Andy FitzGibbon Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 So, a head gasket started to go out on my GL about a month ago. Never overheated, but was intermittently running rough, steam out the tailpipe, ect. It was during the busy season where I work and there was no chance of me having time to do the job myself, so I took it to a local shop. Bad move. I have dealt with these guys before on other stuff and they seemed competent, but not on this job. First, a guy they had just hired tore my engine down and then quit, leaving the pieces scattered everywhere. The other two guys who work there put it back together with new gaskets, but couldn't get it to run. This went on for quite some time. They swore up and down they had it all in time, and when I quizzed them about how they had done it they quoted pretty much verbatim from the Haynes manual, so I had faith that the got it right. I went in there Thursday, to discover that those two had also quit (car still not running). The boss was very excited, though, as he had "found the reason my car wouldn't start"- he had found some pushrods on a shelf next to where all the parts for my car were. I politely let him know that my EA82 is a hydraulic lifter engine, and what would 12 pushrods be doing in a 4 cyl. boxer anyway. I then got his permission to get it running by myself. After correcting the timing belt setup and the distributor position, which were both way off, it started (I think they thought I was a god for doing this). Here's my problem: I now have a car that runs, just about as well as before, but the tick of death is now almost constant and worse than it was, and I've got white smoke out of the tailpipe off and on. I haven't messed with it enough yet to find out if there is coolant leaking into the oil or cylinders, or if I just need to flush the crankcase a couple times to get the residual gunk out. I also ended up with a container of extra bolts, some of which I recognize and some of which I don't. I am torn as to weather I should tear it all down and do the job myself, or just take my chances and drive it. I only paid for the parts for the job, so I am not in the hole too bad on it. The worst is that I didn't have a car for a month and now I have one that is less reliable than the one with blown head gaskets:mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobcob Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 Tell them to fix it right, if they're not willing then file with the Better Business Bureau... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjw Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 I agree with cobcob. Take it back and ask that they fix it right. Sounds like it cant get any worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted August 24, 2007 Author Share Posted August 24, 2007 Read my post again, especially the part where I describe how I had to go in and do the timing belts and distributor myself, because they couldn't figure out how, even using the Haynes manual. I don't want these guys touching any of my vehicles again. I could take it somewhere else, and threaten them with legal action if they don't pay to have it fixed right, but I don't want to get into that game. So far I have only paid for the parts, and that's all I'm going to pay for- after me having to fix my own car in their shop, I doubt that they will have the balls to ask me for any more money. That's one advantage of going to the dealer if you don't want to work on something yourself- if they screw it up, it's much easier to get them to make it right. I had that happen at the Toyota dealer a few years ago, and they fixed it immediately for free, no questions. I have been messing with the car all afternoon and it's running a lot better. The head gaskets seem to be holding fine, though it's impossible to know how long that will be the case. The TOD is diminishing, and I think it will be gone after a couple quick oil changes. And there's been no more smoke (steam, really) from the exhaust. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjw Posted August 24, 2007 Share Posted August 24, 2007 I gotta tell you, I dont drive anything I cant work on/fix myself. Exactly for the reasons your talking about here. Not to say all mechanics are shady 'cause I know of a few Good and Honest ones, but like you said, "I dont want to get into that Game", ever. My wife drives a new gmc something or rather and only the dealer garage ever touches it. I feel for you man. Maybe your right, cut your losses and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 I agree. Don't let them touch it. Sounds like it's ok now. The legal rout wouldn't be worth the cost, too small amount of $. Keep a close eye on the coolant. Maybe the intake manifold gasket/s are intermittantly leaking. I found it helps a lot to put the manifold on (no super tight) while bolting down the heads. The head sfloat around a bit, and this keeps them aligned with the manifold. As you tighten the head bolts, loosen the manifold bolts & retighten to relive any stress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subaru_dude Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Well, it could be intake manifold gaskets. Try spraying brake cleaner around the intake manifold gaskets and see if the engine changes idle speed. If it does then obviously they need to be replaced. And I know more than just a couple mechanics that just can't get their head wraped around a boxer 4. They just don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted August 25, 2007 Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 It seems to be running fine now. In fact, perhaps a little better than the weeks leading up to the head gasket failure. Now the only unknowns are how long the gaskets will hold and where all those extra bolts go:-\ I am going to have to do timing belts soon on it anyway (should have replaced them while it was apart, but I just wanted to get it out of there), so I will probably tear the intake off at that point and give the whole thing a little closer inspection. