Glowing red.

[testy]

I'm burning a stack of tires as we speak.

[cobcob]

I'm burning a stack of tires as we speak.

You too?? I thought I was the only one today!

[crazyhorse001]

Well said GeneralDisorder!

 

As I've stated before, I DO care for the environment. If my car ISN'T cleaner than the old motorcraft 2bbl carb, points disty, no EGR, or Evap; I'll eat my hat. After 30+ years on the road, the primitive emissions were all toast anyways. Yes I modded it for more HP. I swapped in an '89 EFI manifold, and ECU. I guarantee it will better ALL the emissions numbers, from '74. Even oxides of nitrogen, and carbon monoxide.

[DaveT]

+1 to GD from me, too.

 

1, 10 or even 1000 old subarus w/o cats won't make a measurable difference in global anything. *Maybe* if every car didn't have a cat, smog would be worse.

 

Buying cheap goods from countries that have little to no environmental regulation causes more pollution than a few old Subarus.

[GeneralDisorder]

The ENTIRE US non-commercial transportation sector is estimated to be responsible for 1 half of one percent of the global greenhouse gas emissions of the human race. That's 0.5%.

 

Nearly all of those vehicles are less than 10 years old, and unmodified. Most run well. Lets say that 10% don't (that's probably a huge overestimate, but lets just say...), and that those that don't run well are polluting, on average, 50% more than if they were properly tuned. Lets do the math shall we?

 

50% * 10% = .5 * .1 = .05 = 5%

 

So all the "gross polluter" vehicles will increase the total emissions of the non-commercial transportation sector by an additional 5%. BUT that's 5% of 0.5% of the total emissions of the population of the earth! So that would be:

 

5% * 0.5% = .05 * .005 = .00025 = .025%

 

.025% increase.... that's 1 quarter, of 1 tenth, of 1 percent.... statistically insignificant, and not even measurable.

 

Additionally, human activity AS A WHOLE is responsible for only 1 third (1/3rd, or 33%) of the total greenhouse gas emissions of the planet. Most of the emissions are from animal waste, volcanic activity, and a HUGE amount from the micro-organisms present in the Oceans. So total emissions of the earth are increased by:

 

.025% * 33% = .00025 * .33 = .0000825 = .00825%

 

I'm not even going to translate that into something readable because it's not, and never will be. It's insignificant, and worrying about it, or buying a Hybrid because of it.... well what do YOU think?

 

There needs to be more rational thought put into this stuff - right now it's a lot of knee-jerk reactionary politics and "buzz words" making it "fashionable" to worry about the environment. I for one am totally sick of our society's propensity for this stuff. Not that it's any different from the history of other civilizations - but it does give you some idea why I have so little patience for people in general......

 

GD

[The Beast I Drive]

The ENTIRE US non-commercial transportation sector is estimated to be responsible for 1 half of one percent of the global greenhouse gas emissions of the human race. That's 0.5%.

 

Nearly all of those vehicles are less than 10 years old, and unmodified. Most run well. Lets say that 10% don't (that's probably a huge overestimate, but lets just say...), and that those that don't run well are polluting, on average, 50% more than if they were properly tuned. Lets do the math shall we?

 

50% * 10% = .5 * .1 = .05 = 5%

 

So all the "gross polluter" vehicles will increase the total emissions of the non-commercial transportation sector by an additional 5%. BUT that's 5% of 0.5% of the total emissions of the population of the earth! So that would be:

 

5% * 0.5% = .05 * .005 = .00025 = .025%

 

.025% increase.... that's 1 quarter, of 1 tenth, of 1 percent.... statistically insignificant, and not even measurable.

 

Additionally, human activity AS A WHOLE is responsible for only 1 third (1/3rd, or 33%) of the total greenhouse gas emissions of the planet. Most of the emissions are from animal waste, volcanic activity, and a HUGE amount from the micro-organisms present in the Oceans. So total emissions of the earth are increased by:

 

.025% * 33% = .00025 * .33 = .0000825 = .00825%

 

I'm not even going to translate that into something readable because it's not, and never will be. It's insignificant, and worrying about it, or buying a Hybrid because of it.... well what do YOU think?

 

There needs to be more rational thought put into this stuff - right now it's a lot of knee-jerk reactionary politics and "buzz words" making it "fashionable" to worry about the environment. I for one am totally sick of our society's propensity for this stuff. Not that it's any different from the history of other civilizations - but it does give you some idea why I have so little patience for people in general......

 

GD

 

Hybrids really aren't that fuel efficient anyway, unless you have a Prius or an Insight. Most hybrids, including camry, civic, accord, escape, and the like don't get much better than 40mpg at best, and for the most part Subaru is one of the most fuel efficient cars on the planet, and I don't think they have even considered hybrids

[daeron]

well, in that case, im not gonna bother ever applying the brake when I shift into and out of drive or reverse.

