96 2.5l OBW not starting

[WAWalker]

If you've followed the situation from the beginning, you know there were numerous issues that were dealt with during the work, making diagnosis of the no-start more difficult than usual.

 

No, I had quit following the situation. I did go back to the original thread, and read all of Sublute's posts. Seems that all the "numerous issues" being dealt with were mechanical. If there were any electrical issues I missed them.

 

All I am trying to get at is that...............IF this car WAS running before the head gaskets were replaced, then MOST likely the sensors and ECU are going to still be in good working order NOW. Unless they, or their related wiring, were dropped or damaged in some way during engine R&R.

 

If some how or another you determine that the injectors and/or plugs are not firing at the right time, but are in fact firing, were is this information going to lead you? That the ECU decided it doesn't want to perform after setting for X amount of time whith power disconected?

 

Or are you going to look at the mechanical parts that were removed and replaced, that have everything to do with syncing the compression, fuel injection, and ignition?

 

If you want to play with the O-scope to determine what ever it is you are trying to determine.

1) Figure out how to set up the scope to get a proper wave form of the crank signal.

2) Figure out how to set up the scope to get a proper wave form of the cam signal.

3) Figure out how to set up the scope to get a proper wave form of the injectors.

4) Figure out how to set up the scope to get a proper wave form of the the ignition primary trigger on each coil.

5) Back probe the connectors, and test each component seperatly to verify the integrity of said components.

5) If each component tests good...................ther is absolutly NO need to install dummy loads in thier place................then if you want start testing to see if every thing is in sync.

6) If something tests bad, diagnoise and repair.

[Cougar]

It would be nice to know the answer to my previous question.

 

Another thing to look into on this problem is to see if the crank and cam sensors got plugged into the the correct connectors. I seem to remember this happened to another member some time back. The connectors fit together fine but they were swapped around from what they needed to be. That sure would be something if it was the trouble after all this.

[OB99W]

No, I had quit following the situation. I did go back to the original thread, and read all of Sublute's posts. Seems that all the "numerous issues" being dealt with were mechanical. If there were any electrical issues I missed them.

 

All I am trying to get at is that...............IF this car WAS running before the head gaskets were replaced, then MOST likely the sensors and ECU are going to still be in good working order NOW. Unless they, or their related wiring, were dropped or damaged in some way during engine R&R.

 

If some how or another you determine that the injectors and/or plugs are not firing at the right time, but are in fact firing, were is this information going to lead you? That the ECU decided it doesn't want to perform after setting for X amount of time whith power disconected?

 

Or are you going to look at the mechanical parts that were removed and replaced, that have everything to do with syncing the compression, fuel injection, and ignition?

 

If you want to play with the O-scope to determine what ever it is you are trying to determine.

1) Figure out how to set up the scope to get a proper wave form of the crank signal.

2) Figure out how to set up the scope to get a proper wave form of the cam signal.

3) Figure out how to set up the scope to get a proper wave form of the injectors.

4) Figure out how to set up the scope to get a proper wave form of the the ignition primary trigger on each coil.

5) Back probe the connectors, and test each component seperatly to verify the integrity of said components.

5) If each component tests good...................ther is absolutly NO need to install dummy loads in thier place................then if you want start testing to see if every thing is in sync.

6) If something tests bad, diagnoise and repair.

At no time did I rule out a mechanical problem, nor only consider an electrical one. Modern vehicles typically have several sections that include both electronic and mechanical components; anyone who thinks a problem in one of those areas can only be attributed to the mechanical or electronic aspect is setting himself up for failure. The scope made it possible to verify that a suspected timing problem actually existed; I never said it would point directly to the cause. On the other hand, if the scope had indicated no timing discrepancy, that result could have helped eliminate certain possibilities and suggested the focus should be on others. Sometimes mechanical work leads to electrical problems; see: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82614

 

As to your six-point approach to oscilloscope usage, I hope you'll forgive me if I won't "play". After using sophisticated test equipment almost daily for more years than you've been alive, I've developed a pretty good sense of when to follow convention and when to be unorthodox, and I've successfully completed repairs that certain techs have been stymied by. Unfortunately, doing diagnosis by "remote control" such as on USMB sometimes has its limitations.