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveT Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 and where all those extra bolts go:-\ Could you post a picture of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Could you post a picture of them? Good call, that should be easy enough.... My question.. Does this shop that you went to have a better garage, and better working conditions, than you have at home? If so, convince them to let you do the timing belt job in their shop, and when you do so, put everything they left out back into place. Make sure that they REALIZE that you are just putting the "spare parts" they left you back in, and putting new timing belts on while you've got the engine apart anyhow. Buy the belts elsewhere, and don't give them a dime.. just use their air, electricity, space, and tools to make the job easier. AND kinda be a thorn in their side. Just a thought, probably nothing more than the lunatic ravings of a diseased mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted August 25, 2007 Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 Their garage isn't so full of crap as mine is... however, since the last mechanics quit, I think I have more tools than they do. I pretty much want to just stay away from the place anyway. I will post a picture of the bolts this morning. Thanks for the replies, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted August 25, 2007 Author Share Posted August 25, 2007 Here's what's left: The bolts on the right are the type used for the timing belt covers. I had to leave a couple out because the inserts in the cover were stripped, but I didn't leave out five. Are these used anywhere else on the car? The bracket next to them I don't have a clue on. The bolts on the far left I suspect don't go with my car, and the ones between them and the bracket do, but I don't know where. Ideas are appreciated. Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted August 25, 2007 Share Posted August 25, 2007 Here's what's left: The bolts on the right are the type used for the timing belt covers. I had to leave a couple out because the inserts in the cover were stripped, but I didn't leave out five. Are these used anywhere else on the car? The bracket next to them I don't have a clue on. The bolts on the far left I suspect don't go with my car, and the ones between them and the bracket do, but I don't know where. Ideas are appreciated. Thanks, Andy The ones on right are timing cover bolts. I think some of them may be the ones that hold the inner timing cover on. The bracket looks like the bracket that holds the dipstcik tube? The bolt w/ nut in the center is for the lower most, drivers side Timing cover, and the other bolts of teh same size are for the outer end timing covers. The larger bolt in the center may be for the dipstick, or could be for one of the timing tensioner bolts, which would be bad. I think you are right about the bolts on the left not going to you're car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted August 26, 2007 Author Share Posted August 26, 2007 I'm pretty sure I checked around and got at least most of the inner timing cover bolts in. I was sort of in a hurry to get it done and out of there, however, so maybe I missed more than I thought I did. The dipstick tube is all in place correctly, and so are all the bolts for the timing belt tensioners. It could be that they used bolts that were not original to the car for some things, and therefore had these left over. So far, I've driven the car around a lot and nothing has fallen off:lol: Thanks for the ID work. Best, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 valve cover bolts and timing cover bolts are first cousins, could they be valve cover bolts? Also, that bracket looks like the sort of thing that is used to retain a relay or plug or other such thingy.. probably superflous in the grand scheme of things. Look at the relays hanging from the passnger side shock tower and you'll see what I mean. Longish bolt on the right side of the center unknown group is probably to hold that bracket wherever it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted August 26, 2007 Author Share Posted August 26, 2007 They're not valve cover bolts, though two were missing when I first fired it up, and oil puked all over the floor of the shop. I feel the same way about the bracket, it looks like an electrical plug of some sort should fit into it. Heck, it may not even be for my car. Still no issues, I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yzerman19 Posted August 31, 2007 Share Posted August 31, 2007 I just did my first engine removal and full gasket job. It's really not all that complicated. An engine stand makes it NICE. Do a gasket, spin the engine, do a gasket, spin the engine..... You seem to have your head screwed on right, I'd bet you could do it yourself easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted September 10, 2007 Author Share Posted September 10, 2007 One let loose today. Oh well, almost made it a month Guess I'm doing it myself this time. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 the headgaskets were probably supposed to be retorqued, and may have held had that been done. the Subaru FSM and probably Haynes mentions retorquing the headgaskets. almost every EA82 headgasket is supposed to be retorqued. some notes on the EA82 headgaskets - use Fel-Pro permatorques. most other gaskets (Subaru gasket included) require retorquing the heads. these are designed not to require a retorque and are highly regarded on this board. use them and increase your final torque settings by 5pounds for good measure, though that's not necessary probably if you insist upon "by the book". they are excellent gaskets and save you all the hassle of retorquing. they will be indicated by a fel-pro part number starting with "PT" also make sure to have the heads machined and clean the head bolts and holes to get a proper torque on them. seating of the headgasket is critical and the bolts/holes are usually horribly dirty or corroded on EA82's. all of the smoke and ticking after your original start up is very normal for this job. very common for coolant or oil to get where it shouldn't particularly in the exhaust, while driving, sitting and seaping and during disassembly. takes awhile to burn out. and the HLA's are typicallly noisey too after having the engine part, they usually quiet up after a few minutes of driving. so don't worry about that all happening the first time, it's not a bad sign and don't be surprised if you get some of it again this time around. i'm in morgantown, should be visiting elkins some time this year. good luck with it and have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 of the set in the middle - the one on the lower right row. if it has a washer that doesn't really come off, it looks exactly like one of the water pump bolts. make sure they are in place. the two to the left (one has a nut on it) of that resemble distributor hold down bolts. the two larger bolts above it look like timing pulley/tensioner bolts but could be for something else too. the one on the set to the left is an exhaust stud with the nut. they may have removed an a/c or alternator bracket and not replaced all of the bolts, there are a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted September 11, 2007 Author Share Posted September 11, 2007 The Haynes manual doesn't actually mention retorquing the head, which is surprising to me. A few weeks ago I pulled off the pass. side cover and every bolt I checked was to spec (47 lbs). I'm not sure what kind of gaskets they used, but this was after about 100 miles of driving. Didn't check the driver's side (as we know, much harder to get to) because I figured there was probably a 50/50 chance it would be OK. I'm actually kind of glad they went, because now I will know it's done right and won't have to constantly worry about getting stranded somewhere. Thanks for the tip on the Fel-Pros, I will pick up a set of those. Not having to retorque the heads would be quite a time saver. I'm know these guys didn't have the heads machined and expect they probably didn't even check them for flatness. So even if they did torque them all to spec it was only a matter of time before they went again, probably. The tick went away after I re-changed the oil. Then I ran some ATF through it and it started up again. Ordered new oil pump seals and will inspect pump while I'm doing the gaskets. I'm going to pull the engine out to do all this, I think, so I'll be able to figure out where all the extra bolts go. Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I'm know these guys didn't have the heads machined yep, i'm with you, i'd rather know they are done right. machining the heads is absolutely critical to the headgasket sealing properly. not just the flatness, but the finish is important as well. as for pulling the engine, that is way overkill on these engines in my oppinion. the EA82 is fairly easy to do in the car...if you have air tools i definitely wouldn't do it in the car. the cam towers and heads come off super quick and with air tools and cleaning the head bolt holes is a breeze as well. clearance looks tight, but once the valve covers are out it's a walk in the park. in the time it takes to pull and install the engine i can remove both heads and be on my way to cleaning up things with air tools. there's one tool that helps a ton - a wratcheting 10mm wrench, makes the valve covers go from annoying to a breeze. the pull or not pull thing has been addressed a billion times, so i'm not trying to start that again, but wanted you to know that the EA82 is actually cake to do in the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 the pull or not pull thing has been addressed a billion times, so i'm not trying to start that again, but wanted you to know that the EA82 is actually cake to do in the car. +1 for doing the job in the car. Unless there is some other reason to pull the motor.(resealing the oil pan or the rear main seal, new clutch, extracting a broken head bolt.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted September 11, 2007 Author Share Posted September 11, 2007 OK, I will give that issue some more thought. My main reason for pulling it was that I felt like I might do a better job with it sitting on the bench rather than contorted around under the hood. Maybe when I get all the peripheral stuff off it will look better to me. I don't have air tools but I think I do have a ratcheting 10mm. Ordered gaskets today, including Permatorques. Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Ordered gaskets today, including Permatorques. you just did yourself a big favor their. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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