96 2.5l OBW head gasket project

[sublute]

No, I don't have a noid, but I'm starting to feel like one because the car won't start....

[sublute]

OK, so I have to figure out if fuel is getting to the injectors and into the cylinders???

 

I'll check the injector wiring...

Sorry, my 3 year old daughter wanted me to put this in, but like the general trend of the day, it is not dancing right now....

[Skip]

OK, so I have to figure out if fuel is getting to the injectors and into the cylinders???

 

Sir, Affirmative, sir.

[sublute]

OK, I pulled the spark plug for cylinder#1 and there was fuel on it... Does this point toward timing???

 

I was cleaning around the throttle bore and the throttle plate with gum-out when the intake manifold was off. Could this have damaged or clogged any component? TPS or Idle air control selenoid?

 

What next?

[Skip]

could be

or

could be gas fouled

 

try it again and if no go

stand on it (floor it to clear the flooring)

 

You could pull all of them

crank a bit to clear the cylinders

clean the plugs, reinstall and give it ago.

[sublute]

Ok, I got really paranoid that I got the timing belt on wrong and took off the camshaft covers and rotated the engine several times until the marks on the belt aligned. It seems like all is right... I've been going over it in my head and reviewing the photo's I took before I took the belt off. The reluctor was aligned to the mark on the sensor and the camshafts geared pulleys were aligned properly and I didn't move it during the rest of the work.

 

Do you think I fouled it with gas when I was turning the engine over to get oil pressure up and curculate it? I did take a while for the oil pressure light to go off ???1 min of cranking???? I did try to really floor it for a while when cranking.

 

Maybe I'll do as you suggest and take the plugs out and dry it out and retry starting.... Pulling the plugs are such a PITA on this car....

 

Thanks again for everybody's help during this whole process.

[sublute]

Yes, the plugs were really wet!!! I pulled 3 of 4 and cranked the engine with the fuel line plugged to clear the cylinders??? I blew out the plugs with compressed air and just came to the computer to get the torque spec for the plugs... I hope this works... I'll let you know.

[mnwolftrack]

I never disconnected the fuel pump when I did mine. I just disconnected the 3 fuel lines on the driver side of the engine going to the fender area. I also didn't crank the engine over to get oil circulating first. I used plenty of assembly lube which takes the place of oil until it gets circulated there. My engine fired up in about 3 seconds on the first try. I don't understand your question regarding how long the engine would run if the fuel pump were disconnected. I'm also confused by what you mean by "When I disconnected the fuel pump at the beginning of this process, the car would immediatly not start. I'm wondering if the fuel pump is/was marginal." I'm not understanding why you disconnected the fuel pump to begin with, why you tried to start the car with it disconnected, and if you are saying you expected the car to run with the fuel pump disconnected. But, it sounds like you are getting fuel.

 

If you cranked for a whole minute with plugs in, gas squirting in, but the coil was disconnected, I can easily see the plugs being fouled. Drying them out may not be enough. Do you have an old set of plugs or a cheap set of coppers lying around. You wouldn't want to rush out and spend $12 a plug for OEM's if it isn't the problem.

 

If you hook one of your soggy spark plug wires up to a wire, lay it on top the engine, do you see a good spark?

 

An engine needs 3 things to run: spark, fuel, and air. It sounds like you are getting fuel, now check for spark and air. Make sure you remembered to plug in the AFM at the air filter housing. I doubt this is a timing belt alignment issue. Having done it myself, it's not as hard as it sounded and it should be fairly straight forward. If I recall correctly, even people who've installed belts that are a tooth off somewhere will still at least turn over and run (poorly). The only confusing part of the timing belt is the crank gear. It apparently has 2 marks on it, and some people get confused between the two.

[sublute]

Hello, I was following the Haynes instructions to let the pressure off the fuel lines. They say to run the car until it stops with the fuel pump electrical connector pulled. I have never done this in the past on my Loyale, but decided to do it this time... I now realize this is just a step that can be skipped... I am getting plenty of pressure from the fuel pump.