 

Finally, no one should forget that, after all, the ECU is just a dedicated computer, and like all computers, GIGO applies to it. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out . Connectors that didn't get plugged in fully (or at all), damaged or mismounted sensors, swapped plugs, etc., could each play a role in causing the ECU to spew "garbage" just as much as a mechanical problem can.

[sublute]

OK folks, I officially declare myself an idiot!!! I popped off the cam cover and YES!!!! the exhaust cam is on the intake!!! I'll check the other side to see if I got it wrong on the other side, too. I violated the measure twice cut once rule...

 

I'm really sorry to waste everybodys time and considerable effort on this. It has been a real learning experience and I understand this car so much more which should serve me well.

 

Question, I should be able to swap the cams with the engine in the car, right. You just have to be careful with the lifters falling out of the exhaust side??? The drivers side is going to be the really tight one...

 

Right now, I can't even get the cam cover out before taking the cam pulleys off and the back t-belt cover off. it seems.

 

I'm really feeling stupid at this moment (but relieved, too).

[sublute]

OK, I read the last postings and I would like to say that all the advice given has been really good. Diagnosing and helping somebody vicariously is difficult at best and the quality of the help is a testament to your knowledge and willing to help folks who do not now this stuff like the back of their hand. I know it has tried your patience.

 

I try to do this for people in areas of my expertise, so again, I really appreciate your help.

 

I tried to cover the suggestions from KISS to diagnosis with tools at hand. Again, it has been a real education that I'm sure will greatly help me in the future. The I did timing belts on the Loyale, swapped engines, changed clutches and a minor sensor problem which was easily rectified. The Loyale (as with all my Subaru's) has been a car with relatively few problems and I've not had to deal much with sensors or complicated problems. This OBW is by far the most complex job I've done to date.

 

It is my intent to donate to this board so others (and myself) can continue to benefit from it. Things are a little tight now, but that will change...

 

Thanks, and I'll stop calling myself an idiot when I get it going again...

[OB99W]

OK folks, I officially declare myself an idiot!!! I popped off the cam cover and YES!!!! the exhaust cam is on the intake!!! I'll check the other side to see if I got it wrong on the other side, too. I violated the measure twice cut once rule...

You obviously aren't an idiot; you took on a fairly involved task that most people would never even attempt, and overcame several impediments along the way. If there are any visitors from a distant planet, please raise your hand now -- okay, the rest of us will have to admit to being human, and making occasional mistakes. It's great that you've had the fortitude to stick with this and are continuing to make progress. Congratulations on being one step closer to resolving things. Hopefully, you're near the end and complete success is near.

 

I'm really sorry to waste everybodys time and considerable effort on this. [...]

I don't see any reason to apologize. Another human characteristic is pain avoidance; if it hurt anyone that much to be involved here, they probably wouldn't do it. In fact, I'd bet that most USMB members actually enjoy participating (or they have a slightly masochistic streak ).

[mnwolftrack]

Sublute, you're FAR from being an idiot. We all make mistakes, and this just happened to be a mistake, nothing more. It's 4 cams and lots of lifters and very easy to make a mistake. I'm very much relieved that you found the cause. Getting into the silly scope is where my abilities fall apart because I haven't used one before except back in college for about 20 minutes. You didn't waste anyone's time here. This board is here for the exact purpose of helping others. It helped me immensely, and I hope to give back as much too. Your two threads alone have a lot of troubleshooting and diagnostics work detailed, and rightfully should become part of the archives. I'm sure there's plenty in there to help other people as it is already.

 

 

 

I can't say if swapping the cams in the car would be easy, but it is doable (I haven't done it myself though). There are plenty of people on here who have done head gasket jobs with the engine still in the car. It's tight as you can see, but doable. You may want to factor how long you think it'll take you to remove the engine again vs. how cramped your hands are going to be. Having those lifters threaten to fall out when the cam is removed might require a creative solution to keep them in place if the cam is removed.

