foxgap Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 The loyale is starting to have lifter noise on cold startup. The engine has 110,000 miles on it. I changed the oil and filter thinking that maybe that would help but it still clatters away until the oil warms up. Car has 50 lbs of pressure at startup and as the oil warms it drops to about 20 lbs at idle. At this point the noise goes away. Can someone suggest an additive or am I going to have to dig into the motor and replace the lifters? Is the clattering causing harm to the engine at the moment? Other than the noise it runs like a champ, a slow champ but I can't have everything. Thanks in advance, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxgap Posted November 8, 2007 Author Share Posted November 8, 2007 Ok after posting I get the similar threads box and the suggestion was ATF or Seafoam. I can pick up the seafoam this morning and will give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeshorts Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 My 91 Loyale does the same thing!! And has been doing the same thing for 20,000 miles... Just a little tick in the morning when I first start it up. I tried all the additives and it really didn't change anything, now I know other folks have had more success with it. I really have no issues with the early morning tick (of course the car does have 275,000 miles on it). Just my take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joostvdw Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 If it really bothers you and additives won't clear it, you can always get your hands dirty and replace them for like $6 each and reseal the oilpump, that ought to solve your ticking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueTrain Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 The loyale is starting to have lifter noise on cold startup. The engine has 110,000 miles on it. I changed the oil and filter thinking that maybe that would help but it still clatters away until the oil warms up. Car has 50 lbs of pressure at startup and as the oil warms it drops to about 20 lbs at idle. At this point the noise goes away. Can someone suggest an additive or am I going to have to dig into the motor and replace the lifters? Is the clattering causing harm to the engine at the moment? Other than the noise it runs like a champ, a slow champ but I can't have everything. Thanks in advance, Mark mine does this as well at startup. goes away after a couple minutes. switching to a slightly heavier oil may help. actually mine mainly does this when its time for an oil change. once theres clean oil in there, the clatter decreases greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 My '93 Loyale is doing this, too. I can't see how a heavier oil would help on start-up. The oil is cold and thick already, much thicker than the difference between a 10W-30 and a 20W-50. The heavier oil might be worse? Oil presssure can't be the issue, either, as the pressure is higher when the oil is cold (and thick). Maybe it is just too thick and the oil is bypassing, not flowing to the head where it belongs? Maybe that is why the additives help, they thin the oil so it flows better? I find there seems to be some difference with the kind of oil filters I use. And the oil itself might be involved, as there is considerable variation between oils. And don't forget the weather! It is getting cooler now. Oh, and mine does it worse after an oil change. So that is why I suspect the oil and/or filter is to blame. Old oil is thicker than new. I tend to use different oil and filters every time, so I haven't been able to really get a good handle on this, too many variables changing at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 First off, :clap: :clap: you posted your problem, then immediately realized how incredibly redundant the question was, took some initiative, and answered your own first questions!! Seriously, thank you! that does not happen enough here. Back on-subject, three things cause this problem: 1. low oil pressure in the engine; 2. low oil pressure inside the lifters themselves, caused by buildup of gunk and debris in the check valve that lets oil in but is supposed to hold it in and not let it out (or, rarely, caused by worn lifters); 3. or air bubbles in the oil stream, caused by a seal in the oil pump that has "pulled" in to the oil flow. If seafoam or MMO or ATF in the oil didnt clear it out, the next step is to reseal or replace your oil pump; even if your pressure is good, if the pump is old the chances are the seal has gotten squished. That is at least SLIGHTLY easier than replacing all 8 HLA's. search for mickey mouse seal, or oil pump, and it will get you more information. There is also a metal reinforced O ring that sits between the cam carriers, and the cylinder head proper, that seals the oil passage supplying the lifters. This seal can also sometimes get squished and cause the same problem as the mickey mouse seal. IF you decide to trust your oil pump, then make sure you have an FSM handy (click) and pull the top parts of your cylinder heads apart. Order the cam case O rings from http://www.thepartsbin.com (it is an Ishino Brand; OEM are the only metal reinforced o rings) and check each HLA per the FSM. IIRC, when placed in a cup of oil, and depressed repeatedly, they should eventually resist depressing further than 0.1 inch or something like that; any further and its "bad" but I had several that tested "bad" by this procedure and reinstalled them to no ill effect. It also comes and goes sometimes; it IS to a certain degree a characteristic of the engine. Ideally, they shouldn't make noise, but we have ALL dealt with it before and probably will again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PonchoCatalina Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 I had pronounced ticking in my 91 Loyale. I tried everything recommended, starting with the simplest and least invasive and working my way up: first Seafoam/MMO, then heavier oil, then resealed oil pump, then replaced cam-case o-rings, then replaced lifters with Mizpah rebuilts...still was ticking. Finally, about the third or fourth time I had the cam towers off, I took the driver's side cam out of its case and ran a fine wire through the "hidden passage" that is in one of the cam journals and lo-and-behold out came a big ol' chunk of solidified black RTV. Since then, no more ticking. I hope yours is a simpler fix. - Poncho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Generally, if the ticking has been going on for more than a very short time, you will have to replace the lifters and either MIC out the oil pump and reseal it, or just replace it completely with a new one. The problem is caused by