beataru Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 why are ram engines prices so rediculous? I mean I know I could get Forged pistons, for way less then what they charge, and if I got them coated, they would still cost less than their pistons. I want forged internals, and i wouldnt mind rams name in my mod list but, I am not spending that much on this turd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamCF Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 They cater mainly to the experimental aircraft builders. (which generaly have way more $$$$ than us) I think the fact they'll do engines/parts for auto's and such is just for a little extra business. I would love one of thier fully built EA81s in my GL. Oh yes. Think I'll just have to settle for one of thier rebuild kits though down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 That does make sense that airplane peeps generally have deeper pockets than us but, still, they are not competitively priced with anyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 That does make sense that airplane peeps generally have deeper pockets than us but, still, they are not competitively priced with anyone... Yah, they actually are. The markup is a bit higher than it would be for a racing engine, but thats only on the engine packages. When you consider that for 10 grand, you get 140 horse engine complete turnkey, with fuel management and everything, ready to hook up to the reduction drive unit for your airplane... Thats not bad. Piston sets at 5-600? not cheap, but not astronomical. Performance costs MONEY. Lots of it. We just aren't used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 Price out a FAA approved Rotax and you'll see they are bargain basement cheap in fact. There's NO market for these engines in cars. You really think anyone is building performance EA series cars? If I had the money to do it I still wouldn't. Neither would you - you just aren't old enough or smart enough to realize that yet. If I had that kind of money I would be building Clevelands or 400 SB's for a Pantera or Ferrari 308's or something. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 why are ram engines prices so rediculous? . they aren't. if they were they wouldn't be in business. they have been around for a long time, people are paying those prices and for good reason in my oppinion. doesn't seem expensive to me, not for what they do. rebuilds run $2,000 at least. it's far more than a rebuild, they redesign the heads, custom fuel supply, specially pin the blocks, have vast experience with EA stuff...and on and on and on. then all the custom oil pans, engine management and various other high expense parts that other places can not do. many of their ideas and designs are were done by them. if they had mark ups like other industries they're engine prices would be far more. this is way more than a "rebuild" if that's what you're comparing it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archemitis Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 That does make sense that airplane peeps generally have deeper pockets than us but, still, they are not competitively priced with anyone... thats cuz they have no competetors, I think its all reasonable. im all about a high hp ea81, I'll be spending some money with them soon. if you want cheap engine internals you have to run a small block chevy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 the other thibng you have to look at, these engines are generally going into a single engine plane. wouldnt yoou prefer to spend a few $$ more and know its going to be safe and reliable at the power levels they run at? im always willing to pay a little more to know that the parts will hold up to abuse and what not. sure, you could get the same performance from cheaper parts, but for how long? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamCF Posted November 17, 2007 Share Posted November 17, 2007 the other thibng you have to look at, these engines are generally going into a single engine plane. wouldnt yoou prefer to spend a few $$ more and know its going to be safe and reliable at the power levels they run at? im always willing to pay a little more to know that the parts will hold up to abuse and what not. sure, you could get the same performance from cheaper parts, but for how long? You hit the nail square on the head. No room for skimping at 10,000 feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beataru Posted November 17, 2007 Author Share Posted November 17, 2007 As far as pistons go, its hard to get unreliable ones if you have half a mind, I was thinking of CP pistons that they would be cheaper, and equal or better in quality, you guys are right about there knowledge on these engines, their heads are fantastic. Small blocks are soo cheap, but as the old guys call them "pancakes" are the best ever! I should have realized that duh, those airplane guys have the dough in there pockets to spend, so they charge for it. Why would I want to make my car faster, even with its stock engine? Hmm... I dunno, because I am a CAR guy, and this is what people like us do, If I had all the money in the world then sure, I wouldnt be driving this thing, but I dont. So I do my research, and I will hopefully have a fairly fast "shaggin wagon" (thats what my friends call it) that will kick the snot out of some mid-life crisis old men and their 350z's. but thats not going to happen for a fairly