 

What I can say is I'm sure I'm not the only one who's been waiting on pins and needles to finally see that post that declares you've found the cause.

 

Something to think about--if your cams are in the wrong positions, are the lifters in the wrong spots too? If you're not positive, you'll want to check valve clearance as well.

 

No matter what mistakes I've made, I'd much rather do the work myself than pay someone else to do it. The only things I don't do myself are things that require speciality equipment (such as for boring an engine, etc....).

 

As always, keep us updated on the progress!

[Cougar]

Glad to hear you found the trouble and I think you just need to look at it as a learning experience. We all have our own stories to tell about mechanical maintenance course level 101. What? What's that? You want me to tell you one of my stories? Wel-llll ok.

 

In more years back than I care to remember I was just starting out on a drive in my trusty old '55 Chevy that I only paid 75 dollars for, though back then that was a fair amount of cash to me. Just pulling out of the driveway the car died and all the cranking in the world wouldn't get it started again. Later on, checking the compression I saw that all the cylinders were either very low or had no compression. I then determined that all the valves must be burned in the heads (I can hear the snickering already). After I had the heads rebuilt and asked the machinest how bad they were he said "they weren't really that bad". Having both heads rebuilt cost me about 3 times what I paid for the whole car. After I installed the heads again I quickly found out that the no compression problem was still there. Fortunately I didn't then decide all the pistons were bad and replace those. I somehow got unto the correct problem (as I'm sure everyone here has already correctly diagnosed; and you can stop the laughing now also) that the TIMING CHAIN had slipped. This was a real lesson for me in not jumping to conclusions when troubleshooting a problem. A lesson that I still remember today and, 'that's all I have to say about that'.

[johnceggleston]

Glad to hear you found the trouble and I think you just need to look at it as a learning experience. We all have our own stories to tell about mechanical maintenance course level 101. What? What's that? You want me to tell you one of my stories? Wel-llll ok.

 

In more years back than I care to remember I was just starting out on a drive in my trusty old '55 Chevy that I only paid 75 dollars for, though back then that was a fair amount of cash to me. Just pulling out of the driveway the car died and all the cranking in the world wouldn't get it started again. Later on, checking the compression I saw that all the cylinders were either very low or had no compression. I then determined that all the valves must be burned in the heads (I can hear the snickering already). After I had the heads rebuilt and asked the machinest how bad they were he said "they weren't really that bad". Having both heads rebuilt cost me about 3 times what I paid for the whole car. After I installed the heads again I quickly found out that the no compression problem was still there. Fortunately I didn't then decide all the pistons were bad and replace those. I somehow got unto the correct problem (as I'm sure everyone here has already correctly diagnosed; and you can stop the laughing now also) that the TIMING CHAIN had slipped. This was a real lesson for me in not jumping to conclusions when troubleshooting a problem. A lesson that I still remember today and, 'that's all I have to say about that'.

 

i replaced the rings on a 73 datsun pickup only to learn that it was a carburator problem. it sure did run good though.

[WAWalker]

At no time did I rule out a mechanical problem, nor only consider an electrical one. Modern vehicles typically have several sections that include both electronic and mechanical components; anyone who thinks a problem in one of those areas can only be attributed to the mechanical or electronic aspect is setting himself up for failure. The scope made it possible to verify that a suspected timing problem actually existed; I never said it would point directly to the cause. On the other hand, if the scope had indicated no timing discrepancy, that result could have helped eliminate certain possibilities and suggested the focus should be on others. Sometimes mechanical work leads to electrical problems; see: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=82614

Totaly irrelavant. I read nothing about wiring harnesses being swaped during the work done on this '96 OB. Swaping wirring harnesses would probably fall under electrical work anyway.

 

As to your six-point approach to oscilloscope usage, I hope you'll forgive me if I won't "play". After using sophisticated test equipment almost daily for more years than you've been alive, I've developed a pretty good sense of when to follow convention and when to be unorthodox, and I've successfully completed repairs that certain techs have been stymied by. Unfortunately, doing diagnosis by "remote control" such as on USMB sometimes has its limitations.

