Sometimes ABS sucks

[bgambino]

My 96 is my second car with ABS and I still am uncomfortable with it on the snow. It may all be in my mind but it just seems that when the brakes lock, the car naturally lunges and pitches forward some and the front wheels are more prone to digging in and thru some of the snow so as to reach the road surface.

As for it all being in my mind...for decades one is used to frantically pumping the brakes like a mad man....sliding ...and your heart pounding during a skid...LOL

With ABS you just sit there and push as hard as hell and you feel at the mercy of a machine to do the job.....like you have much less control (of course I mean about stopping--it's obvious that you have much better control of the steering with the ABS)

 

I guess what I/one of us should do is do some unscientifically controlled tests with and w/o the ABS and measure the stopping distances. If the ABS truly stops sooner...that may help ease the mind game going on up stairs.

 

As an aside....my nieces 96 legacy's ABS unit had a slight hum sound with the key off and the battery was being killed....so I diconnected it some time back. Can the electrical part only be replaced (do you have to disconnect brake lines at the ABS?). And what's involved in doing so? Anyone got one?

[bheinen74]

i sort of wish they would just make a 2 wheel ABS system.

I am not an engineer.

With ABS working, stop on ICE about 90 feet (sliding right passed the stop sign and onto the road it crossed in front), foot pressed hard and firm on brake.

 

Without ABS same road, same ICE, stop about 10 feet, right at the stop sign, no sliding thru, no sliding into oncoming trucks.

 

The upper scale car manufacturer have a disable switch and in the owners manual tell the owner to use the defeat switch in ice and snow, for a reason. I do disable mine, based on my knowledge on how it works and doesnt work on ice, down a hill.

 

My drivers ed, the cars did not HAVE ABS and that was how i was taught.Heck my first car (1964 Chevelle) did not even have power brakes, thats how i learned.

Edited December 30, 2009 by bheinen74

[JohnKos]

I don't know what to tell ya. I drive the OB in snow, ice, dirt, gravel, etc... Never had a problem stopping. So does my wife without issue. Knowing how the system works does not mean you know how to work the system.

 

 

Next time you are in eastern PA during/after a good snow, look me up and i'll let you take her for a spin (slide) and you can show me how to work the system. No sarcasm, just want to see if it's really me and not the car. I've always managed to stop all the cars i've ever owned while living in North Jersey. Used to have a job at Hidden Valley ski area and never had a problem getting there or home in any storm.

[johnceggleston]

we don't get enough snow to be able to say that abs is the problem. but i can say with certainty, during the last snow, 16", i had much more control of the car going down hill in 1st (auto trans) than i did when i put my foot on the brake. the tires were grabbing when in gear, all 4 by the way, and i could slow down and drive. as soon as i tried to come to a complete stop , with the abs, it became more like a sleigh ride.

 

i didn't know enough to put it in neutral. i'll have to read my owners manual to see what it recommends for snow and ice. i don't remember any warnings or suggestions regarding abs, but then it's hard to read and drive at the same time.

 

and there was one stop light and hill combination that had me worried. i figured out a plan as i was not slowing enough and then i stopped. but then i worried about the guy behind me and started looking for somewhere to go just in case.

[hankosolder2]

Removing the fuse is not considered a good idea. Proper driving techniques are the answer to this problem.

 

I find it hard to believe that all you foul weather drivers have not figured this out or been taught in while learning to drive. It was one of the first things I learned as a kid learning to drive.

 

ABS in a manual trans car is as easy as pushing in the clutch. It isn't the system it is the operator not knowing how to handle the system. Sorry, just my opinion. But, feel free to search out foul weather driving tips.

 

Remember, disabling a safety system will revoke insurance coverage. Could move the blame for an accident to you, your fault or not due to tampering. Taking your own life into your own hands is one thing. But doing it on a public throughfare is another thing all together.

 

Per the '98 OBW owner's manual: "when driving on...icy roads, over deep newly fallen snow, stopping distances may be longer with a vehicle with ABS than one without."

 

I'm not sure that wanting your vehicle to be able to stop in the shortest possible distance is a bad thing and I understand why people defeat ABS. Yes, you can go slower, use engine braking and other techniques to mitigate the downsides of ABS, but sometimes circumstances force your hand. When somebody pulls out in front of you without warning you want a car that can stop pronto.

