Hydraulic Lifter replacement

[yzerman19]

90 Loyale, 1.8, non-turbo, 4wd, 270,000 miles

 

I just finished re-installing the engine from a full gasket set job.

I rationalized my way out of doing a valve job while I had the engine out somehow.

 

I fired her back up yesterday and wouldn't you know it? An raise the hair on the back of the neck "CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK....." from the cylinder 1-3 side.

 

I'm assuming a bad lifter (or two, or three, or all) so I plan on doing all four on that side. Yes, just the four on that side. Those things ain't cheap.

 

Anyway, I understand the basic concept of removing the timing belt, removing the cam, removing the rockers/lifters, inserting the new lifters, etc, etc.

 

Do I need to prime the new lifters at all?

 

Any comments/suggestions/lessons learned would be great. Parts arrive Saturday.

 

Wish me luck. I need to get this 60 mile a day commuter back on the road.

[keppelk]

90 Loyale, 1.8, non-turbo, 4wd, 270,000 miles

 

I just finished re-installing the engine from a full gasket set job.

I rationalized my way out of doing a valve job while I had the engine out somehow.

 

I fired her back up yesterday and wouldn't you know it? An raise the hair on the back of the neck "CLICK CLICK CLICK CLICK....." from the cylinder 1-3 side.

 

I'm assuming a bad lifter (or two, or three, or all) so I plan on doing all four on that side. Yes, just the four on that side. Those things ain't cheap.

 

Anyway, I understand the basic concept of removing the timing belt, removing the cam, removing the rockers/lifters, inserting the new lifters, etc, etc.

 

Do I need to prime the new lifters at all?

 

Any comments/suggestions/lessons learned would be great. Parts arrive Saturday.

 

Wish me luck. I need to get this 60 mile a day commuter back on the road.

 

Theres a company in the USA somewhere that rebuilds the HLAs. Mitzpah something. If you have a dig around the forum and find their website they rebuild HLAs cheaply. Even if you don't return yours the core charge isn't very much. I was looking at getting a new set sent to me in NZ.

[subaruguru]

eh i was gonna say i put new ones in an ea82 1.8 and a wrist pin went so they are just setting in a ziplock baggie in oil. i paid 200 for all 8 but id sell them for 100 bucks flat.

[azsubaru]

Take it on a long drive first and see if they quieten down. Mine were really loud for a half hour or so, but then quietened down to an acceptable level.

[Gloyale]

It's very common for those HLA to get air in them while sitting out of the engine. It's not unussual for these engines to tick for a while after a rebuild.

 

Take it on a long drive. If it persists, add about a half Quart of ATF to the oil, this helps unstick them and work bubbles through. Change the oil after about 500-100 miles or a few weeks.

[yzerman19]

Hmmmm, I had no idea this was something that could 'go away', I'm pleased.

 

Although the lifters never left the head during the gasket kit job, they sure may have emptied.

 

I'll finish tuning her up (and cleaning her up) and take a drive. I guess I was paranoid of causing more damage with that loud clicking going on.

 

I'll also check into the re-build place for future reference.

 

Thanks for the replies guys!

 

subaruguru: hold that thought

[daeron]

Hmmmm, I had no idea this was something that could 'go away', I'm pleased.

 

Although the lifters never left the head during the gasket kit job, they sure may have emptied.

 

I'll finish tuning her up (and cleaning her up) and take a drive. I guess I was paranoid of causing more damage with that loud clicking going on.

 

I'll also check into the re-build place for future reference.

 

Thanks for the replies guys!

 

subaruguru: hold that thought

 

 

That took me a moment, to figure out how you did that... left the lifters in the heads.. but then I realized that you yanked the engine.

 

When I did my head gaskets, I left the motor in the car; the lifters all came out as a part of this process (its kinda hard to avoid, the book actually warns you to put cardboard down in case you drop them)

 

If you are really concerned, they are not all that hard to pull and check without removing the engine. A ratcheting 10mm box wrench (easily obtainable thru harbor freight tools as part of a set for like, 10-15 bucks) makes removing the valve cover bolts (especially on the driver side) MUCH easier. The book also says that for temporary storage while the engine is in pieces, the HLAs should be left sitting in at least an inch of motor oil.

 

To "check" the HLA's, make sure they are full of oil and try to depress them. You shouldnt be able to press them down very much; BARELY detectable is OK, but much beyond that and you get into "beyond spec;" However, I have several in my engine that are minimally "beyond spec" and it seems to run fine; I don't get much (very infrequent) ticking anyhow.