 

I did use assembly lube on the camshafts, so I probably could have skipped the turning it over to bring the oil pressure up. It must have really dumped a bunch of fuel into the cyl's

 

Earlier today I took #1 spark plug out and connected it to the #1 wire and laid it on top of the intake manifold. I got a spark, but it seemed orangish and not a really great one. It was hard to see through the windshield and it was a little sunny today.. It's supposed to be blue, right? Is this because of the fouling? These are new NGK platinum plugs.

 

I just took out 3 of the four plugs, used compressed air on them, unhooked the gas in line, cranked the engine a bit, put the plugs back in and cranked a bit to clear gas. I then hooked the low voltage lead to the coil back up and got a little sputter hear and there. After a while I thought I should hook the fuel line back up again and try. No go and the battery is drained.

 

It's on a charger right now... I do have the spark plugs that I took out before putting in the new NGK OEM platinum ones. They are the exactly the same. Maybe I should try the old ones??? Could I have ruined the new plugs with gas? or will they dry out after a while and be usable again? I don't know anything about gas fouled plugs. I'll see what I can find...

[mnwolftrack]

I don't know what condition your old plugs are in, but at a bare minimum I would hook one of them up laying on top the manifold and watch the spark. The spark should be bright blue. Wet fouled plugs will cause a weak spark because the fuel will allow a different path for the spark to take. You can even lay two plugs up top--one soaked one and one dry one and compare the two side by side. But if you stay the car now tries to fire and stumbles a bit, that's a good sign.

[sublute]

I will pull the 3 easily removed plugs and try to dry the cyl's out and put in 3 old plugs. Also, I'll do the spark comparison before I put the old ones in. Maybe I didn't dry the old plugs or cyl's out enough? Anyway, that will be tomorrow.

 

Thanks for the suggestions

[sublute]

OK, this is driving me nuts...

 

I took all the plugs out this morning and blew them out with compressed air and dryed them out with a heat lamp (500 watts). I then hooked one up to a spark plug wire and observed the spark. Looked OK. I also hooked up an old one and that looked OK.

 

While the plugs were out I connected a rubber tube on the end of compressed air and blew each cylinder out to clear any fuel. I put the new plugs back in and put the wires back on. I got a very slight studder when I cranked it then it went back to an occasional near miss on maybe one cylinder.

 

What could be happening?

 

I have changed engines, replaced timing belts, etc... on my Loyale and never had such trouble! It is really making me feel like and idiot!

 

The battery is recharging again...and I need a fresh look at what the problem could be.

[idosubaru]

i'm assuming you got the timing belt lined up perfectly?

no check engine light?

you didn't accidentally cross up the spark plug wires did you? a little harder to do on subaru's (particularly EJ's) but not impossible, this is a very common goof up.

 

sounds like you have fuel, though you could test that too with a noid light if need be. you need fuel, compression and spark to run. assuming you do indeed have fuel i would want to verify compression and spark at each cylinder. since you checked the plugs already and they are fine, i would pull each wire, attach your old plug to it and make sure they all 4 get good spark. once you verify good spark at all 4 i would check compression.

[Skip]

some one recently forgot to plug in the cam or crank senor

 

I don't think you would have any spark but might want to look

the those connections.

[sublute]

As far as I can tell, I got the T-belt right. I made a slight mistake when I took the belt off when I lined all the arrows upright on all the camshaft pulleys and the front arrow on the geared crankshaft pulley was upright. All I had to do was rotate the crankshaft 6 teeth to clockwise to align the reluctor mark with the sensor case mark. The camshafts were off of the proper position by 6 teeth counterclockwise. So in otherwords I aligned all the arrows straight up but relatively the proper position for all the cogs was ~6 teeth clockwise. The double hash marks on the cam pulleys would have aligned, the single slashes to the cover index marks and the crankshaft reluctor to the case mark would have all lined up when I rotated the crankshaft 6 teeth clockwise. There is only one position of the crankshaft that this happens, right?

