the speaker. Components, subs, and tweeters will fail more often from underpowering than overpowering.

[Virrdog]

No and they had spacers with them. But the sound quality wasn't great and sometimes they would rattle. I think i need something more like a tweeter that doesn't need great acoustics.

Umm... :-\

 

Ok, the sound quality probably didn't sound great because References are not known for their mid-bass. You need to sound deaden your door to get the most out of ANY speaker, but especially Infinity speakers.

 

If the speakers were new, the rattling had to be installer error. How you held that against them, I do not know. But it must have sounded better than coming out of the trunk. And how in the world did you mount them in a sub box?? We are talking about 6 1/2" speakers, right. Subwoofers may rattle when installed in the front doors regardless...

 

I am not a brand fanboy, but I know that my References sound just fine with the spacers I made for them. I helped fill the mid-bass hole with my 10" kicker in the trunk. Its not perfect, but sounds good enough for me to listen to and enjoy. I seem to have deveoloped a minimum quality tolerance, I didn't turn the headunit on much at all until I got the References in there. I just listened to the 3" exhaust instead.

[Virrdog]

Components, subs, and tweeters will fail more often from underpowering than overpowering.

Common wives-tale.

 

Just make sure you don't say that over on NASIOC...

 

Underpowered amps tend to get turned up (gain and/or volume) until they start to clip... clipping is 3 or 4 times more average power than a sine wave. This overloads the speaker (suspension, spider, or heat tolerance) and then it fails. The logic behind "underpowering" is whacky because then you could blow up a speaker by turning the amp off... :-\

 

That being said, its better to have a high quality amp of excessive power with its gains turned down than vice versa.

[86BRATMAN]

Not a wives tale. I've seen it happen, I used to do installs under the table for a well trained, highly experienced, competition winning, professional. And I've personally seen a friend of mine go through five sets of kahpa's in his 02 RS by just running them off his pioneer deck. We sourced a proper amp and he has not had a problem in three years.

[PAezb]

I agree,

 

I often ran the full power of 120watt/channel amps (Carver M240s) to 50 watt max rated speakers (a/d/s 320i and 300i) without a problem. You have to be much more careful on the stock radio's 10-20watt/channel due to clipping (tops of the sine waves become flat lines or DC, and is more prevalent and dangerous in higher frequencies)- straight DC kills tweeter's voice coils... well woofers too. It's akin to hooking the voice coil of the driver directly to the DC power supply of the amp.

 

Now ask me how my hearing is.....:-p

[123c]

When I had my Legacy, I had the stock Panasonic system, and I was happy with it, but it doesn't take much to make me happy. But again, I just listen to the radio, and leave the fancy systems for the house, where they will less likely be stolen...

[BoostedLegacy]

Umm... :-\

 

Ok, the sound quality probably didn't sound great because References are not known for their mid-bass. You need to sound deaden your door to get the most out of ANY speaker, but especially Infinity speakers.

 

If the speakers were new, the rattling had to be installer error. How you held that against them, I do not know. But it must have sounded better than coming out of the trunk. And how in the world did you mount them in a sub box?? We are talking about 6 1/2" speakers, right. Subwoofers may rattle when installed in the front doors regardless...

 

 

and thats exactly why i installed them in the box and want to put something different up front They sound excellent in the box, i just need something up front...

[bulwnkl]

So, PAezb, as a former a/d/s, Nakamichi, etc. fan, what speakers sound good to your ears these days? I always thought a/d/s speakers were terrific, but haven't messed with a stock system in a decade. However, I'm tired of our Mazda's inability to produce frequencies below ~500Hz at an audible level and the Baja is OK but you just can't turn it up loud enough to hear "properly."

 

{end thread hijack}

[PAezb]

So, PAezb, as a former a/d/s, Nakamichi, etc. fan, what speakers sound good to your ears these days? I always thought a/d/s speakers were terrific, but haven't messed with a stock system in a decade. However, I'm tired of our Mazda's inability to produce frequencies below ~500Hz at an audible level and the Baja is OK but you just can't turn it up loud enough to hear "properly."