 

Really, there seems to be no sense in replacing all four just for the sake.. find which ones are weak and replace them. It isn't like replacing only one brake pad

[idosubaru]

When I did my head gaskets, I left the motor in the car; the lifters all came out as a part of this process (its kinda hard to avoid, the book actually warns you to put cardboard down in case you drop them

you're talking about the rocker arms that fall off. the "lifters", the HLA's or Hydraulic Valve Lash Adjusters often stay in the head and are difficult to remove sometimes, no matter if the engine is out or in.

[daeron]

you're talking about the rocker arms that fall off. the "lifters", the HLA's or Hydraulic Valve Lash Adjusters often stay in the head and are difficult to remove sometimes, no matter if the engine is out or in.

 

 

Mine sure weren't stuck; I had more difficulty with dropping the lifters than rocker arms. My engine came apart beautifully, though; I didn't even have to blink on the intake manifold bolts.

 

If I was wrong on what the book quotes, its because of the experience I had.

 

I hate having to put my foot in my mouth...

[idosubaru]

more difficulty dropping the lifters verses the rocker arms? the rocker arms can not physically stay in place without falling when you're disassembling, it's impossible, so every single one will drop every single time the cam carrier is removed. where the lifters typically lie in the bores.

 

i've never seen an HLA/lifter come out while the engine is in the vehicle, so that is definitely an odd experience to think of them sliding out on their own. they lie on their sides so to speak, parallel to the ground.

 

hopefully he has the same experience, i've had a few that did not come out with penetrating oil and heat...with the head off it doesnt matter the machine shop gets them. with the engine in the car hopefully his come right out.

[daeron]

more difficulty dropping the lifters verses the rocker arms? the rocker arms can not physically stay in place without falling when you're disassembling, it's impossible, so every single one will drop every single time the cam carrier is removed. where the lifters typically lie in the bores.

 

i've never seen an HLA/lifter come out while the engine is in the vehicle, so that is definitely an odd experience to think of them sliding out on their own. they lie on their sides so to speak, parallel to the ground.

 

hopefully he has the same experience, i've had a few that did not come out with penetrating oil and heat...with the head off it doesnt matter the machine shop gets them. with the engine in the car hopefully his come right out.

 

I am trying to remember specifics.. I know i had problems with both, because in the end despite all my methodolgy i was not 100% that each rocker and each HLA went back in the same spot it came from. I do know that at least one of each wound up on my cardboard, and I recall being surprised at how well the rockers hung on (most of them anyhow)

 

beyond that, I will simply shut up.

[hooziewhatsit]

when I resealed my 91 loyale, some of the lifters wanted to come out, some didn't.

 

I had pretty good TOD in it, which has mostly been cured by a new oil pump. I'll wait another oil change or two for the last lifter to quiet down. If it doesn't by then, I'll have to dig in again and replace it

 

http://www.mizpahprecision.com/pricing.htm

 

-Dave

[Gloyale]

more difficulty dropping the lifters verses the rocker arms? the rocker arms can not physically stay in place without falling when you're disassembling, it's impossible, so every single one will drop every single time the cam carrier is removed. where the lifters typically lie in the bores.

 

Not if you jack that side of the car up a bit and support it. Then unbolt the mount and lift the engine up on that side a bit more relative to the car. it helps with access too.

[yzerman19]

Well, after some further thought, I think I'm going in and replacing the lifters. I remember 'ticking' (but not as obvious) before I pulled the engine so waiting for it to 'go away' might not be the best choice.

 

I learned a lesson: do a valve job while the engine is out! Loyale parts are always 'ordered' around here so I wasn't ready when I had the engine apart and this is my daily commuter so time is of the essence. Oh well, it doesn't look all that complicated after the experiance of pulling and re-installing the engine.

 

Gloyale, you read my mind. I was planning on jacking that side up in hopes of creating a different gravity vector on the rockers, then lifting the engine a tad for more access. This should help things from falling all over the place. If they fall, I'm sure I'll still recover okay. Then I'll just have more room/better access to pick them off the floor! HA

[PoorManzImpreza]

when I had my engine apart and got it back together I had clatter from hell and it was taking for ever to go away..so after waiting a half hour for it 2 go away, I revved the engine up 2 3k and held it there for 12 minutes and each minute they got quieter and quieter until the clatter vanished completely...