 

I took the the covers off the other night when I was freaked out thinking I had done it wrong. I rotated the crank until the hash marks lined up and all the single marks lined up with the cover marks and I couldn't see the slashed line on the belt on the crank, but when I align the arrows upright, the crank pulley for the AC, steering pump,etc.. is indexed at the 0 on the center plastic timing belt cover. The same position as when I took the TB off. So, all looks good there.

 

The coil position is as I remember you can read the label and the connector exited left rear to meet the proper hook up connector. No crossed wires. Seems very hard to get wrong...

 

By the wet plugs, I assume there is fuel... could there be too much?

 

I checked both the crank and cam sensor connections... And each injector connector. and anyu connector that I could find...

 

I have already verified 1-3 getting spark I can do the other 2, then do a compression check...

[mnwolftrack]

somewhere on here, someone took a picture of the crank gear and where it's supposed to be. I didn't take a picture of mine, otherwise I'd share it. I didn't rotate the crank at all once I pulled the old timing belt off during disassembly. I pulled the engine out with the timing belt and covers still in place, so when I rotated the engine to get the converter bolts off, I wasn't concerned about the crank position. When I got the engine out, I rotated the crank until the cam gears were aligned properly. The old belt had it's own white lines on it from the manufacturer, but I rotated a few times and never got them to align (and at the time, i wasn't even sure where they were supposed to align to). Then, I marked the old belt, it's direction, a reference point to each pulley and gear, and so on and so forth and made it fool proof. Then, I taped the old belt to the new one, transferred all my markings, and put the new belt on. The new belt had the same white lines from the manufacturer, and I realized where those went during installation of the new belt, and they lined up with the slashes on the cam gears etc.... I rotated the engine a few times in each direction to see if the marks would re-align, but I quite frankly didn't turn the engine over enough to ever get the lines to line up again. My arms got sore! There's a lot of things to spin, and it appears to take more than just a few spins to get things realigned. The Hayne's manual didn't mention anything about having to rotate the engine a few times either, so I gave up. I've done other vehicles before, and those engines and manuals did mention rotating the engine to verify marks still lined up, but those engines were much simpler and didn't have 4 cams and a fairly long timing belt to deal with.

 

I'm not sure what else to tell you to check at this point, other than to check for spark on all cylinders, then check compression if you have a guage. That would tell you if the belt was off because things wouldn't be opening and closing when they should be. Also, do a search here for pictures of the crank gear. Perhaps try "crank" "crank position" or something similar in your search. I'd provide a link but I don't know which post it was.

 

Did you plug in the 3 big engine harness connectors on the top passenger side front of the transmission?

 

Regarding pulling plugs, are you doing it from above or below? If you aren't doing it from below, I highly suggest it. You don't have to remove anything and you have more working room, albeit upside down. All I need is a piece of cardboard to lay on, and I can crawl under there and gain access without moving anything. The inner fender is still partially in the way, but you do not have to remove the air filter box or anthing else. I'm not sure why people try to do it from above. Even with things removed, it's still a long reach down from above.

 

I'm confused by your previous post. You said you first aligned all the cam gears and the slashes all lined up, but you said the crank gear was off 6 teeth? Did the belt jump? And am I understanding you correctly that you rotated the crank 6 degrees, the cam gears were then off 6 teeth, so you rotated them all 6 teeth back? Are you sure the crank was really off 6 teeth? If you first lined up the cam gears, all the slashes met up, and the old belt didn't jump, then the crank should have been in the right place.

[mnwolftrack]

I did a quick search and couldn't find the exact picture I was thinking of, but I did find this which is a few articles on timing belts for SOHC and DOHC 2.2 and 2.5's:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=69365

 

Note this one in particular:

 

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Pdf/082001_08.pdf

 

This shows a picture of the crank sprocket. The arrow on the front lip of the crank gear is the piston position. The actual crank position mark is on the back on the reluctor. These appear to be about 6 teeth apart in the pictures. Did you use the correct mark???