 

I mean, each time, its only one minute fraction of the wear that my transmission and CV joints can handle, probably less than .000825%.

 

 

Unsubscribed.

[NV Zeno]

Rick, I'll have a beer waiting for ya at the WCSS...look me up.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Rick, I'll have a beer waiting for ya at the WCSS...look me up.

 

 

Will do! I finally have a decent job with weekends off so I'll be there!

 

GD

[ShawnW]

Go sit in your garage with the car running and tell me that the crap coming out of the tailpipe is good for you.

 

Ignore it, dont, I dont care just educate yourself from both/all sides before you throw all of the "environment" stuff in the garbage.

 

Theres no reason to not "tread lightly" and there is no reason to run a Subaru without a catalyst and use 1974 emissions standards.

 

Want to go back to BBS text only internet while you are at it?

 

Lets leave the pollution to the volcanos and the ocean.

 

If you are going to make your car run at 1974 levels at least make it peak levels. Air those tires up to proper levels, gap the spark plugs, check dwell, timing, and points and mount the high beam switch on the floor!

[GeneralDisorder]

Go sit in your garage with the car running and tell me that the crap coming out of the tailpipe is good for you.

 

People rant and rave about how everything and everyone is killing me, and yet no one can seem to explain to me how the population continues to rise, how the global quality of life continues to go up, and how life expectancy continues to grow seemingly without bound....?!?

 

Sure - people are dying of different causes now - because those causes are factors mostly of age. Ages that wouldn't have likely been reached 20, 30 or 50 years ago.

 

If you ate nothing but horse dung I bet you would probably feel just as bad as the guy that's sitting in his garage breathing exhaust fumes. Doesn't mean that cars are any more dangerous than horses for the environment.....

 

Yes there are, and always will be, things that will do you in, and FAST. And yes, we do produce a lot of those items ourselves - guns for instance. But equating a man sitting in his garage huffing pinto leavings to the entire atmosphere of a planet is exactly the kind of emotionally charged, scientifically worthless argument that I'm trying to point out. It's the same type of arguments that have been used for two decades to promote recycling (yet another worthless, expensive endeavour brought to you by government that knows best how to spend your money)... but what they don't tell you is that all the trash in the the US for the next 1,000 years would fit into a land fill just 10 miles square and 200 feet deep. And that the average US family produces fully 1/3rd less trash than the average household in Mexico. Or that the products produced from recycling most household "trash" don't recoup their costs....

 

Sadly, my views just aren't fashionable, and most of the people that beleive this stuff aren't willing to entertain the idea that a good portion of their lives and their worldview in general has been spoonfed to them by the media - having no real facts to back up anything they beleive. It's on powerpoint, so.... it MUST be true right?

 

We have television "ratings" for our news programs... why?!? Isn't it obvious? Because it's entertainment. Watch CSPAN sometime and you'll find out what real news is. And guess what? NO ratings! No commercials, no late night infomertials, and NO opinions. EVER! It's the only reason I have cable anymore!

 

GD

[Subaru_dude]

I never realized how little of a difference we actually made until I saw the math and figures. I'm certainly feeling a little more enlightened. And I think I'll give C-SPAN a shot. I can't stand TV because everything is far too entertainment oriented, including news.

 

The math got me thinking... well what about the smog? What does getting stuck behind the exhaust-less truck in traffic do to you? Hydrocarbons kill brain cells.... but that's absolutely all I know. I don't know how many brain cells are killed per minute of of breathing aformentioned exhaust (if any, maybe it's another one of those imeasureables). Waiting for GD's logic to chime in...

[subaruguru]

wow i was just making a joke didnt meen to start a flame war. i started to read the first few pages and i wouldent pay 100 bucks for a cat on a car that gose offroad mostly becasue the car cost me 200 in the first place. i just dont like a bunch of junk on my car. i like them simple (sorry i you think a cat isnt junk) but in my opinion its just something i dont feel a need for on my car. if you can afford a cat and if you have emissions wher you live do what you have to but i havea high suspition for as long as i have my car it will NEVER see an emissions test. anyways thats just me do what you like and do what you can afford. im not trying to burn anyone we are all intitled to our opinions. have a good day and sorry for what i caused Rob

[Sister7]

I think we are getting confused about what exactly the cat does and does not do. It converts environmental toxins (NOx, CO, HC) into non-toxic gases (N2, O2, CO2, H2O). By omitting you cat, you are releasing these toxins into the local envrionment. These toxins are shown to cause heart disease, resperatory problems, and other health effects in humans. If you're running without a cat you're not hurting "the environment" you are hurting PEOPLE.