 

{end thread hijack}

 

Ha! it's been a few years for me too since I've done any serious auditioning of car audio. Getting older has a lot to do with it - interests and priorities change you know. The a/d/s 320i is legendary now. I actually spent a couple hours each day over two weeks demoing the speakers in Audio King's sound room (remember them? now Ultimate Electronics). This was for my Grand Am project (alright no boos please, it was before I became a Subaru convert, and I have't looked back:-p ). It came down to the a/d/s and Nakamichi with a/d/s winning out as it had a bit more punch in the lows and had excellent detail and balance, and could be driven very loudly past their power handling limits, while not distorting or being destroyed by excessive (clean) power. The Nakamichi's I recall had a slighty sweeter high end in their favor. The Canton's, which I had limited exposure with but I definitely liked, had a slightly warmer sound to them, and were quite pricey at the time (probably still are). All three lines, handled rock, jazz, classical, etc equally well.

 

I really don't know how those lines today compare (it's been 20 years) to everything else thats out on the market nowadays. If you don't want to spend the time and money on a custom install with higher end components, I think I remember reading post's here in the archives of a couple of people with mid to late nineties MY Subarus simply upgrading the stock speakers with some moderately priced Pioneers and claimed it made a huge difference. You might want to consider adding an external amp to your stock radio if it supports pre-amp outputs. Again, I'd recommend to anyone looking to upgrade to give Crutchfield's a call, their phone techs always seemed pretty knowledgeable and can offer some good options with today's products for any vehicle - a good starting reference.

[Virrdog]

Not a wives tale. I've seen it happen, I used to do installs under the table for a well trained, highly experienced, competition winning, professional. And I've personally seen a friend of mine go through five sets of kahpa's in his 02 RS by just running them off his pioneer deck. We sourced a proper amp and he has not had a problem in three years.

Please explain how the lack of power caused a mechanical failure in the speaker... :-\

 

If that was the case he would damage his speakers everytime he turned down his radio even with the amp (very little power). I still say its because clipping the signal generates much higher average power. If he didn't crank his head unit so high the speakers would never have blown. He doesn't have to use such a high setting on the radio with the amp because he can adjust the gains to satisfactory volume at lower volume settings (where it doesn't clip the signal in the radio).

[PAezb]

Please explain how the lack of power caused a mechanical failure in the speaker... :-\

 

If that was the case he would damage his speakers everytime he turned down his radio even with the amp (very little power). I still say its because clipping the signal generates much higher average power. If he didn't crank his head unit so high the speakers would never have blown. He doesn't have to use such a high setting on the radio with the amp because he can adjust the gains to satisfactory volume at lower volume settings (where it doesn't clip the signal in the radio).

 

 

You're basically right on you statement of clipping producing a high level of "distorted" signal power, but wrong that gain controls on an amplifier can prevent clipping. They are use to balance volume levels between multi-amp configurations. It's not practical to try to use them to prevent clipping because signal input levels sources can vary in strength, you'll never find a happy medium while trying to protect the amp from clipping with the strongest input signal because a low "soft" signal won't be properly amplified to be heard. That's a crude explanation and there's more to it than that, but that's the gist of it. Search the web on "amplifier clipping" and "amplifier gain controls" and you'll find lot of articles on the subject (although some may be incorrect also).

 

That's why if you like to listing to loud music frequently, it best to overkill on the amplifier's power output capability (and/or headroom) in respect to what the speaker is rated to handle.

[86BRATMAN]

I should revise and clarify my statement... Underpowering alone is not the culprit. But in higher sound levels, where an amplifier isn't used, the distortion effect overheats and burns out the voice coils of a speaker. Using an amplifier of close rms ratings to speaker, will allow the use of lower volume settings. And in turn reducing distortion, and not overheating the voice coils.

[PeterD]

^^^ no kidding i like my stock stereo so far.. just plug my Ipod into the aux imput and im good to go. the system for such an old car really dosn't suck... i did have a newer cd player and it really made the stock speakers shine.

 

but back to the topic. when you installed the after market speakers did you notice that the factory spearkers have that crazy spacer deal to bring the speaker away from the door. I know my 91 has them and they are part of the original speaker.. without thoes i could totaly see the speakers not fitting well and or rattling.

[BoostedLegacy]

^^^ no kidding i like my stock stereo so far.. just plug my Ipod into the aux imput and im good to go. the system for such an old car really dosn't suck... i did have a newer cd player and it really made the stock speakers shine.

 

but back to the topic. when you installed the after market speakers did you notice that the factory spearkers have that crazy spacer deal to bring the speaker away from the door. I know my 91 has them and they are part of the original speaker.. without thoes i could totaly see the speakers not fitting well and or rattling.

