Failed Emissions worse then the 1st time

[joebmx]

So i took the car in for its emissions test and it failed with High HC's in idle and high CO during cruise. I didn't have much idea what to do so I took care of the oil leak, got a new gas cap, cleaned my pcv valve and hoses (they were disgusting) Changed the PCV and Air Filters, took care of a coolant leak, gave it fresh oil, brought it in plenty warmed up for the test and it failed the same way but with way higher numbers.

In fact everything increased. for example my HC emissions at idle went from 256 to 390, at cruise they went from 113 to 124 and my CO at idle went .13 to .14, and 1.52 to 1.82 at cruise. My idle also went from 1080 to 1110.

 

I figured since my numbers were so close to passing in the first place what i did would have done the job. Would plugs, wires etc.. do the trick?

They didn't look all that bad though they are probably 3 years old now. The car had been off the road for a long while.

[86BRATMAN]

What car are you dealing with. Knowing the system you are working on can give us a better idea of how to help you. Changing the plugs and wires can't really hurt, inspect them and see what condition before deciding to buy or not.

[joebmx]

Its an 87 GL wagon EA 82 Carb

The plugs and wires etc...all seem to be in good shape not crusted over or worn looking. Though the wires on it are auto lite. I know this group seems to be pro NGK. The plugs are ngk though.

[daeron]

i think i said it already.. alcohol.

 

Alcohol.

 

it works. its easy. its cheap. it is a rare rare rare opportunity to have it fast, easy, good, AND cheap; take advantage of it!

[joebmx]

I figured that was what someone was goiing to say.

I will give it a try since my gas tank is running low anyways. and I will post my test results without any other tinkering.

I would still like to have an idea of what is happening with the emissions system.

[DaveT]

I would still like to have an idea of what is happening with the emissions system.

 

Put on NGK wires. Are the plugs clean? If it was burning oil , they could be fouled. How old is the O2 sensor?

 

Take a drive. Long enough to heat up fully. Measure the temp of the exhaust pipe before and after each catalytic converter. Best if done at something like 1500RPM. The temperature should be higher AFTER each cat.

[4x4_Welder]

It's running rich right now. Is the choke opening all the way, and does the car get up to full operating temperature?

[joebmx]

So the temp gauge reads at just about the middle maybe a little bit below,

I will have to check on the choke though I do think it is open.

One thing I am realizing as i write this, as i pulled off my pcv hoses and some vacuum lines to clean them some were cracked right where they attached. I brought 2 hoses to the carquest to get replaced and they said they didn't have what i needed and i ended up forgetting about it.

Where would be the place to get new vacuum lines? Could this be the problem?

[joebmx]

By the way where the heck does the o2 sensor live. I have peaked around before but had no luck.

[TomRhere]

O2 lives in the front converter, between where the 2 pipes from the engine attach to it.

 

As far as new vac and PCV lines. You won't find any of the formed hoses, so you'll have to improvise. 5/8" heater hose will work for the PCV hoses. Any Parts Store should be able to match the smaller vac lines as far as size goes.

[s'ko]

since your pcv valve and hose was all dirty and stuff. You might be the built up crap blowing through the system right now. This may be that cause of your higher number. Maybe a seafoam treatment would first clear the crap out and add the alcohol. (denatured).

 

good luck

[joebmx]

So I went for it. I added some seafoam to the mix. gas, carb and oil.

Car smoked like crazy, as I was expecting and then nothing. Seemed good but to ensure that I would pass emissions I added a gallon of denatured alcohol and the result............................

It still failed. It goes a little beyond that though. The O2 emssions were great! .26 at cruise and .006 at idle. Sweet!!

And the HC count, 2242 at cruise and 2050 at idle. up a mere 2100ppm's for each. What gives?

The car doesn't seem to be running quite as well since the seafoam either. Less power overall and a little rough at idle. I have driven it about 30 miles in all since putting that stuff in. I also noticed something new after using the seafoam, a giant puddle of sludge under the component in the linked pic.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22619255@N00/1435304171/

Notice the crap on the wheel well at the back of the pic.

What is the part? Why would it potentially have blown out all that crud and how do i know if it is still good? Everything around it is clean so I wouldn't imagine something else having contributed to the mess plus the under side of the part is covered in the crud as well.

Guide me please.

[DaveT]

And the HC count, 2242 at cruise and 2050 at idle. up a mere 2100ppm's for each..

 

HC come from unburned fuel.

Assuming the engine doesn't burn lots of oil-

Good air cleaner-

Running at normal temperature 190 degrees - must check with a thermometer.

 

I've had bad wires that look ok, especially brands other than NGK.

Plugs should be checked for fouling.