 

A catalytic converter does NOT help reduce greenhouse gases in any way. It does not have any impact on the global climate, and any political/scientific/editorial comments about "global climate change" are irrelevent to the discussion about catalytic converters (and other emissions equipment).

[daeron]

but what they don't tell you is that all the trash in the the US for the next 1,000 years would fit into a land fill just 10 miles square and 200 feet deep.

 

 

Nor do they tell you that if the entire population of the globe right now, taken at a round seven billion, would fit into a box 1/2 mile on a side. Sheer body volume, taken a given average body mass of 180 pounds, density roughly equivalent to water, each body takes up 3 cubic feet. Translate that to cubic miles, and you get just over 1/8 cubic mile.

 

 

Minimizing numbers to make things sound smaller is not scientific thought either, man. I told my dad about this discussion today and the metaphor I used as that of Alcoholics Anonymous... They help people with seemingly insurmountable problems, and what is the first thing they say? "One day at a time..." I am the kind of man who will take every straw I can off of the camel's back, because that poor bugger is loaded down by about 6x10^234098304895 straws, and he doesn't need mine.

 

Personally, I think it is conceit to think that the continuing impact of the growing population could do anything BUT impact, and I find it dangerous to consider anything else. Population increase and longevity increase despite all this "poisoning" is a direct result of the trillion dollar pharmaceutical industry, not proof that we aren't damaging anything.

 

I wish I had the data (and remembered the trig functions necessary to calculate) the total number of "man-years" lived by the entire human population of the last 150 years, and could go back to compare how far back in history we would need to reach to equal the "man-years" lived in the past 150. IE, compare the 1850-present day period to the XXXX-1850 period and find out the difference between XXXX and 1850... The growth of our population is the point which makes the argument that much more urgent, NOT a proof that the impact is negligible.

 

The only television I watch is comedy, sheer entertainment. Not even mindless, because true comedy requires attention to appreciate (thank you seth green ) The "crackpot minority" scientific teams are the ones funded by the polluters and those who benefit from continued laxity.. simply paying attention to the names of the groups releasing studies, and correlating those to "think-tanks" and the like can show that fairly clearly, if not quite concretely.

 

The vast majority of sober minded scientists HAVE in fact, agreed that the time-plot of the data thus far collected is very short, and that the data are not set in stone yet.... BUT, the trends are so ALARMINGLY against our favor, that quite frankly IF the "doomsayers" are right, we haven't got any time to waste.. and if we are wrong, then we would HAPPILY taste our own feet from safe ground, then take the chance of grimly watching our opponents taste theirs, taking shallow solace in the fact that we were right.

 

It is a question of risk. I say again, cover your rump roast.

[GeneralDisorder]

Nor do they tell you that if the entire population of the globe right now, taken at a round seven billion, would fit into a box 1/2 mile on a side. Sheer body volume, taken a given average body mass of 180 pounds, density roughly equivalent to water, each body takes up 3 cubic feet. Translate that to cubic miles, and you get just over 1/8 cubic mile.

 

Yes - but burying people is sadistic, and burying trash is.... well they make nice golf courses out of it .

 

Minimizing numbers to make things sound smaller is not scientific thought either, man.

 

I didn't minimize anything. It's for illustration only, and in no way reflects any differences in the way the trash is stored or processes. It would be a *normal* landfill with the trash taking the same amount of volumetric space as in any other landfill in use today. It's to put the amount of trash produced into a perspective against the backdrop of the size of the continental US. There are still a LOT of people that believe the statement made by the former EPA director J. Winston Porter: "We are running out of places to dispose of our trash".

 

This is ridiculous, and patently false. He took into account ONLY the number of landfills and not their size. Failing to see that our total "landfill capacity" was actually increasing despite their numbers declining. Trash is an interstate commercial trade - all 50 states export the stuff, and nearly as many import it.

 

We are NOT, nor were we ever, running out of landfill space. It's by far the most economical, and environmentally sound way to dispose of trash. Especially compared to the previous methods used through history. From dumping it out the window into the streets where it was picked through by "rag dealers", to burning, stewing, or incineration.

 

I told my dad about this discussion today and the metaphor I used as that of Alcoholics Anonymous... They help people with seemingly insurmountable problems, and what is the first thing they say? "One day at a time..." I am the kind of man who will take every straw I can off of the camel's back, because that poor bugger is loaded down by about 6x10^234098304895 straws, and he doesn't need mine.

 

Actually the first thing AA does is tell you that you are powerless, and to appeal to a higher power for salvation. They are a religious organization. One that is often (wrongly IMO - what happend to seperation of church and state? Guess it doesn't apply to the criminal....) used by the courts as punishment. The first three of the 12 steps illustrate my point:

 

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

 

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

 

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God.