 

The problem was the spacers that came with the speakers. The holes didn't line up all the way around, and at the time I didn't have a drill or the time so I just lined up as many as I could and called it good (I just wanted music because the originals were blown completely). They were fine until you turned them up and obviously there going to rattle if there not held in on all sides. FINALLY I HAD THE TIME AND THE DRILL TO DO IT CORRECTLY, but then I got the idea of putting them in the back in the sub box. I know that sounds funny but if you saw the box you would see that there perfect in the box. The clarity is SO much better, and the box is large enough that there isn't interference with the subwoofer (the box covers the entire width of my trunk and sits directly behind my rear seat of which i always have folded down). The speakers are also meant to be run of the deck. I checked with the salesman first before I bought them. There was two reference speakers there, and he pointed me to the set that didn't need an amp. So I'm sorry for not being clear enough. I'm basically looking for a decent tweeter set to place in the front. After some thinking, I may not need to put speakers in the doors.

[Virrdog]

You're basically right on you statement of clipping producing a high level of "distorted" signal power, but wrong that gain controls on an amplifier can prevent clipping.

I think we are now to the point of arguing the same side. I never said setting the gains will allow you to prevent clipping of the amp. The original point I am trying to make is that saying "underpowering can kill a speaker" is asinine and ignorant. I was merely pointing out how you can prevent clipping the source unit with an amplifier by adjusting the gains properly. If you have a digital volume control that goes to 40, you should set your amplifier gains to produce your highest volume before you get to 34-36 (or wherever the headunit starts clipping the signal) on the volume knob.

 

That's why if you like to listing to loud music frequently, it best to overkill on the amplifier's power output capability (and/or headroom) in respect to what the speaker is rated to handle.

This is very true. But underpowering it will never kill the speakers like 86Bratman originally said. Trying to turn up the amplifier gains or volume control too much can. The idea that hooking up too small of an amplifier to your speakers will make them go up in smoke is ridiculous. If you have a sub that can handle 1200W continous RMS and you hook up a 100W amp at full distortion at full volume... it will never blow the speaker. The speaker can handle whatever power the amp can throw at it, even at continuous full rail voltage. Its when the clipping power of the amp is more than the rated power handling of the speaker where problems happen. Don't try to crank a crappy amp and/or radio too high and you won't blow anything underpowered or not. You will see a need for more volume and get a bigger amp to accomplish it.

 

I'm trying not to write a book here, these topics are well covered... everywhere. I just have a pet peeve against the false statement that underpowering will kill a speaker :-\ It's the retard behind the volume knob that cranks it into distortion that does.

[Virrdog]

I got the idea of putting them in the back in the sub box. I know that sounds funny but if you saw the box you would see that there perfect in the box. The clarity is SO much better, and the box is large enough that there isn't interference with the subwoofer (the box covers the entire width of my trunk and sits directly behind my rear seat of which i always have folded down). The speakers are also meant to be run of the deck. I checked with the salesman first before I bought them. There was two reference speakers there, and he pointed me to the set that didn't need an amp. So I'm sorry for not being clear enough. I'm basically looking for a decent tweeter set to place in the front. After some thinking, I may not need to put speakers in the doors.

 

Ok, I'm sorry, but most of what you are saying sounds funny. Please post pics. Did you install little 6.5" speakers in the same box as a subwoofer?? That's bad all around. The pressure from the air movement of the sub is going to blow those speakers to bits if that's the case.

 

And speaker salesmen (similar to car salesmen) typically don't know anything except how to make a sale. Every set of speakers can benefit from a real amp with a switching power supply. What made the speakers different? Were they of higher sensitivity or maybe a lower power rating?

 

So you plan on having the references in the back with their woofer and tweeter firing forward and only a set of tweeters in the front of the car? That is not going to sound right. :-\. I would start out by reinstalling the References PROPERLY and go from there. You can put sound deadening or a reflex pad on the outer door skin directly behind the speaker to help out if you don't want to deaden the whole door.

[BoostedLegacy]

never mind, lets just forget about it

[Virrdog]

No pics? I was just trying to understand what you were talking about.

 

You asked for suggestions and what other people are running. I can get some pics for you if you want to see how mine is set up. It's a little easier for me to amp stuff, though, because I have the battery in the back.