kellen Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 93 legacy L wagon I was driving today and car died. I spent a lot of time turning it over and over, no sign of spark... nothin. Its getting gas and the fuel pump is whirring away... I jumped the gun and replaced the coil pack. Still no spark. I'm getting OBD code 13 (cam angle sensor) and code 32 ( Oxygen sensor) I'm going tomorrow to clean cam angle sensor(maybe it got dirty), if that doesn't work I'll replace it. If that doesn't work maybe I'll replace the Ingiter. I've also read that it could be bad battery cables, even though it turns over... Could the timing belt have broke? I bought car at 130k and it has 170k, no repair history... suposed to be done at 100k. If that doesn't work. ************. thanks in advance Kellen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 Interval for the belt is 60k, so if it were done at 120 then you have 50 on it. If it were done pre-emptively at 110 or 115 you would be approaching the lifespan of the belt right now. I would definately take the 5 minutes to remove the outer belt covers and make sure the belt is turning and the cams are turning when you crank it. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 93 legacy L wagon I was driving today and car died. I spent a lot of time turning it over and over, no sign of spark... nothin. Its getting gas and the fuel pump is whirring away... I jumped the gun and replaced the coil pack. Still no spark. I'm getting OBD code 13 (cam angle sensor)[...] Could the timing belt have broke? [...] Your description could certainly fit the symptoms of a broken timing belt. However, sometimes the failure isn't complete; the belt could be loose, jumped, or have one or two stripped teeth, so you may need to check for more than just whether the belt and cams are turning. Fortunately, the 2.2L from '93 is non-interference, so if the belt is bad, just replacing it (and at 170k and no repair history, probably idlers and tensioner) will likely get things back to normal. By the way, does cranking the engine sound the same as usual? Besides not firing, a broken or significantly jumped t-belt will cause sounds during cranking to be "unusual", since the valves obviously won't be synchronized with piston movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 Hi. Focus on the code 13 first. The vehicle will start and run without the o2 sensor, but not without the cam angle sensor. Check the cam angle sensor. It is located at the back of the LH (driver side) cam cover. Make sure it is firmly mounted and the connector is on and looks good. If those look good maybe take the sensor out, tap it some, etc., put it back in and see if it works. There are some tests you can do for the sensor with an analog voltmeter. I can post more details if desired. Here is where the cam angle sensor is. This pic has the timing covers off and some other parts removed, but should give you a general idea of where to look. It's near the engine oil filler cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrturbo Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 Sounds like a belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 Would you get code 13 if the timing belt broke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 Would you get code 13 if the timing belt broke? The ECU senses the crank sensor, but not the cam sensor - it thinks the sensor is broken because it doesn't see the cam turning. That's the most likely scenario anyway. It's possible that the cam sensor went out, but WAY more likely given his mileage that the belt went. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellen Posted September 22, 2007 Author Share Posted September 22, 2007 I changed the cam sensor and it dodn't fix it. Then I removed a cam cover and found the timing belt was just laying there split in two. I've been told by a few people that I should also replace the tensoners and idle thingies... Even the Water Pump... I purchased all and its going to cost me 380.00... Who knows the last time this has been done. thanks everone for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 ON cars with 60,000 mile intervals, at every other belt change: Water pump Tensioner Idler Belt (of course) Drive belts optional Check the oil pump I dont know how these engines are on seals, but i would replace them as long as i'm there. This way you dont have to touch the front of the engine till the next timing belt change, and even then your only chainging the belt. nipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 I've been told by a few people that I should also replace the tensoners and idle thingies... Even the Water Pump... I purchased all and its going to cost me 380.00... I just did mine and it didn't even cost $200 for everything. OEM parts too. Lookup Discount Import Parts here in Oregon - they do mail order I'm sure. VERY excelent parts and prices. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 The ECU senses the crank sensor, but not the cam sensor - it thinks the sensor is broken because it doesn't see the cam turning.Ah ok thanks. Well it must be since it did turn out to be the timing belt! Yes check the oil pump rear case cover screws for backing out if it hasn't been checked previously, as this did happen on earlier 2.2L's. If your front cam and crank seals are still the older black style (that tended to leak) might as well update them with the newer brownish style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellen Posted September 24, 2007 Author Share Posted September 24, 2007 I just did mine and it didn't even cost $200 for everything. OEM parts too. Lookup Discount Import Parts here in Oregon - they do mail order I'm sure. VERY excelent parts and prices. GD What did the 200.00 include? Memphis, TN has a very low population of subarus, especially mid 90's... older than that are non-existent. There is on subaru dealer here in a town of 1 million. Plus I needed the parts yesterday. :0 Thanks for the tip, i'll be utilizing them next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellen Posted September 24, 2007 Author Share Posted September 24, 2007 After reading articles by Endwrench and Motor mag all about changing Tbelts. I realized what I did wrong! On the Crankshaft pully sprocket there is an arrow and a notch. I used the arrow. Yeah! Any