long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamCF Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 As far as pistons go, its hard to get unreliable ones if you have half a mind, I was thinking of CP pistons that they would be cheaper, and equal or better in quality, you guys are right about there knowledge on these engines, their heads are fantastic. Small blocks are soo cheap, but as the old guys call them "pancakes" are the best ever! I should have realized that duh, those airplane guys have the dough in there pockets to spend, so they charge for it. Why would I want to make my car faster, even with its stock engine? Hmm... I dunno, because I am a CAR guy, and this is what people like us do, If I had all the money in the world then sure, I wouldnt be driving this thing, but I dont. So I do my research, and I will hopefully have a fairly fast "shaggin wagon" (thats what my friends call it) that will kick the snot out of some mid-life crisis old men and their 350z's. but thats not going to happen for a fairly long time hehe Yeah. Even if I had bottomless pockets. I'd still keep my old GL and use my endless cash flow to see just how far one could be taken. It's not a matter of doing this to the best rig for the job. It's a matter of doing the best things I can to THIS rig, cause I can. (or can after saving up) I could have bought something better for RallyCross than an old GL (the reason I bought it). But I chose it cause it was the odd choice and I just don't like the easy route. And I'm a sucker for a flat pushrod engine. But now I be gettin' off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi subbie Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 do they sell heads just for ea81s? and how much would they cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 do they sell heads just for ea81s? and how much would they cost? A LOT. They will convert your heads to dual-port for $1094. I'm not sure if that's for one or both, but either way it's not cheap. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi subbie Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 ouchy. i thought it wuld be round that price. i wonder how much sub4 sells there heads for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[HTi]Johnson Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 ....you just aren't old enough or smart enough to realize that yet. If I had that kind of money I would be building Clevelands or 400 SB's for a Pantera or Ferrari 308's or something. GD WTF is up with this Pius attitude. "You're not old enough..." "You don't have the experience..." "Look at my post count compared to your's...must mean I know more." Dude, it's not about age. And I would spend the money to have a 140 hp ea81 wagon, if I had it. Just to say I had one. I'm tired of this "you don't know what you're talking about" crap. Maybe we don't have the experience you have...I guess all of us didn't pop out with all of this knowledge, like you. We have to learn it. I'm greatfull of your contributions, experience, and knowledge but that doesn't give you the reason to act almighty. To the original post: I learned this from WJM... cheap-reliable-performance....pick two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWX Posted November 20, 2007 Share Posted November 20, 2007 Johnson']To the original post: I learned this from WJM... cheap-reliable-performance....pick two. :lol: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Johnson']Dude' date=' it's not about age. And I would spend the money to have a 140 hp ea81 wagon, if I had it. Just to say I had one.[/quote'] Then you sir, will never have much of anything. Not with an attitude towards money like that. RAM engines are for aircraft. If you are silly enough to slap down the money for one for your car of course they will sell you one. And laugh about it after you leave. The RAM 115 HP EA81 is about $7,000 - give or take. Now compare that to a 115 HP Rotax at around $25,000..... no really - go compare the specs. About the only thing the Rotax has is a slightly ligher weight. To the aircraft guys, this is a BARGAIN. If you put it in a car you are paying for all the wrong stuff. It's not DESIGNED for a car. It will fit, but the RPM range is all wrong, and half the modifications and testing you are paying for isn't needed for a car that will never get 6 inches off the ground. If you had a plane to put it in then all those mods and the testing would make sense, but they simply do not on the ground. To get the 140 HP they move the RPM range higher - a LOT higher. They run these at around 7,000 or more. The point is that for half the price (or less) you could easily get just as much performance from an EA81 designed for the street instead of for the air. You are wasting your money on parts, modifications, and labor you will NEVER use. Consider the EJ22 swap and it makes no sense at all. Lets see - $7,000 for an EA81 rated at 140, or I could get an N/A EJ22, and with headers and a chip I could have the same 140 HP for about $1000 - without special hard to source parts, or any real modifications at all. I know which one I'll have. RAM isn't hurting for customers without my money and it's going to stay that way. