96 2.5l OBW not starting

[WAWalker]

Sorry,

I should have read the whole post before offering the help.

 

Ingnition timing advance on start up is normal.

 

Compression is good. Cam timing is good.

 

If the intake and exhaust cams were switched around, I would think your compression readings would show it. Haven't tried it so don't know for sure.

 

If you are sure you have good fuel supply and good spark...................I would like to see the data stream for the ECM. See if you can get your hands of a scan tool.

[subaru360]

OK so the belt is verifed to be on right. You have good cranking compression. The injectors are firing. You have fuel pressure.

 

Have you considered that you might have just fouled the plugs so bad that they won't fire? At this point $10 for fresh plugs doesn't seem too bad.

 

Also are you getting spark at all 4 plug wires and what does the spark look like? Is it bright and blue or dull and orange?

 

I'm sure you'll get it going.

[Skip]

I' hoping your scope is dual trace.

 

I'd like to see one trace of the O-scope

on the cam sensor

the other trace on an injector

They should be in sink.

 

Then the crank and the ignitor

same sink

 

BTW wet plugs have a problem firing somertimes.

 

 

Maybe your ECU has taken a powder for some reason.

[sublute]

These plugs are the platinum ones....so, $40+ bucks.... Are plugs toast if they are soaked in gas??? At one point, I took them out, blew them out with compressed air, and dried them out with a 500 watt heat lamp. I also fitted a rubber tube to the compressed air and blew out each cylinder to clear any gas. I'm sure they must be full of gas again... Should I repeat? I could try the old plugs in there. I used anti-seize compound on the plugs and wiped it off in case that was causing a problem with grounding...

 

I checked the spark with old plugs,with new plugs and compared it with an old plug from this car on the '92 Loyale. It doesn't have the waste spark, so slightly different... The old Loyale ran just fine even on 3 cyl... well, a little rough.

 

The scope is dual trace, so I could check the injector timing. I'd have to find out what voltage the injector sees when "on". The ignition switch would have to be on and rotate by hand, right? Each trigger on the cam should turn an injector on for one cyl. at the same time??

 

 

There is a Viper 500 security system in this thing. Is there any way this could be involved? If it is armed, and I try to start it, the starter doesn't run... Do they have any other interlink??? straws....

 

How do I know the Idle air control is working properly? idle air control has battery voltage in the center lead of the harness and measures 8.7 and 8.9 ohms across 1-2 and 2-3. of the unit.

 

Maybe the ECU needs to be looked at, too...

[Skip]

your scope should have an "auto" setting for trace voltage?

 

It will be between 5 an 14 Vdc

Yes the igniton will have to be on

and

you should have one of these by now?

[sublute]

I burnt an old cheap (and I mean cheap) remote switch up. I then replaced it with a wall lamp switch. I guess a momentary switch would be safer... So far I just used this for getting the timing marks back in position. I guess if it happened to start!!! while testing, that could be bad for the starter???

 

I'm thinking I should pull the new plugs, dry the cylinders out and try the old plugs???

 

I was under the impression that if the car doesn't start, then there are no error codes? Is a data stream still happening? I could check Autozone to see if the "rent" a scan tool.

 

I'm still scratching my head, but there is almost a hole there now...

[OB99W]

[...]Ingnition timing advance on start up is normal.[...]

Really? I'll admit to not having had a reason to check that on a Subaru, but it's not what's commonly done.

 

During cranking, the usual goal is to get the engine to fire closely to when the piston is at top dead center (TDC), or even just a bit past that point (after top dead center, ATDC). Firing significantly in advance (before top dead center, BTDC) will fight the starter's effort because each power stroke will try to turn the engine in the wrong direction. It's only at idle and higher engine speeds that progressively advanced timing is advantageous, for reasons (charge mixture/flame front travel rate/timing of maximum pressure) that I won't go into detail about now.

[OB99W]

I burnt an old cheap (and I mean cheap) remote switch up. I then replaced it with a wall lamp switch. I guess a momentary switch would be safer... So far I just used this for getting the timing marks back in position. I guess if it happened to start!!! while testing, that could be bad for the starter???[...]

No more so than holding the key in the start position after the engine has started. The starter itself is protected from "overrunning", if it isn't for a prolonged period.

[sublute]

So the 20-30 deg BTDC is not good. Could the ECU be erroneously advancing it? What else could cause this?

[WAWalker]

Is this an auto trans. or MT.

 

Ignition timing specs: AT 20deg +/- 8 deg. MT 14 deg. +/- 8 deg. If it is an auto your dead on.

 

I don't feel like disableing my car to check where the timing is while cranking. But on start up it advances 6 deg. More air, more fuel, more timing on a cold start IS perfectly normal.

