Brat - Very tight steering

[samneric]

Hi,

 

Since buying my Brat I have had a very hard time turning it at low speeds (getting in and out of parking spaces etc) but had other issues to fix. So now I've got around to fixing this, I noticed that the knuckle balljoint boots, the tie rod end boots and the steering rack boots are split.

 

Figuring that the knuckle ball joints would actually losen up if damaged, I decided my first plan of attach was the steering rack so last night I swapped in the one from my parts car which only has 80k on it. The problem still persists.

 

When I had the two racks side by side, the 80k one did seem easier to move than the existing one so that may be helping out.

 

Before I hooked up the tie rod on the passenger side, I tried turning the hub with my hands and it did seem very tight - Would a bad balljoint cause this or could the problem also come from the joint at the top of the strut tower? I'm not sure the struts are stock because they seem to be adjustable - there are two bolts under the coil that I would guess let you set different levels of compression.

 

Anyone bought the recommended Subaru steering gearbox grease? (FSM calls for "Valiant Grease M2") or is there a substitute?

 

(Edited - found parts!)

 

Steve

[Virrdog]

With no power steering you have to really crank on the wheel at lower speeds. Are you not use to non-power steering or does it take a phenomenal effort to turn the wheel?

 

If it feels fine at speed, then I would say everything would be fine. If something was freezing up you would find it very hard to make say a right hand turn onto a street.

[samneric]

With no power steering you have to really crank on the wheel at lower speeds. Are you not use to non-power steering or does it take a phenomenal effort to turn the wheel?

 

If it feels fine at speed, then I would say everything would be fine. If something was freezing up you would find it very hard to make say a right hand turn onto a street.

 

I haven't driven a non PS car for a few years but even so it seems excessi vely tight.

 

I need to work on getting the symptoms accurate but as I seem to remember turning onto a street is hard. I think it is worse turning right and turning left is hard at first then gets real easy when you get closer to full lock.

 

I'll go for a drive now and get back with more specifics.

 

Steve

[samneric]

With no power steering you have to really crank on the wheel at lower speeds. Are you not use to non-power steering or does it take a phenomenal effort to turn the wheel?

 

If it feels fine at speed, then I would say everything would be fine. If something was freezing up you would find it very hard to make say a right hand turn onto a street.

 

I just gave it a ride and found that going left at very low <5 mph the steering is kinda ok going left then actually starts turning itself towards lock.

 

Going right it is harder to turn and gets very hard towards full lock.

 

Now it was hard to turn originally but it was in a front end wreck two days after I got it so I didn't have time to get the symptoms prior.

 

I think I'm going to have to do some more work to get the passenger wheel aligned before I can get accurate symptoms. I did bare minimal work to get the car running after the wreck but while working on it over the last few days I noticed a couple of things I still need to work on.

 

Firstly, upon closer inspection, the control arm is bent backwards slightly - It looked ok when I first fixed the damage. Back then I only replaced the leading arm which was bent into a v shape.

 

Secondly, due to the accident, the strut tower in the frame looks like it was pushed upwards because the mounting plate is higher on the impact side is higher than the one on the good side. I need to see if I can lower it somehow. I'll take measurements when the control arm is swapped in from my parts car.

 

Other than that it must only be the control arm balljoint or the strut bearing seing as those are what the wheel rotate on.

 

Keep ya posted.

 

Steve

[Ross]

Another thing to check is the universal joint on the steering column shaft..... I had a bad one in an 81 wagon, I was amazed at how much easier it was to turn with a new one! A symptom of that was that the wheel wouldn't centre itself, even at 50km/h or so you'd have to physically turn it back to straight....

[daeron]

I would say that your best bet would be to lift the car and try to disassemble the steering system somewhat; try to see if you can isolate a bad joint or two. Sometimes a loose balljoint or tie rod end can translate to difficult steering when in motion; I would recommend a substantial disassembly and general component inspection. This may seem a tad excessive, and it may seem like you could probably "narrow it down" to a certain part or parts, but if the vehicle was in a front end collision anyhow, I would want to pull it all apart just for inspection for peace of mind as much as anything else.

[samneric]

So I got task 1 (Control Arm) completed:banana:

 

I whipped on the arm from my spare car and was just about to fix up the balljoint pinch bolt when I took a step back. Argh! the strut is still trailing off vertical

 

Let me crawl under the car, compare and contrast....