I was not trying to tell anyone how to use a oscilloscope. I have no clue how to use that type of scope. I diagnose and repair Subaru's 5-6 days a week. I have invested in tools specificly made for this, and training to do so. I was questioning the approch, not your knowlage on using the tool.

 

Finally, no one should forget that, after all, the ECU is just a dedicated computer, and like all computers, GIGO applies to it. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_in,_garbage_out . Connectors that didn't get plugged in fully (or at all), damaged or mismounted sensors, swapped plugs, etc., could each play a role in causing the ECU to spew "garbage" just as much as a mechanical problem can.

True. But from experiance, I have learned that the fastest way to a proper diagnosis is by starting with the basics, not the bizzar.

 

 

There is no question in my mind that you and many others are WAY smarter than I. And I don't come to this fourm to get into pissing contests to try and prove that I know more than the next guy. As I said, I work on Subarus for a living, I come here in my spare time to try and help others who are not willing, or can not afford to pay someone like me to work on their car. And at the end of the day the satisfaction and/or money is in fixing the cars.

[WAWalker]

Sublute,

 

I am glad you are getting to the bottom of this. And thank you for sharing what you have found. I think a lot of people would have been to embarased to admit a mistake and would have just went away leaving everyone hanging.

 

Don't beat yourself up about this. Your not the first to make this mistake.

 

As far as switching the cams with the engine in the car.

 

Pull the battery and washer bottle.

Pull the air cleaner box.

You will have to pull the timing belt, cam sprockets, and probably the inner timing belt covers.

This is a '96 so the lifters are hydrolic, if they fall out and get mixed up it is not the end of the world.

When putting the lifters back in the exhaust side, get some grease that is sticky, Lucas Red and Tacky, or some type of water proof grease. A little of this on the lifters will keep them in place while you install the cam.

 

Keep up the good work, and try to have fun doing it:)

[sublute]

Well, good news. I got around to switching cams on the 1-3 side this morning and noticed again that the cam cap on the seal end is marked and visible from the outside. I then looked at the 2-4 side from the outside and they are in the right position. I was really careful to keep all the parts with the relative cam. I guess I lost the Big Picture on this side. Of course, there is Murphy's law...

 

I must have gotten confused when I rotated the engine on the stand. The oil pan was off which is the obvious up-down reference. Duh...

 

I hope to have it back together and running???!!! this afternoon.

[idosubaru]

awesome!

 

i guess it sounds like you're already done, but when trying to get lifters to hang in place without falling i use grease and jacking that side of the car up will give some lift to that side of the engine and gravity will begin to help a bit more.

[sublute]

Hello everybody, Vrrrrrmmmmmmmm!!!!!!

 

Started right up.....

 

There was enough oil suction on the lifters that they stayed sucked in place on the exhaust side. On the other side the upper lifters were hard to take out because of this suction.

 

Question? Do I have to go through any sequence for the ECU to re-learn? I remember reading about an idle time and such.

 

Thanks again for all your help!

[WAWalker]

Hello everybody, Vrrrrrmmmmmmmm!!!!!!

 

Started right up.....

 

There was enough oil suction on the lifters that they stayed sucked in place on the exhaust side. On the other side the upper lifters were hard to take out because of this suction.

 

Question? Do I have to go through any sequence for the ECU to re-learn? I remember reading about an idle time and such.

 

Thanks again for all your help!

 

Just drive it!

 

Good work, glad you got it fixed.

[Cougar]

Way to go Sublute. You're rock'n now. You went through some frustration on this repair but I'm sure you learned a lot in the process. Another happy Soob owner on the road again. Drive on.

[sublute]

I'm getting a CEL. This doesn't surprise me after the amount of smoke that came out of the tail pipe initially. Should I just disconnect the battery overnight and see if that clears it. If not, pull the codes?

[Cougar]

You could disconnect the battery for about a half hour to reset the memory but if it were me I would want to see what the code is. If things are really ok the code will go away by itself. Autozone can read the codes for you if you want to do that.