tips on holding the pulley in place while I torque the crankshaft bolt? There are a few special tools that I have no Idea where to get... on said to insert prybar through bellhousing into flywheel to lock engine... Would that work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 Using a prybar on the flywheel to hold the shaft will work fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 On the Crankshaft pully sprocket there is an arrow and a notch. I used the arrow.Whoops! Fortunately that is a non-interference engine so no damage was done. Any tips on holding the pulley in place while I torque the crankshaft bolt? If it's a manual trans, put it in 5th and set the parking brake that should be sufficient. Prybar inserted into the bellhousing works well and is fairly easy to do. On my 2.2L, if you look kind of along the plane of the starter near the top of the engine, you will see a black plastic/rubber plug. If you pull that out then you can shove something in there like a big screwdriver, socket extension, prybar etc to hold the crank still. I have a picture of it at home if needed. Be careful not to damage the TPS or anything that may be nearby. Chain wrench holds the crank pulley fairly well. Harbor Freight is the only place I could find locally that had a chain wrench with a chain big enough to fit around the crank pulley. Wrapped the pulley with some old accessory drive belt to protect it from the biting of the chain. I found the prybar method above to be easier to do though: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 After reading articles by Endwrench and Motor mag all about changing Tbelts. I realized what I did wrong! On the Crankshaft pully sprocket there is an arrow and a notch. I used the arrow. [...] Okay, one more time now, for anyone (other than kellen ) reading this thread with the intention of replacing a timing belt: The arrow is not the indicator to use when installing a timing belt. (The arrow is there to help position things for checking/adjusting valve clearances.) The notch/line on the sprocket is what's used for t-belt installation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellen Posted September 24, 2007 Author Share Posted September 24, 2007 I feel kinda silly. But relieved and excited to get this up and running. I sat there trying to start the darn car over and over and over... I've definatly learned a lot. I really apreciate all your advice! K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 I feel kinda silly.There's no need to feel that way; we've all made mistakes at one time or another, and you certainly aren't the first (and likely won't be the last ) with respect to timing the engine. But relieved and excited to get this up and running.[...]I've definatly learned a lot.That's the right attitude! I often learn more when things have a "catch" than when they go smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 I often learn more when things have a "catch" than when they go smoothly. Amen. I think that could be said for most of us here. And so ends another Subaru repair saga that ends well with another happy Soob driver back on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellen Posted September 25, 2007 Author Share Posted September 25, 2007 I found why my timing belt broke... the geared Idler Pulley broke, stopped the engine dead. I wonder if it caused any internal damage? Those bearings look great eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Good picture there Kellen. Another one bites the dust. I doubt there is any internal damage due to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 What did the 200.00 include? Memphis, TN has a very low population of subarus, especially mid 90's... older than that are non-existent. There is on subaru dealer here in a town of 1 million. Plus I needed the parts yesterday. :0 Thanks for the tip, i'll be utilizing them next time. All the parts were in stock, and they are local to me so I had the parts in 1/2 hour. Atsugi (Paraut) OEM water pump: $52.00 Upper and lower smooth idlers (GMB): $46.00 ($23.00 each) Cogged idler (GMB): $24.00 Tensioner roller (GMB): $34.00 Timing belt (OEM Japan): $29.00 A/C accesory belt: $7.50 PS, and Alternator belt: $10.00 Antifreeze: $8.97 Total: $211.47 I didn't replace the hydrualic tensioner as they generally don't wear out on the EJ22's, and mine was at 132k. If I had wanted it, it would have been another $97. I didn't do the cam and crank seals either as they didn't show evidence of leakage - they are cheap and I normally do them but each engine is individual and this one seemed so well maintained that I didn't bother. I am counting the accesory belts and the antifreeze in that total though - which aren't technically part of the "timing belt" job. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Yes good pic of the failed bearing. Typically the toothed/geared one seems to be the most common to fail. No damage would have been done to the engine since that one is non interference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OB99W Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 I found why my timing belt broke... the geared Idler Pulley broke, stopped the engine dead. I wonder if it caused any internal damage? Those bearings look great eh? Thanks for the picture -- it really illustrates why we often suggest changing more than just the timing belt itself. I tend to agree with Cougar, it's not likely that anything else suffered from the idler failure. Did you happen to find any metal bits and pieces when you pulled the covers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellen Posted September 25, 2007 Author Share Posted September 25, 2007 Thanks for the picture -- it really illustrates why we often suggest changing more than just the timing belt itself. I tend to agree with Cougar, it's not likely that anything else suffered from the idler failure. Did you happen to find any metal bits and pieces when you pulled the covers? I looked briefly for metal stuff, will look again when I do a final cleaning of inner case. I did remove about 15 teeth of the old timing belt... Should I use brake cleaner to clean inside? Theres a bunch of oily residue buildup in the timing belt case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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