 

I haven't found the exact picture I was thinking of that I ran across a while back. It's a photo an actual member of this forum took of their crank gear. I think it even had photoshop drawings and text on it regarding what mark is what, and where it's supposed to be.

[sublute]

Yes, I found out it takes a few complete turns to get the TB to align at all the marks again...I was freaking out that I had really not gotten it on properly, then it lined up perfectly. I took my vest off somewhere in the middle.

 

Check on the three electrical harness connectors...

 

I did figure out that pulling the plugs from below was the ticket... # 4 is still a PITA...

 

I'm going to check for spark at each plug, then do a compression test tonight.

 

On the T-belt alignment, when you align all the cam pulleys with the arrows up^ the front mark ^ on the crankshaft points at 12 o'clock and if you put the front t-belt cover on and the pulley for the AC, etc... on, the highlighted notch will also align on the 0. If you then properly align the hash mark on the reluctor (clockwise~6-7? teeth) the double hash marks on the camshaft pulleys come together and the single hash marks on the camshaft pulleys align to the marks on the plastic back covers. This is the position for T-belt replacement and all that. See my photo's of their position when I took the belt off. Does that make sense?

 

I just read your next post and the

http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Pdf/082001_08.pdf

 

illustrates what I'm talking about perfectly. When the timing belt/pulleys are in their proper position the arrows on the cam and crank pulleys all are clockwise by ~6-7 teeth. Photo's 1,2, and 3 in this PDF show this.

 

I took the belt off when all the arrows were at 12 o'clock then realized the reluctor mark was the right one and rotated the crank to that position ~ 6-7 teeth clockwise.

 

Thanks, the more I go over it, the more I'm sure I did it right. Compression test should tell???

[sublute]

OK, I'm doing a major re-think. It seems like the only thing could be out of timing. Have I toasted the engine(bent the valves)? The pistons look like this which suggests that it could be non-interfereing???? have I dodged a bullet? Or is it interference between the valves which causes the damage? In which case the valves were all moving relatively to each other in proper order because the cams were aligned to each other just not timed correctly with the piston position??

 

I guess the compression test will give me the answer...

 

I remember rotating the crank at some point and maybe I got it off????

 

If I take the t-belt off and try again, how do I find TDC for cyl 1 which is the proper place to start to reposition everything...

[sublute]

OK, I got my answer from and old post regarding interference engines.

 

snip----

05-01-2006, 12:27 PM

Wayne Boncyk vbmenu_register("postmenu_456825", true);

Eat, Live, Breath Subaru

Join Date: Aug 2004

City: Denver

State: Colorado

Age: 52

Posts: 347 iTrader: (1)

Photos

 

 

Re: Interference or non?

You are indeed correct. The 1996 2.5L DOHC engines are "interference," in the sense that both intake and exhause valves cannot be open simultaneously. They hit each other in that mode, with nasty consequences. Still, if my memory hasn't completely failed me, there is enough clearance in that DOHC design so the valves don't actually contact a TDC piston when they're open. Bottom line - there are different flavors of "interference."

 

end snip....

next post in the thread snip...

 

ANY and ALL DOHC Subarus are valve-valve interference. Yes this is properly called 'interference' because as has been explained in previous posts, serious damage can result that requires the engine to be torn down.

 

end snip

So, as long as the camshafts move in proper alignment with each other, the valves would not have contacted each other and they wouldn't have been whacked by the piston at TDC....

 

Now, I will go and do the compression test to see if I got the wrong position.

 

If it is wrong, how do I find the proper position which I assume is for cyl # 1 to be at or after TDC??? Would it be 360 deg from the current wrong position?

 

Actually, I should get compression on cyl 1 but the plug would be firing on the exhaust stroke, right? I can't visualize what is happening to the other cylinders... Maybe they would be off with compression. I have to find that neat moving gif of the 4 cylinder movement of a subaru engine...