[johnceggleston]

and the winner is, drum roll please:

 

let's hear it for 85T-REX :banana::banana: who suggested double checking the cam shafts back on page 11.

 

and congrats to sublute for not giving up. and getting it running. :banana::banana::banana:

 

and many thanks to all who helped, :banana: it was a great learning experience for me.

[mnwolftrack]

Way to go sublute!!!!

 

There isn't a ECU break in period. Just drive, as previously mentioned. There isn't anything special you need to do as far as the ECU is concerned. There is normal engine break-in procedures you may need to follow depending on how much work you did, but nothing related to the ECU. Considering you head cylinder head work done, you will want to change the oil soon. I don't recall if you had all the valves replaced or not, and I don't recall you having any block work done (honing, decking, etc...), so about the only "break-in" procedures you'll need are to change the oil and check your accessory belt tensions (not the timing belt), fluid leaks, etc....

 

While it would be nice to know what's causing the check engine light, it "may" be an old code or something no longer causing problem. I would disconnect the battery and let the code reset, but if you happen to be driving by a parts store, see if they will read the code for you. They may not be willing to delete it for you though. In those cases, you may be able to let them let YOU press the delete button. This could also be a good excuse to go to Walmart and get the $70 code reader/deleter if you have money burning a hole in your pocket. This is what I have:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Equus-3030-Diagnostic-Post-1996-Vehicles/dp/B000EVYGQY/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_1_txt?pf_rd_p=304485601&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-2&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000EVWDAK&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1BRTPYHTXHY5880S9EHF

 

And I bought it at Walmart. I've seen it's price vary anywhere from $50 to $99 at Walmart and other stores. It's very easy to use.

[sublute]

I took the battery off for a few hours and then back on. No CEL. I took it for a shakedown drive. All seems well. I saw a few bubbles in the expansion tank when I idled pre-cruise. I let it cool down and added more coolant to top it off. I'll keep my eyes on the tank just to be sure.

[85T-REX]

Congratulations Sublute!!!!!!

 

I'm very glad to see you didn't have any more problems with the mix-up. You should be good for at least 200k more miles.

 

Great job!

[tomson1355]

Congrats, Sublute! And thanks for sharing as the whole thing was very instructive for me, and more fun than reading a good book. If you've got a website for your lutes, would you mind posting the URL?

 

Don't beat yourself up. I've made several worse mistakes in recent memory. Profit from it and move on. I was very impressed with the cool-headedness you displayed through the whole thing. Life is tough with small children and working wives. I congratulate you on making it through.

 

My compliments also to all who helped, especially OB99, Wawalker and Wolftrack, who went out of their way to offer help, and who managed to keep things reasonably cool. You guys were very generous with your time and advice, and should be proud. Thanks.

 

What a great board!

 

Tom

[sublute]

Hello All,

 

I was driving last night in the snow flurries and I noticed the CEL was on...

This mornings trip to Autozone yielded a P0441 code which is "EVAP system incorrect purge flow". I think this must be from the evaporation canister soaking up so much gas from all that cranking.... I imagine this will go away once the canister settles down to a normal state? I'm going to clear the code and see...

 

The overflow tank seems to have no bubbles happening. It runs smoothly and I am HAPPY!!!!. Guarded optimissm aside....

 

To tomson1335, I don't have a website yet, but it is on the list of things to do... I will attach a few samples of my work on this note. Sorry for the OT image posting.

[OB99W]

I was driving last night in the snow flurries and I noticed the CEL was on...

This mornings trip to Autozone yielded a P0441 code which is "EVAP system incorrect purge flow".[...]

The purge control solenoid valve is mounted under the intake manifold runner for cylinder #3. You could check that things didn't get disconnected or damaged during the other work.

 

[...]I will attach a few samples of my work on this note. Sorry for the OT image posting.

Nice work! Do you do your own soundhole/cover carving? (Yeah, it's off-topic, but after a thread so long, what percentage does this add? )