 

Hmmm the pivot bracket on the cross member is bent.

 

Lets see, its 3pm, can I get the cross member out of both cars and back into the DD before (at least!) midnight?!?!?

 

Wack, ratchet, hammer, thump... The cross member is off both cars.

 

6pm - slight delay due to control arm pivot bolt rusted into bushing.

 

Saw, grind, Simple Green, scrub... The new cross member arm free, clean(ish) and ready to go up onto the car.

 

Lift, Fiddle, Torque, Breather.... The strut sits in the upright position - Hurrah!!!!

 

11pm - Exhausted, showered and ready to turn key for test drive....

 

Crank......(LOUD!) Pop Pop Pop Pop... Ut Oh - Not Exhausted at all! - forgot to tighted the manifold bolts. Bugger it, I'll do it in the morning.

 

Birds tweeting, Torque, Torque, Change of clothes and drive to work.

 

Steering seems easier!!

 

Wheel is offset 45 degrees and car pulls violently to the right but hey tracking can be done 2nite... now where is that length of string?????

 

Steve

 

P.S. Daeron, I did check out all the balljoints which have no play. Their boots are cracked but I already have my shopping list of front end pieces... Thanks for the info

 

 

 

I would say that your best bet would be to lift the car and try to disassemble the steering system somewhat; try to see if you can isolate a bad joint or two. Sometimes a loose balljoint or tie rod end can translate to difficult steering when in motion; I would recommend a substantial disassembly and general component inspection. This may seem a tad excessive, and it may seem like you could probably "narrow it down" to a certain part or parts, but if the vehicle was in a front end collision anyhow, I would want to pull it all apart just for inspection for peace of mind as much as anything else.

[daeron]

 

P.S. Daeron, I did check out all the balljoints which have no play. Their boots are cracked but I already have my shopping list of front end pieces... Thanks for the info

 

 

Hey, you fixed it; I was just brainstorming. You found the problem, I am sure.

 

Since you made that string comment, I assume you can cope with the mis alignment

 

Good luck and congrats.

[Ross]

Since you made that string comment, I assume you can cope with the mis alignment

You'd be surprised just how accurate you can get toe in adjustments with a little non-stretchy string and fair bit of patience! +/-1mm or so, which I believe is within factory specs.... or close enough anyway.

[daeron]

You'd be surprised just how accurate you can get toe in adjustments with a little non-stretchy string and fair bit of patience! +/-1mm or so, which I believe is within factory specs.... or close enough anyway.

 

No, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.. I would simply be a lot less lazy than I am :-p

 

 

(I have been "meaning to align my front end" using that method for about a year now )

[samneric]

No, I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.. I would simply be a lot less lazy than I am :-p

 

 

(I have been "meaning to align my front end" using that method for about a year now )

 

Ok so I had the night off yesturday but I plan on doing this 2-nite.

 

Any suggestions on "non-stretchy" string - I have a roll somewhere but I seem to remember it does flex some.

 

I also remember a technique using pins in the tread although this seems inaccurate - Can you measure from the inside if the rims?

 

Steve

[Ross]

Ok so I had the night off yesturday but I plan on doing this 2-nite.

 

Any suggestions on "non-stretchy" string - I have a roll somewhere but I seem to remember it does flex some.

 

I also remember a technique using pins in the tread although this seems inaccurate - Can you measure from the inside if the rims?

 

Steve

 

Definitely best to measure off the rims - best to rig up something that clamps to them and extends out..... Measuring off the tires is always going to be dodgey since the tread waves around a fair bit.....

 

In the past I have used very fine wire instead of string...

[Gloyale]

I use 2 yardsticks. Get under and place the ends of them against the front edge of the rim on the . Mark a line where they overlap, then repeat in the back. Adust until the lines match up front and back.

 

You can assure you are measuring the same point on each rim by taking you're measurments with the sticks pressed up against the underside of the car, in a way that it touches 2 matching points(like the exhaust pipes or the sway bar)

[samneric]

I use 2 yardsticks. Get under and place the ends of them against the front edge of the rim on the . Mark a line where they overlap, then repeat in the back. Adust until the lines match up front and back.