[mnwolftrack]

Yes, the 2.5L is an interference engine, however, many people incorrectly install the timing belt and no one has reported damage from the crank shaft confusion. The main concern with interference, if I understand things correctly, is the cams. If the cams are out of sync with each other, then the valves will hit each other. If your double slashes are lining up, then you have no worries about the cams being out of sync. I do believe valves can hit the pistons, but when you're only off 6 teeth, I don't think that's anywhere near enough. You'd have to be off a lot more, basically 180 degrees, at the crank.

 

Again, I don't understand why you rotated anything 6 teeth. You mentioned lining things up with the arrow on the front of the crank gear, but that's the TDC mark, not the timing belt mark. When the reluctor mark (the flat ring behind crank gear with the tabs on it) is pointing at 12 noon on the oil pump, this is precisely where the crank is supposed to be when the cams are to be rotated into position so that the double slashes on the cam gears line up with each other, which is also when the single slashes will line up with the single slots on the back of the timing cover. There's no rotating anything.

 

The passenger head's camshafts will be loose (meaning turnable by hand) in order to get their double slashes to line up properly. I put the timing belt on here first. Then, I used 3 cheap plastic clamps. I used one clamp to hold the belt in position on the top cam gear, another clamp on the bottom gear, and the third clamp to hold the two gears together. I ended up taking the third clamp off because it wasn't needed and it covered up the double slashes. Then, I started winding the belt through everything except the driver side cam gears. Note that I have not installed my tensioner yet, and I had removed the lower idler pulley on the passenger side, so there's plenty of slack in the belt to manuvuer it around. Next, I had to deal with the driver cams. They would not rotate into position by hand. They got fairly close but had to rotate the remaining APPROXIMATE 30 degrees via wrench on the cam gear bolt head. One of the cams must be rotated counter clockwise, one gets rotated clockwise. I forget which is which, but they get rotated in the direction that is the shortest possible distance to get the double slashes to line up. After quickly playing with the cams, it's easy to tell which is which. If you have a Hayne's manual, it tells you which is which. Anyway, then I slid the belt over one cam gear (while holding the gear in place with a wrench in the other hand), put a clamp on, then put a wrench on the other driver cam gear, rotated it into place, and put the belt and clamp on. Then, I put the lower passenger idler pulley on, and then I installed the tensioner.

 

There's no reason to try to find TDC for cylinder one. You just rotate the crank so the timing marking is pointing at 12 o'clock. That's it. When the crank mark (not the TDC mark) is aligned properly, the pistons are not fully up, and you don't stand the chance of hitting the valves against the pistons. This is probably by design so people don't risk hitting the valves against the pistons if they rotate the cams a full revolution. The crank is a one-to-one ratio, so one turn of the crank and crank gear means the piston comes back to the exact same spot it was the last time, no matter which direction you turned it. It's normally the cams that turn at a different rate, such as 1 full turn of the crank equals 2 full turns of the cams. I don't know what the exact ratio is for the 2.5L, but it really doesn't matter for our discussion purposes. With the correcxt crank mark at the correct position, you line the cam marks up and put the belt on as is. There's no rotating or compensating for 6 teeth. So, I'm either still confused about what you were trying to say, or you may have aligned the wrong mark (again, very very common oops, and no one has reported damage from it).

 

If I understand you correctly, you have aligned the crank gear (arrow mark on front of gear) to TDC and aligned the cam pulleys and installed the belt. When you put the timing cover on, the timing numbers on the cover tell you the piston is still at TDC. Is this what you are saying? If yes, then the crank is off 6 teeth. The crank should not be at TDC to put the belt on.

 

If you are off 6 teeth at the crank, the compression test ought to tell you. It by no means means you have damaged anything, it can certainly mean things aren't aligned right. If your crank is off, then the valves aren't opening/closing when the piston is in the proper position of travel, therefore compression readings will be off.