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudduck Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Wasn't there someone on here a while back that had a 140 hp or 150 hp ea81 in a brat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subyrally Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 gd, i hate to say it, but if you want to rag on the ea81, start another thread. you know, some people like doing things because they are different, the road less traveled so to speak. but sure, if you wanted to get power with out spending a lot of money, you could do an ej swap. but seriously,hop of the soapbox, and quit being so agressive about the ej swap. not everyone wants to go ej in their cars, i dont, not in my brat anyways. and post count means nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[HTi]Johnson Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Consider the EJ22 swap and it makes no sense at all. Lets see - $7,000 for an EA81 rated at 140, or I could get an N/A EJ22, and with headers and a chip I could have the same 140 HP for about $1000 - without special hard to source parts, or any real modifications at all. I know which one I'll have. RAM isn't hurting for customers without my money and it's going to stay that way. GD Yes. You could do a EJ swap. You could do the same that everyone else is doing. Or, I know the aircraft engine is rated for a certain RPM band...that's higher than most anything that's pratical to a car. I was trying to make a point that having a "powerfull" ea81 engine in an ea81 car would be awesome, if I had the money, I'd make it happen. You can make anything powerful and fast by modifying or even putting a whole other type of engine in it. Wait, it must be my naive age and experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudduck Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=28367&highlight=150hp+ea81 Theres a link. It was Qman who built the 150 hp Brat. Hell, if you got the knowhow, why not build a ea81? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Hell, if you got the knowhow, why not build a ea81? Didn't ever say there's no reason to build an EA81. I'm working on one myself. I said that it's poor judgement to BUY one from RAM. Their engines and prices are not geared toward the automotive crowd. I love the EA81 and will probably stick with it for my off-roader. Building one is an excelent idea, but can be done MUCH, MUCH cheaper than what RAM does. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 Theres a link. It was Qman who built the 150 hp Brat. That's debateable. His modifications certainly don't add up to a 75 HP increase on paper. I've seen the engine, and I've seen it perform. It's definately got more than stock, but it's never been dynoed by anything other than the seat of his pants. Ken's a great guy, but I respectfully say that this is not an accurate assesment of that engine. If it were, then RAM's 140 HP engine wouldn't need even 1/4th of the modifications they have done to it, let alone dual port heads. Just compareing the differences, and knowing that the RAM stuff is dynoed, and there's many more than just one person that have run them..... I can't see how Ken's engine could have 10 HP more than it while only requireing unmodified single port heads, some 1600 pistons, and a Delta cam. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daeron Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 gd, i hate to say it, but if you want to rag on the ea81, start another thread. you know, some people like doing things because they are different, the road less traveled so to speak. but sure, if you wanted to get power with out spending a lot of money, you could do an ej swap. but seriously,hop of the soapbox, and quit being so agressive about the ej swap. not everyone wants to go ej in their cars, i dont, not in my brat anyways. and post count means nothing. He wasn't ragging on the EA81, he was ragging the idea of installing a RAM performance engine package into a road car. the EJ example is handy because its 140 horsepower versus 140 horsepower, but you notice it comes up after saying that you could build a mean street EA81 for far less, and have it designed for the car its going in rather than an aircraft engine. In the end, the point was simply this: if you want power, then you have to pay for it. If you pay 10K for an automobile engine that was purpose built for a totally different purpose, then get ready to be ridiculed. It's not browbeating at all, some ideas just get dredged back up time and time again, and get OLD. Of course, hearing "screw that, put an EJ in it" gets a bit old, too.... but at least that argument does have logic on its side. Sometimes, some cars, you dont want the latest and greatest... but in the end RAM performance is good to us as a source of hi-po internals, and high reliability components. We should be glad for that, and not complain that their primary product is so out of our price range... Their primary product may as well be an outboard engine that HAPPENS to share pistons, rods, headgaskets... etc with the EA subarus. In the end, it gets old hearing people rag on GD for being realistic in the face of repetitive pointless subjects; its just another step in the feedback loop. Like the subject header says... "Ram Engines again..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qman Posted November 21, 2007 Share Posted November 21, 2007 OK, criticize the idea not the person. Do not try to talk done the others here. We do not need it. This topic has been covered more times then I can count. The same argument by the same people is getting old. Give it a rest for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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