air bubbles in the oil. These get inside the lifters and have a tough time comming out. Unfortunately they also cause the lifter to be "spongy" and this will wear out a lifter VERY quickly. To the point where it will not hold pressure and will tick forever - untill replaced. The trick to getting the EA82's to not tick is to never let them start. If you properly prime the oiling system after having them torn down, and you keep after the oil pump, seals, and cam carrier o-rings they will never start ticking. Once they have started it's almost always unfixable without replacing some or all of the lifters themselves. DO NOT add anything to your oil. This is just asking for trouble. At most you can do an ATF flush but don't leave anything in there long-term. The only thing that should be in your oil is OIL. Good clean oil. If it was supposed to be in the additive package then the manufacturer would have put it in there for you. You have no way of knowing (and probably no real idea) of what adding additives to your oil willy-nilly will do. It could (and a lot of times does) make your oil foam like shaving cream. This will just make the lifters worse. An ATF flush will clean anything that *can* be cleaned without splitting the case so just leave it at that. I've seen EA82's with a shade over 100k tick like crazy, and I own an 86 (before they changed to metal reinforced cam carrier o-rings) that has 240k and has never ticked even once. Just happens to have had excelent dealer only maintenance by the old man that owned it. And yes - RTV is Satans smelly cousin. I rarely use it in it's uncured state.... sometimes on water pumps for older engines. It has it's (extremely limited) uses, but I find them diminishing with each passing year. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoyale Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Well what about having a slight, I don't really want to call it a tick. but just a slight lifter sound. Will that wear them out too? And one other thing i've been wondering about was, (and i've done a search) Ok lets say i going to get up to 45mph and i slowly getting there (Not flooling it) And it's in 3rd and about 3500-4000rpm theres a sound on the drivers side that sounds like a very fast clatter. but if i let off the gas a little bit it go's away. Is that a lifter too.. And another way it happens is, if i'm doing about 10mph and feed the gas to about 1/4 of 1/2 throttle and it will shift to 1st and if i go up to 4000 it will do it too.. Is it not enough oil getting to that lifter? It's just vary hard to explane. I can't wait to get that oil pump done. And see a total diffrence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoyale Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Another thing i should add is, It does not make any other/worse noise when ice cold. So i don't think it's really serious. Still got to get the stuff done. I know it's easy. Even to re-time it is pretty easy. I've got Miles thread on both (Oil pump and Timing belts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueTrain Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Well what about having a slight, I don't really want to call it a tick. but just a slight lifter sound. Will that wear them out too? And one other thing i've been wondering about was, (and i've done a search) Ok lets say i going to get up to 45mph and i slowly getting there (Not flooling it) And it's in 3rd and about 3500-4000rpm theres a sound on the drivers side that sounds like a very fast clatter. but if i let off the gas a little bit it go's away. Is that a lifter too.. And another way it happens is, if i'm doing about 10mph and feed the gas to about 1/4 of 1/2 throttle and it will shift to 1st and if i go up to 4000 it will do it too.. Is it not enough oil getting to that lifter? It's just vary hard to explane. I can't wait to get that oil pump done. And see a total diffrence! you are a fantastic poet. take a bow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoyale Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Are you being kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudduck Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 you are a fantastic poet. take a bow. And one of these:banana: Whenever I hear ticking, I just turn up the stereo. That seems to make it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxgap Posted November 9, 2007 Author Share Posted November 9, 2007 Big Thanks to all. As has been mentioned in the thread replacing that Micky Mouse seal will get some bubbles in the oil. I had this done about 2 weeks ago. So maybe there might be some air working its way out. 32 degrees here yesterday morning and the little bugger didn't even make a tap on start up. Go figure..... I bought this car about 2 years ago from a guy who was not the original owner. He had it serviced it very infrequently and now I'm just getting the thing back in line again. Bits of dirt and carbon in the oil will just have to work their way out little at a time. Thanks again, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Big Thanks to all. As has been mentioned in the thread replacing that Micky Mouse seal will get some bubbles in the oil. I had this done about 2 weeks ago. So maybe there might be some air working its way out. Generally with good lifters and everything sealed as it should be it won't tick for more than 10 seconds on first startup. I've had my 86 completely torn down for head gaskets and it didn't tick at all. I primed the oiling system by cranking it with no plugs till the oil pressure gauge registered then started it. It never ticked before or after the reseal. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misledxcracker Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 My '86 coupe just clicks.... whenever she wants Cold, warm, whatever. Doesn't change oil pressure whatsoever... Drive thru's are FUN when she is in her "ticking mood" as it kinda scares people, especially the cashiers 102K, oil pump and seals are A-OK, Mobil 1 10-40, Mobil 1 oil filter.... I tend to turn the dial up on my 12" bass tube, it seems to alleviate the problem Oh yeah, and my old '86 sedan, same thing, low miles and maintained, ticked and ticked and ticked... new owner is probably still driving it, ticking and ticking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLoyale Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 When/once i get my oil pump in and everything back together, Should i prime the oil the same way? Or is it ok to just fire it up?? I know the car will tick for a few min after on oil change untill the oil really gets in there.. Just asking. -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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