captainkf Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 So, my 92 loyale had a new water pump put in a few weeks back, and now I have coolant frothing out of it on extended drives. The shop thinks it's either a head gasket or a cracked block. The exhaust is escaping into the block and mixing with the coolant creating a frothy mess in the resevoir. Does this sound right? Is this the end of my car? I called around to local wreckers and if they had a good engine to sell (which they don't) it would be $700 - $1000 . How difficult is it to access to remove the head to see the internals, as they say you can see if the block is cracked. if it is a head gasket, that doesn't sound too dificult to replace. However as all things mechanical are relative, we'll see. What happens if I keep driving it, and just check the coolant often? For a bit at least. I am trying to decide what to do with it. It needs a paint job, a cv joint, and now this. It's a 92 4wd wagon with 240,000 km's. It seems like it has life left, but I don't want to keep pumping $ into a pit either. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 HG's are easy, and your block isn't cracked. EA82 blocks don't crack (especially not the N/A ones). You can do the job yourself with basic hand tools - no need to pull the engine. Both heads are accesible in the bay. Ratcheting box wrenches make the job easier but aren't required. You will need at least a cheap torque wrench to do the head bolts. And this would be a good time to do the entire timing belt/tensioners/water pump/front seals as well if they aren't new. But all things considered, if you can't do the work yourself find a low mileage gen 1 legacy. Sounds like this one just needs to be retired as it will never be worth what you will spend for paint and all the repairs. When HG's blow - they usually result in coolant being burnt, and overheating. Exhaust gasses in the coolant are possible as well. The shop doesn't sound knowledgable enough about the EA82 to me. They should know these blocks don't crack. Subaru are different animals, and take special knowledge that many "import" shops just don't have. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted October 1, 2007 Author Share Posted October 1, 2007 Well, it could be my brain failure also. It's a subura dealership, so they should be familiar with them. They may have said the head or head gasket was pooched. Does this sound right? Can I still drive it as I have to work tommorow and it's and hour each way? -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellow65 Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 Well, it could be my brain failure also. It's a subura dealership, so they should be familiar with them. They may have said the head or head gasket was pooched. Does this sound right? Can I still drive it as I have to work tommorow and it's and hour each way? -Richard the sad thing is that is about up to par, talking to the dealership about old stuff is like walking in there and speaking French. you get this look of, you mean there were engines before the EJ series. listen to GD that guy knows his stuff. also i have milked head gaskets for a while before just making sure the rad was topped off before going anywhere. now that's just me and my broke rump roast with no free time on his hands. did it hurt anything, maybe, maybe not. but my thoughts were as long as there wasn't antifreeze in the oil you should be ok. lots of people on here drive subarus that do the magical disappearing water trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 the sad thing is that is about up to par, talking to the dealership about old stuff is like walking in there and speaking French. you get this look of, you mean there were engines before the EJ series. listen to GD that guy knows his stuff. also i have milked head gaskets for a while before just making sure the rad was topped off before going anywhere. now that's just me and my broke rump roast with no free time on his hands. did it hurt anything, maybe, maybe not. but my thoughts were as long as there wasn't antifreeze in the oil you should be ok. lots of people on here drive subarus that do the magical disappearing water trick. six months, and about 10K miles, with bubbly into the radiator overflow from a blown headgasket here. I had ZERO trace of antifreeze or water in the oil, so I played it cavalier and put it off until it cost me a job.. :-\ I have about 4-5K on the engine since the headgasket job and its running fine. DON'T be intimidated by the fact that you are basically tearing your engine apart.. if you can say, change a water pump and timing belts, you are capable of doing this head gasket job. I would even be willing to bet that with the right tools and some pointers, a COMPLETE novice could do the job easily enough. I have never done MAJOR major engine work before this (nothing beyond the water pump/timing belt mentioned above) and it took me one easy, six hour day to dis assemble, then about the same to re assemble, and she cranked up on the first shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted October 3, 2007 Author Share Posted October 3, 2007 Thanks for all the advice. I talked with an old friend who owns a garage in a nearby town and he is cutting me a very sweet deal, so I am taking it to him. I am very happy as I was concerned this might be the end of the car. I spent the evening putting on "new" fenders and front spoiler. It's going to the garage on Friday. It will be under $800 for both head gaskets, milling the heads and labour. I think that's very reasonable as shop time is 6.5 hrs. Thanks for all the input, you all have been very helpful. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 It will be under $800 for both head gaskets, milling the heads and labour. I think that's very reasonable as shop time is 6.5 hrs. HG's: $40 for both (Fel-Pro permatorque's) from Autozone. Intake/Exhaust Man. gaskets: $15 from the dealer. Cam Case o-rings: $6 from the dealer. Milling: $70 ($35 per head - 24 hour turn around, sometimes less) 6.5 hours: 487.50 (at $75/Hr shop time, which is high) That's a bit over $600.... where's the rest going? You already have a new water pump and I'm assuming the rest of the timing setup is kosher or it would have been done by the last shop.... Sounds like a poor deal to me, but a few hours of my weekend isn't worth $75 an hour so perhaps I'm biased. Even dealerships don't charge much over $80/Hr, and he quoted you about $100/Hr unless there's other parts involved (I've done this job [many times], and there shouldn't be). GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 When I had my heads milled it cost me around $112.50 for the pair. I didn't shop around at all to get the best deal, just took them to guys I've dealt with before and know what they're doing. Just my observations, not trying to dispute anything. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 i agree that is a bit high, is that american dollars or candian? don't know if that matters or what the conversoin rates are. sounds like he's just charging you a few hundred less than the dealer rather than giving you a good deal. but if you konw the guy hopefully he'll treat you right and not rush to get it done and get to his next job. he may be including a valve job in the mix too, i always get a valve job done when i pull a head with any mileage on it. and he could be replacing additional parts. make sure he uses Fel-Pro permatorque gaskets, they do not require a retorque and are highly recommended by subaru experienced community (us, many of which have replaced dozens of headgaskets). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy FitzGibbon Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 The exchange rate these days is pretty much negligible, as far as I know. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted October 4, 2007 Author Share Posted October 4, 2007 Well, I was there when he called the parts store and they quoted him $365 for gaskets, he'll charge $250. Book price is 6.5 hrs, his shop rate is $72 hr, but he'd do it for less than $400 no tax. Milling is $65 a head, not including any additonal work like welding up a cracked head. So were're at 250 400 120 = 720 plus any other bits and peices. I thought this sounded reasonable, however I will inquire about a different supplier for parts. Although this is from lordco (a big chain parts store in BC). I also trust his work and his work ethic which is a good thing, as I generally distrust most mechanics. I had considered doing it myself, but I admit to being a bit overwhelmed by the project. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 see if he will let you buy the parts yourself and bring them to him, that is an EXHORBITANT PRICE FOR HEADGASKETS, PERIOD. head gaskets (buy 2) Intake manifold gaskets (buy 2 of the Nippon Reinz brand, it is OEM)) Cam Case O rings (buy 2 Ishino Cam Housing O-rings, these are OEM brand) If you buy all parts from thepartsbin, your total is 70.66 with free ground shipping. The head gaskets are cheaper at autozone, and the link above is to the Fel Pro Perma-Torque gaskets at Autozone.. A-zone charges 16 apiece, thepartsbin 28 and change. The total from thepartsbin without the headgaskets is 19.46 which includes a 5.50 ground shipping charge. It LOOKS like shipping from autozone is free, but don't quote me on that. If they need any other parts then just buy a cheapo headgasket set somewhere and throw the head gaskets, intake gaskets, and (if included, doubtful) cam case o rings in the garbage. The OEM o-rings are metal reinforced, and non reinfoced O rings have an annoying tendency to get sucked into the passage and cause decreased oil flow to the HLA's which results in annoying and chronic (but essentially harmless) Tick of Death. These guys are HOSING you on parts, whether they are simply passing their