[mnwolftrack]

If you are concerned about the timing marks on the belt itself, I found a little more information. If you are spinning the engine over after finishing the belt installation and hoping the belt marks will line up again where you installed them, at the same moment the crank and cam marks all line up again, that it actually takes A LONG TIME for this to happen. One of the posts I read on here was like 422 revolutions before things line up again like they did when the belt was installed. I know I rotated 3 times in each direction and the belt marks never got close to lining up again. In fact, after only 3 revolutions of the crank, I don't think the belt even made 1 full trip around. What it comes down to is the marks on the belt are only helpful for the installation of the belt and that's all.

 

I don't know if it's literally 422 revolutions, though someone did comment in a post that there are 211 teeth on the belt, and the # of revolutions is somehow double that.

 

I don't even know if you're concerned about the belt marks, but I figured I'd bring it up just in case.

 

Oh, and BTW, considering this thread is now 10 pages long, you might want to consider starting a new thread. A new reader is going to have to read through 10 pages of stuff to finally get to the point you are at now before they can help. I've been following your post since the beginning, so I'm not playing catchup. I've also just done this a matter of a couple months ago, so it's still very fresh in my mind. Your current situation is pretty specific and beyond the point of a general '96 2.5L OBW head gasket project., so in that regard, you may want to post a new thread with a new title.

[sublute]

Actually, I had the marks correct when I put the t-belt on reluctor mark at 12 o'clock and hash marks matching on the cam pulleys, then putting the t-belt on matching the correct marks.

 

In short I think it is timed to spark on the exhaust stroke and the crank is off by 360 degrees. I think I must have rotated the crankshaft once for some reason and didn't rotate it again... I wasn't thinking straight or basically being stupid.

 

Thanks for bearing with me and helping me to think out loud and find what I think is the problem and solution.

[mnwolftrack]

If you pull the belt off the crank, rotate the crank 360 degrees, and put the belt back on, nothing will have changed. The crank spins twice as fast as the cams (if I have my ratios right). When you install the belt with everything aligned up where it should be, then that's all there is to it. In order to get the cams out of sync with the crank like you are saying, I think you'd have to rotate the crank once, in which case the cam slashes are no longer pointing at the right place. If you rotate the crank one more time, the cam slashes will come back into position. If you take the belt completely off and rotate the crank 360 degrees three times, five times, or any number of times, it's still in the same spot. If you rotate the cams fully once, five times, or any number of times, they are still in the same place along with their respective valves. The syncing that comes into play has to do with the ratio the cams turn with respect to the crank, and when the engine computer tells the plugs to fire.

 

Other random thoughts. I initially hooked up 2 of the 3 fuel lines incorrectly. Luckily, I caught it right away. There are sensors here and there including the cam position sensor on the top front driver head, a sensor or two on the top front of the block, sensors around the throttle body, some small coolant hoses (coolant hoses won't prevent the car from starting), oxygen sensor(s) underneath, the intake AFM/MAF sensor on the intake tubing by the air filter box (my brain is fried and I forget if this car has an AFM, MAF, or MAP sensor there....). Forgetting to plug in at least some of these sensors will keep the car from starting.

[sublute]

Ok, If I got the crankshaft 360 degrees off and the cams are in the proper position, cylinder will be in exhaust when it is supposed to be firing. Right?

 

So the crank and cam shaft sensors tell the computer TDC fire? They don't fire on the exhaust stroke, do they? They must be timed as each sensor has 5 trigger points on each 360 degrees. If the crank shaft to camshaft is 2:1 then the computer is referenced to TDC when the 5th sensors on the crank and camshaft come together every 2 turns of the crank.

 

That explains the 5th trigger point that is off the 4 points of the compass... I was wondering about that point...

 

Thinking that rotating it 360 degrees (this was without the belt on of course) was OK and I was back to proper index.... Wrong...4 stroke engine...I should have known better. I deserve a dope slap...

 

I got the fuel lines right... double checked with a photo I did on start...