[yzerman19]

I took it out for a long country drive today (55-60 mph) with hopes it would 'go away', no such luck. Since it was ticking before, yet not this bad, I just better do the right thing and replace them (or just the bad one).

[daeron]

I took it out for a long country drive today (55-60 mph) with hopes it would 'go away', no such luck. Since it was ticking before, yet not this bad, I just better do the right thing and replace them (or just the bad one).

Wise. I linked you to the FSM already, didn't I? That is where I read how to "check" them. Should be in "part 1.pdf"

[Gloyale]

I took it out for a long country drive today (55-60 mph) with hopes it would 'go away', no such luck. Since it was ticking before, yet not this bad, I just better do the right thing and replace them (or just the bad one).

 

You may be saddened to find that the tick may not go away with new lifters. Honestly, The ticking is ussually caused by aerated oil (bad pump seals). If you are going to replace anything, i'd start with those. Then I'd try a halfquart of ATF in the oil for a few hundred miles. These HLA's are stationary, and really have no way to *wear out*. The've either gt bubbles in them or are sticky, either way, replacing the HLA's themselves is work that's not nessecary to fix. Think about it, these are the same HLAs as before, and nothing has physically changed them, they just bled out and got air trapped in them while off the engine.

 

It won't hurt anything to replace them, I'm just affraid you're throwing money and parts at something that is not the *real* problem.

 

Oh yeah, and how would a *valve job* have helped with this ticking? Lapping the valves has nothing to do with the HLAs?

[yzerman19]

I did the pump seals (included in a full gasket set). Also, as I said earlier, the lifters never left the head. I had the engine on a stand so I was able to turn the engine vertical each time I removed the heads.

 

I'll give it a few trips to work and back (highway, 28 miles each way) and see what happens. I did add a little less than half of a bottle of seafoam to the oil.

 

As for the valve job, the cylinders were black and had a lot of black flaking inside.

 

 

[idosubaru]

These HLA's are stationary, and really have no way to *wear out*.

they do seize though and will tick. if they are seized you can often tell (every time i've seen them) by removing the cam and putting a straight edge across the top of the HLA's. the seized one will be at a different height than the rest. and you can usually tell if they're seized as the ticking will be isolated to one cylinder so you already know which ones to look at ahead of time. then they are obvious when you go to compress them, the good ones will compress the seized ones will not. the seized ones i've seen wouldnt' compress after soaking for days and using heat.

 

but...i'm with GLOYALE, it's very rare for them to seize and i wouldn't expect them to seize without severe abuse - infrequent oil changes or contaminates in the oil - like coolant or antifreeze. TOD is usually solved by resealing the oil pump, or a new oil pump.

[yzerman19]

Before the gasket set job, I added a quart every week. An oil change every four weeks, HA HA. My coolant levels have always remained correct.

[yzerman19]

Turns out I have to crack that side open again anyway. Looks like my left cam is still leaking into/under the belt covers. I put a new 'main' seal on it but forgot to swap out the smaller o-ring. Also, maybe I just didn't seat the main one all the way. We'll see.

 

Thanks for all your replies folks, I'll get her straight eventually.

[Prospeeder]

Yea my RX when i first brought it back to life, i thought it was knocking! I was so scard! But it turned out to be the lifters screaming, after like a few days of driving the car ran amazingly quiet, i couldnt belive people have constant ticking as mine didnt. My cars oil gauge always read above 0 at hot idle, and it never ticked, even on the coldest days, it ticked maybe for a few seconds on 0 degreee start up days but it went quiet shortly. You can easily do the oil pump seals wrong, thats stupid little mickey mouse gasket can get pinched or disloged and crap.

[yzerman19]

Since it clicked/knocked before the engine job, and now it's worse, and I gotta fix the cam leak, I'll just find the 'broken' lifter and change it out.

[yzerman19]

Ahhhhhh, the sound (or lack thereof) from the 1-3 side is beautiful. Four new lifters in place.

But gosh, now the right side is obviously knocking pretty good. HA HA It never ends does it?

 

I'm not saddened by the results at all Gloyale.

 

Recall that this Loyale has 270,000 miles on it. Is it so hard to believe the lifters went bad?

 

After removing/installing the engine, and now this job, the right side is going to have to wait. Maybe the seafoam I put in the oil will work its magic all of a sudden.