 

If I get board I might check to see what happens during a crank-no start.

 

The car ran before. Check the basics. ECU's and sensors do not go bad just sitting there while your working on something eles. At least I've not seen it in the 10+ years of working on these cars.

[nipper]

This has gotten so long, forgive me if i repeat someone.

 

Have you done a compression test? If so what are the numbers again.

 

nipper

[montana105]

as Nipper said,an accurate comp test is once again needed. From all the factors i'm seeing your timing is off,I think it's time to recheck and get a honest opinion on your timing belt marks lining up.not to be rude but i don't think your belt is lined up properly.yes your ECM may be shot but I don't know that i'm seeing the ability to diagnose that.From my personal experience 1 or 2 teeth makes a big difference in these Subies,and as I keep seeing you keep saying you're gonna see if the zone rents scanners but we never hear

the results.Let us know if you ever retrieve scan codes or check your timing.

[OB99W]

[...]Ignition timing specs: AT 20deg +/- 8 deg. MT 14 deg. +/- 8 deg. If it is an auto your dead on.[...]

Isn't that the spec at 700 rpm, not at cranking? Most modern cars run about 10 degrees of basic timing advance, which at cranking speeds puts the peak cylinder pressure about at TDC; 20-30 degrees of advance during cranking would typically make starting hard.

 

 

If I get board I might check to see what happens during a crank-no start.

Please let us know what you find, if you feel motivated.

 

 

By the way, my original suggestion to use a timing light to check ignition was just to verify the spark voltage was sufficient to trigger the light, not necessarily to check ignition timing. The basic timing should be determined by the position of the crank sensor relative to the crank sprocket reluctors, and is therefore fixed under normal circumstances. The ECU can modify the timing, but during cranking no further advance is normally added.

 

Speaking of timing -- it's certainly possible to have both spark and fuel (and other necessities as air and compression), but obviously to ignite the mixture they have to occur with the correct relationship. Yes, wet plugs would indicate the injectors are operating, but it doesn't confirm that they're doing so during the proper engine cycle. After all the previous discussion, I'll assume that cam sprocket (and therefore reluctor) positioning isn't an issue. So, is there any possibility that the injector connections for cylinders #2 and #4 accidentally got reversed? (I think it's hard to do that on #1 and #3, due to the wiring length.)

[OB99W]

I did a bit of research. According to Subaru, the basic ignition timing at start should be 10 degrees. See http://endwrench.com/images/pdfs/Fuel.pdf , top of page 12.

[sublute]

Thanks again for all your responses.

 

automatic trannie and as I was cranking it was 20 BTDC and as I continued, it seemed to advance to 30. I will check this again

 

First let me say again, I think the timing belt is on just fine. When I put it on, I was very careful and when I checked it again after much cranking, all the marks on the crank and cams line up, it's just marks on the belt are one tooth to the right all around. It's all relative? see photo's on earlier post. If I took the belt off and moved it one tooth to the left and all the cams and crank stayed in the same position, it would be the same... Am I thinking wrong on this? I still do have the question why it is one tooth to the right...

 

I couldn't have mixed up the injector connectors. I only ever had one off at a time. I'm going to scope the injector signal/ cam relationship today and throw in the old plugs. I really haven't gotten around to getting a code reader as I was under the impression from posts that none were produced during cranking/ no start condition. If this is wrong, then I'll try to get one.

 

Compression-

#1-175

#3-165

#2-173

#4-I just couldn't get the plug out on the night I was doing it. I was getting tired and sick. (sick and tired, too)

 

I tested 3 times for each cyl. and the numbers were consistent.

 

I didn't have the throttle open when I did the test. Is this going to produce bad results?

[OB99W]

[...]It's all relative? see photo's on earlier post. If I took the belt off and moved it one tooth to the left and all the cams and crank stayed in the same position, it would be the same... Am I thinking wrong on this? I still do have the question why it is one tooth to the right...

Yes, it's all relative; as long as all the cam and crank marks are in the right places, the belt marks being consistently one tooth off is meaningless. The mathematical relationship between the number of teeth on the belt versus those on the sprockets results in many engine revolutions being needed before the belt comes back to the exact alignment with the sprocket marks, but that has no effect on timing.

 

 

I couldn't have mixed up the injector connectors. I only ever had one off at a time.[...]

Good, that's one less thing to consider.

 

 

Compression-

[...]

I didn't have the throttle open when I did the test. Is this going to produce bad results?

Not opening the throttle might result in slightly lower compression readings, that's all.