 

The thermosensor that the emmissions control system uses to tell the engine temp. - if it fails the right way, the engine will be running rich. - I'm not 100% about this, I only have SPFI cars. I have not had this problem, only heard it can happen.

 

Do the exhaust temp checks as mentioned in a previous post to check the cats.

 

It's been a while, but I bought a thermocouple thermometer from Sears / craftsman for about $25.00. It works for both tests.

 

If the HCs are high long enough, the catalytic converters will fail.

 

O2 sensor should only effect the CO.

[joebmx]

Sorry if I wasn't clear with this the first time around. My HC count worries me because prior to the seafoam and alcohol, it passed at cruise and just barely failed at idle. I will post the results from 2 consecutive tests later this evening. So why has it gone from 1xx ppm and 2xx ppm to 2200ppm?

Uhg....

[DaveT]

So why has it gone from 1xx ppm and 2xx ppm to 2200ppm?

 

I'm not trying to be difficult.

 

Without the troubleshooting data, I can only guess. Maybe some crud got loose and is bothering soomething. Maybe a coincidence. I am not familiar with seafoam 1st hand. I have never tried the alcohol trick. The only way I know to find the problem is by slogging through the troubleshooting. At this point, everything is suspect. I tried to list from most common / easy to check to least common / hard or expensive to check.

 

In this, like electronics, many times you only find the answer by checking many things, ruling out the ones that aren't bad, then finding the one that's causing the problem. You don't know until you find it. There is more than one way to have the same symptom. It's not A => X, its more like A or B or C or D (...) => X.

 

Another easy / cheap one: Check / clean the MAF also.

 

The thing in your picture could be the anti-afterburning valve. I was hoping for someone with a carbed car to recognize it.

[joebmx]

I completely understand where you are coming from and going with all of this and in light of my emissions being nowhere near passing i need to look into other causes, i.e. the ones you mentioned.

What perplexes me is that the car was so close to passing having done a number of fixes that running a cleaner through the system should have made things better instead of worse. Now the numbers are so f'd I don't know how much affect any repair will have.

 

I plan on running the tank dry filling it up and running it dry again doing the 2 things I thought I could get by w/o doing fresh plugs/wires, and new vacuum hoses. I will also be checking my O2 sensor this week, checking the engine temp and cat temp. We will see where this all gets me.

 

In the meantime what has been peoples experience with seafoam? What the heck is the piece in the pic 2 posts back? Why did it blow sludge and what can I do about it?

 

Before SeaFoam and Alcohol

 

After Seafoam...

[azsubaru]

I 've used both Seafoam and the denatured alcohol in my attempts to pass emissions, but mine is SPFI.

 

First, I tried the alcohol, but it didn't help at all in my case, numbers came out same as before.

 

Next tried the Seafoam. It helped some, but not enough. I would recommend burning all of the Seafoam out of your tank before going in for the test. It's cleaning things out, but it could be interferring with fuel burning.

 

So what did help? I'm not sure.

I changed my rear cat and muffler, plus I changed the oil, tightened the cap down, changed all the filters, got new plugs, wires, disty cap and rotor, plus replaced the PCV valve along with every hose I could find, and cleaned the MAF and idle air valve. Finally passed this time, way below the limits. My CEL was on at the time, but that's allowed here on older vehicles.

 

I did have some RXP "guaranteed to pass" in the tank when I finally passed, but don't know if it really did anything.

[s'ko]

I 've used both Seafoam and the denatured alcohol in my attempts to pass emissions, but mine is SPFI.

 

First, I tried the alcohol, but it didn't help at all in my case, numbers came out same as before.

 

Next tried the Seafoam. It helped some, but not enough. I would recommend burning all of the Seafoam out of your tank before going in for the test. It's cleaning things out, but it could be interferring with fuel burning.

 

So what did help? I'm not sure.

I changed my rear cat and muffler, plus I changed the oil, tightened the cap down, changed all the filters, got new plugs, wires, disty cap and rotor, plus replaced the PCV valve along with every hose I could find, and cleaned the MAF and idle air valve. Finally passed this time, way below the limits. My CEL was on at the time, but that's allowed here on older vehicles.

 

I did have some RXP "guaranteed to pass" in the tank when I finally passed, but don't know if it really did anything.

 

I second the burn the seafoam stuff out of your tank. With my BRAT and the old EA81 engine when I had HC numbers that high it was due to oil blow-by. I think most people use the seafoam for their fuel systems. I know it says you can put it into your crankcase oil, but it might have thinned the oil out and it's now blowing through the rings.

 

I am very hesistant in using anything in the crankcase that is thinner than motor oil. You might have to change the oil and use see it that will help.

 

BW