 

You can assure you are measuring the same point on each rim by taking you're measurments with the sticks pressed up against the underside of the car, in a way that it touches 2 matching points(like the exhaust pipes or the sway bar)

 

Thanks for the advice - I'm not quite sure I understand the process though. If I am reading it right, you say be under the car in the middle and hold the sticks against the front edge of the rim, against the lip on each wheel and bring left and right sticks together in the middle and mark the sticks in the middle of where they overlap each other?. That is good for the front edge of the rim, but as you say, the rear edge is blocked by the exhaust/suspension bits so you can't make a connection all the way across.

 

I tried shining my laser measurer across the back edge, through a gap in the suspension bits and managed to get the dot on the other rim but wasn't sure how accurate it would be to duplicate after adjustment.

 

I spent all night firstly trying to get the steering wheel in the middle of the rack and ended up getting the pinion 180 degress out so the wheel is now upside down . The damn UV joint wouldn't slide up the steering shaft cuz the teeth were damaged so I had to drop the rack (again!) to get the coupler off inorder to swing the torque shaft up allowing the UV joint to slide off.

 

Then I set up my DIY measuring system by tying a piece of string to the handle of two buckets, stretching it the length of the car and setting it about 1 foot away and parallel to the frame by measuring at the front and back. I then measured the gap between the string and the lip of the rim at the front and back edges to take the measurements.

 

All was fine and dandy except it was now midnight and the damn tierod lock nuts wouldn't come undone by using two adjustable wrenches so I called it a night and decided to wait until my new tierod and knuckle balljoints came in from NAPA - which should be this afternoon

 

Needless to say, I'm going to be spending the night under the car getting this done and will probably need to take the rack out again inorder to vice the tierods to get the old ones off

 

Oh and the boot from my swapped in axle split to boot - are the NAPA boot kits any good?

 

Steve

[Gloyale]

Thanks for the advice - I'm not quite sure I understand the process though. If I am reading it right, you say be under the car in the middle and hold the sticks against the front edge of the rim, against the lip on each wheel and bring left and right sticks together in the middle and mark the sticks in the middle of where they overlap each other?. That is good for the front edge of the rim, but as you say, the rear edge is blocked by the exhaust/suspension bits so you can't make a connection all the way across.

 

 

You don't have to get the sticks against the very front or rear of the rim(half way up). You can just go as far back and up as you can access. It is possible and I've done it many times. I put them(the sticks) up against the 2 exhaust pipes as a way of ensuring they are level. If you imagine dividing the wheel with lines into 3rds, with one line at top of wheel. You will be measuring from the other 2 points 120 degrees away form the top.

 

any two sticks will do, I ripped a couple planks off an old pallet and reset my alignment on the highway from OR to WI once. I had just converted my GL From non-power to power steering, and just kinda eyeballed the alignment. My toe in was so bad I had scubbed the outer edge of the tires to the cords in just 700 miles. Made the adjustment, and went the rest of the way with no trouble. New tires at the end of the trip.

[samneric]

Alright, now I have my new balljoints on

 

Had to smite the driver's side tie-rod end with my propane torch for a good coupla minutes before it would twist off. I had the rack off the car, tie-rod in a vice and made unsuccessfull attempts with steel pipe extended wrenches before the flames were unleashed.

 

Did the allignment with my laser measurer (1/4" toe-out with 4wd right?). Steering wheel is now in the middle - hurrah!

 

Still had prior symptoms of wheel shaking at all speeds so I took it to have the wheels balanced (I figured that was all there was left - already changed out both axles).

 

Mechanic suggested that low speed vibes came from a dodgy tyre so he switched out the scuffed up drivers side with my spare and hey-presto - no more wheel shake! :clap:

 

I'm going to have the tyre switched over to the regular rim because its in better shape.

 

Only thing now is - the car pulls to the left a little..... Is this to do with tyre differences (make, age, tread thickness etc) or could the wheels still be out of allignment? How does allignment affect steering? I figure if the gap between wheels at front and back are different, the wheels are going to automatically compensate with motion and naturally want to go straight ahead - even if that causes the wheel to go off-center. Am I totally off base on this?

 

Off now to have the rubber mounted on my normal rim...

 

 

You don't have to get the sticks against the very front or rear of the rim(half way up). You can just go as far back and up as you can access. It is possible and I've done it many times. I put them(the sticks) up against the 2 exhaust pipes as a way of ensuring they are level. If you imagine dividing the wheel with lines into 3rds, with one line at top of wheel. You will be measuring from the other 2 points 120 degrees away form the top.