 

 

After checking that fuel and spark are properly synced, there are a couple of simple things to try. First, make sure the battery is fully charged; if voltage during cranking is lower than about 10 volts (11 would be better), a start becomes less likely. Secondly, if the plugs get fuel-wetted, holding the accelerator to the floor while cranking will help clear things.

[sublute]

Couldn't I use a timing light and DMM on the injector to see if spark and injection is co-ordinated. The injection should happen before spark right?

[mnwolftrack]

Based on your pictures, the belt is on correctly. You are correct in that it is all relative in that all the pulleys are now off 1 tooth. You'd either have to reverse rotate the engine to get it back to the proper revolution # to get the belt lined up just perfect again, or you'd have to rotate in the proper direction many many times to get it to come back. I don't know how many revolutions that would take, but I've heard it's 2 times the number of teeth on the belt (like over 200+). The pulleys are no longer "off." The belt is, rather, the belt marks are. The belt itself is correctly aligned. What ultimately matters is the # of teeth between pulleys.

 

I know you've tested compression a few times now, and the #'s look good, even with the throttle body closed. I've never bothered to open it on any vehicle I've done a compression test on. The engine will still make compression, and your numbers look good anyway. What will affect compression values more is leaving all the spark plugs installed while trying to do a compression test. This WILL make the numbers lower because the engine turns over much slower. Regarding cylinder #4 and the fact you haven't done a compression test on it--even if cylinder #4 was 0 compression, the engine should still turn over and run.

 

As previously stated, sensors and other things don't just go bad from sitting and doing nothing. There shouldn't be any problem with the fuel degrading because it just hasn't been that long. I'm not familiar with silly scopes, so I can't provide much help there but it does sound like it's picking up the signals from the sensors properly.

 

Compression looks good, so that still brings us back to fuel or spark being the problem. I can't recall, did you already comment on how the spark looks (e.g. blue and bright or faint and yellow or orange)?

 

If you watched that video on youtube that I provided the link to, you will see which of the 4 strokes the injection occurs in relation to spark, but yes, it has to occur before spark because otherwise spark has nothing to .

 

This is an incredibly frustrating problem, even for me. Chances are, it's going to end up being something either really easy, or something really bizarre. Either way, it's obviously been hard to track down.

[WAWalker]

I have to ask.

 

Does the car have a full tank of gas?

 

Did you buy chance get the fuel feed and return lines mixed up?

[sublute]

Yes, plenty of gas... I checked the fuel lines with a photo before I took it apart... I checked this as I was putting it together. I also took the feed line off and obseved the gas flow into a container.

 

I'm getting wires hooked up to check the injection/spark relationship.

 

I'm going to check the quality of the spark as I have the remote switch hooked up now. Before I was observing from the drivers seat...

 

Yes, I was just saying to myself that it must be something so simple or bazarre. Simple makes me look just that and bizarre I can deal with. It tests the power of reasoning and logic....(silent scream....)

[OB99W]

Couldn't I use a timing light and DMM on the injector to see if spark and injection is co-ordinated.

Not easily; even at cranking speed, these things happen more rapidly than you'd be likely to discern.

 

 

The injection should happen before spark right?

Hopefully ! The injector should open during the intake stroke; the spark should occur just a bit after the end of the injector pulse.

[sublute]

When I'm checking for a voltage on the injector, I am looking for a DC voltage across the two leads in the harness, right? If so, I'm getting no voltage on injector #1 when I crank it. Ignition on, of course.

 

Should the injector be hooked up and back probed?

[OB99W]

[...]I'm getting wires hooked up to check the injection/spark relationship.[...]

At cranking speed, you should see the leading edge of the injector pulse occur somewhat less than 100 milliseconds before the spark; its trailing edge should normally be just before the spark.

[Skip]

Should the injector be hooked up and back probed?

 

Yes,

 

The older systems (EA82T) had +12 Vdc fed to the injectors through the dropping resistors.

The ECU provided the ground side of the control circuit.

I don't know if the EJ series works his way.

If this is the case?? you should see approx 8- 12 Vdc

on one side of the injector with the key on.

 

OB99W - knows his stuff

maybe he'll chime in.

[OB99W]

Skip is basically correct; the yellow wire to each injector is fed with battery voltage via the main relay. Each remaining wire is pulled to ground by the ECU when appropriate. Therefore, by connecting a voltmeter across an injector connector with it disconnected from the injector, you'd likely see only a low averaged reading on an analog meter; with a DMM, the characteristics of the particular meter would determine what it might read. This is a reason why some people use "noid lights" to troubleshoot injector problems.

 

 

I'd suggest verifying the presence of about 12 volts with respect to ground at each of the injector connectors' yellow wires with ignition on. You can do that by pulling each connector in turn, no need to backprobe for that check. Let us know what you find, and we can progress from there.