prices on to you or not. The Fel-Pro perma torque gaskets, and OEM branded head gaskets, are the ONLY way to go for reliability; the FelPro's do not require being re torqued in 500 miles, so they are the most relied upon option. Also, these cylinder head ALMOST ALWAYS develop small cracks in between the intake and exhaust valves; the rule of thumb is that cracks the thickness of a thumbnail are OK, anything greater, and replacing the head is simpler (junkyard.) Subaru released a number of Technical Service Bulletins regarding the Between The Valve (BTV) cracks being unharmful to the function and performance of the engine. However, they DO sometimes develop cracks in the exhaust port (ie, look into the port, clean the carbon out, and check the ridge that bisects the "siamesed" port.) Exhaust port cracks are eventually fatal, and welding on cracks in EITHER location is a lost cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 Yeah - that's INSANE. Headgaskets (Fel-Pro is the best) should run no more than $100 for the complete head SET (valve covers, manifold gaskets, etc). You could get the entire engine gasket set (every gasket in the WHOLE engine) for like $220 from any Fel-Pro dealer - but you don't need those. His head shop is way out of line too. My cylinder head shop (that's all they do is cylinder heads) charges $35 flat rate for all aluminium head resurfacing. They are extremely good at what they do, and are used by all the shops in my area. Up front there's something you should know so you don't get totally hosed. The cracks you WILL find between the valves in the heads are NORMAL. They do not affect the engine, and can't be fixed by welding them - they will crack again in short order. There is an official TSB from Subaru stating these are not to be fixed unless the crack extends into the water jacket - which never happens on N/A engines. It does happen occasionally in the Turbo engines but those heads are physically different and the engines are under a lot more stress. DO NOT HAVE THE HEADS WELDED - no matter what your mechanic or anyone else says. Source used heads if there is evidence of exhaust port cracks. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mellow65 Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 His head shop is way out of line too. My cylinder head shop (that's all they do is cylinder heads) charges $35 flat rate for all aluminium head resurfacing. They are extremely good at what they do, and are used by all the shops in my area. GD what shop are you going to for your heads? I need to get some heads redone here soon and that is probably going to be the cheapest i will find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 what shop are you going to for your heads? I need to get some heads redone here soon and that is probably going to be the cheapest i will find. mine were done for free, but $70 total was the price I had been quoted by the guy. Fortunately, his stepson is a good friend of mine (his stepson actually did the milling after hours) and my uncle has had thousands of dollars in engine work at his shop on the Roadsters, so my milling was pro bono.. but 120, 140 for the pair is not AWFULLY uncommon.. just high. BUT, none of us discussing this are in the canadian market, so who knows. Any more would be absurd gouging IMO. Since GD basically re-affirmed everything I said EXCEPT the exhaust port cracks, I wanted to repeat that. I am sure GD agrees with what I said about them; chances are that they aren't as common on the non turbo engines so he didn't even mention it. If you had a compressor and tools, I would fly up there and do your headgaskets for $800, and I would buy my own tickets. I could use the extra money, and it would be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted October 4, 2007 Share Posted October 4, 2007 hope you have noticed all the recommendations for the Fel-Pro permatorques, do not miss that. they do not require retorque like other gaskets...which is a ton of extra work and they are great gaskets. do not buy that gasket set, with our help you'll end up with what you need, better parts, at far better prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted October 8, 2007 Author Share Posted October 8, 2007 Thanks all. I will look into getting some shipped. I am also printing this off and taking it to my mechanic so we can chat as I don't want to get hosed. Thanks. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainkf Posted October 11, 2007 Author Share Posted October 11, 2007 So I went across the border and picked up the head gasket kit (felpro), an axle and a plug wire set (for my bus) for less than the gasket set up here. Stupid parts store, I was getting hosed. Thanks for the advice all! It just saved me a couple hundred dollars, and our dollar is worth more, so I saved even more money. -Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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