 

That's some foolishness right there! Also AA does not publish their statistics on how sucessful their program is. They don't have to as they are a private organization. One wonders about that - must not have much good publicity value in those numbers

 

Independant studdies have shown the rate of relapse is almost certainly over 90%. Similar studies have shown that people who attempt to quit without any outside assistance have a success rate of..... you guessed it - about 10%.

 

So do they really help people? Well they certainly make it easier to carry your (now lighter) wallet.

 

Personally, I think it is conceit to think that the continuing impact of the growing population could do anything BUT impact, and I find it dangerous to consider anything else. Population increase and longevity increase despite all this "poisoning" is a direct result of the trillion dollar pharmaceutical industry, not proof that we aren't damaging anything.

 

The impact of our population is a given. My point is that nothing we do or try to do, short of wiping out a couple billion people, will have any noticeable effect. The impact is directly correlated to the number of people on this planet. They all have to eat, and poop, and watch the Simpsons. The effects of a population the size of ours are so overwhelmingly large that no small changes are going to have any effect whatsoever on the outcome. I'm not arguing that we AREN'T making a huge, hairy mess - I'm saying that cleaning it up is futile. Men are just bears with furniture, and there aren't enough houswives on this poor planet to clean up the industrial size disaster of a home we live in.

 

I wish I had the data (and remembered the trig functions necessary to calculate) the total number of "man-years" lived by the entire human population of the last 150 years, and could go back to compare how far back in history we would need to reach to equal the "man-years" lived in the past 150. IE, compare the 1850-present day period to the XXXX-1850 period and find out the difference between XXXX and 1850... The growth of our population is the point which makes the argument that much more urgent, NOT a proof that the impact is negligible..

 

I have no doubt that those numbers are staggering.

 

The only television I watch is comedy, sheer entertainment. Not even mindless, because true comedy requires attention to appreciate (thank you seth green ) The "crackpot minority" scientific teams are the ones funded by the polluters and those who benefit from continued laxity.. simply paying attention to the names of the groups releasing studies, and correlating those to "think-tanks" and the like can show that fairly clearly, if not quite concretely.

 

Seriously - give CSPAN a try sometime. It will give you new perspective on some of your elected officials. Especially those from your home state. Pay attention to their viewpoints.

 

The vast majority of sober minded scientists HAVE in fact, agreed that the time-plot of the data thus far collected is very short, and that the data are not set in stone yet.... BUT, the trends are so ALARMINGLY against our favor, that quite frankly IF the "doomsayers" are right, we haven't got any time to waste.. and if we are wrong, then we would HAPPILY taste our own feet from safe ground, then take the chance of grimly watching our opponents taste theirs, taking shallow solace in the fact that we were right.

 

It is a question of risk. I say again, cover your rump roast.

 

Risk? Well I suppose if you want to live in fear of risk then you can have it. I am a top-down kind of guy I guess. I would rather work on the big issues first - worring about the cat on some guys 20 year old beater in the countryside..... not high on the list. Worring about what politician's are doing with my thousands of dollars of tax money is..... casting your vote and electing the right person to steer this ship is a far more effective use of your time. Getting someone that will be tough on China for all the pollution they cause for example..... educate yourself about such matters, because as long as your spare time is spent watching stand-up comedy, your complaints about some teracotta-toothed hillbilly gutting the cat on his 80's econo-box will fall on deaf ears.

 

GD

[Subaru_dude]

Worring about what politician's are doing with my thousands of dollars of tax money is..... casting your vote and electing the right person to steer this ship is a far more effective use of your time.

 

How can we do that when we're being stupidfied by hydrocarbons? You didn't touch up on that one.

[r_kirky]

Cat replacement $100

engine reseal kit $65

Hybrid $35,000

 

A feeling of moral superiority over our peers - Priceless

:Flame:

[screwbaru2]

Cat replacement $100

engine reseal kit $65

Hybrid $35,000

 

A feeling of moral superiority over our peers - Priceless

:Flame:

One thing you could try. I've done this only done this w/ a carb'd motor but I'd do with my soob if I had your problem. Take a can of carb cleaner with the motor hot expose the air horn rev the motor high 2000 2500 > and spary that cleaner into the airhorn until the can is empty. You'll get black smoke lots of it and the worst rotten egg smell you've ever smelt, your neighbors will hate you but your cat will be clear or burned out inside ( no honycomb) don't know which never took one apart to find out either way your problem will be solved.

[testy]

I Wasted An Entire Tank Of Gas Doing Donuts In The Snow With No Cat.

[joostvdw]

I Wasted An Entire Tank Of Gas Doing Donuts In The Snow With No Cat.

 

and we have the hole in the ozone layer to prove it...

[Deltacam]

not to worry, Tacoma is doing it's part to produce smog from the tide flats....... to plug that hole up !