 

I don't understand why they don't just set the ABS threshold speed much higher, like 15 mph or so. It would be the best of both worlds.

[Qman]

Per the '98 OBW owner's manual: "when driving on...icy roads, over deep newly fallen snow, stopping distances may be longer with a vehicle with ABS than one without."

 

I'm not sure that wanting your vehicle to be able to stop in the shortest possible distance is a bad thing and I understand why people defeat ABS. Yes, you can go slower, use engine braking and other techniques to mitigate the downsides of ABS, but sometimes circumstances force your hand. When somebody pulls out in front of you without warning you want a car that can stop pronto.

 

I don't understand why they don't just set the ABS threshold speed much higher, like 15 mph or so. It would be the best of both worlds.

 

If you would read my post you would also note that I said by using neutral and downshifting it works fine. If you just use the brakes in snow and ice with the car in drive you will continue to have problems. I drove in the worst ice storm ever in the NW with no issues. I am sure I could do the same there. I am not questioning "your" driving ability. Just wondering why no one uses other means for braking. That is all, nothing more.

 

My biggest point was to learn to use the systems provided. Not to disable the safety equipment!

[nipper]

Removing the fuse is not considered a good idea. Proper driving techniques are the answer to this problem. Nipper has touched on the best way to handle this. Especially in an automatic equipped vehicle.

 

By shifting into neutral you remove the force that causes the slides when braking. Do this only when coming to a stop. This will allow for engine and pedal braking. The trans does not know the road conditions. It's job is to drive or push the car. When braking on slippery surfaces the wheels with the least resistance will stop. Usually the fronts because rotors hold much better with less force. Add AWD now it is pushing all 4 wheels. ABS is designed to pulse the brakes and avoid locking to allow for controlled braking.

 

I find it hard to believe that all you foul weather drivers have not figured this out or been taught in while learning to drive. It was one of the first things I learned as a kid learning to drive.

 

ABS in a manual trans car is as easy as pushing in the clutch. It isn't the system it is the operator not knowing how to handle the system. Sorry, just my opinion. But, feel free to search out foul weather driving tips.

 

Remember, disabling a safety system will revoke insurance coverage. Could move the blame for an accident to you, your fault or not due to tampering. Taking your own life into your own hands is one thing. But doing it on a public throughfare is another thing all together.

 

 

I think its just people expecting too much out of what the car can do and ignoring physics. I would bet they are all over driving the car without realizing it.

 

Sadly since everyplace on the planet is super hyper about cleaning every spec of snor off a paved surface we cant make our own skidpads to train ourselves on how to use abs, or even properly drive in snow conditions. Remember where there is snow, there is ice. People tend to forget that. Then add in underinflated tires (like 90% of the driving public has), and thinking just cause a car can go anywhere it can stop anywhere attitude, ABS gets blamed.

 

It is simple. Slow down, break a hell of a lot sooner (most people brake too late for dry ground as it is normally) and everything would be fine.

 

Ok i am off my soapbox, but there is only one reason for rearending someone, and that is following too closely (and too fats) for the conditions at hand. Everything else is just a failure to accept personal responsability (but your insurance compoany will take care of that).

 

Gee can you tell I've gotten rear ended by people overdriving thier cars 12 times, once almost fatally?

 

Just slow down in the snow, it wont kill you, but not slowing down may .

 

 

nipper

[nipper]

i sort of wish they would just make a 2 wheel ABS system.

I am not an engineer.

With ABS working, stop on ICE about 90 feet (sliding right passed the stop sign and onto the road it crossed in front), foot pressed hard and firm on brake.

 

Without ABS same road, same ICE, stop about 10 feet, right at the stop sign, no sliding thru, no sliding into oncoming trucks.

 

The upper scale car manufacturer have a disable switch and in the owners manual tell the owner to use the defeat switch in ice and snow, for a reason. I do disable mine, based on my knowledge on how it works and doesnt work on ice, down a hill.

 

My drivers ed, the cars did not HAVE ABS and that was how i was taught.Heck my first car (1964 Chevelle) did not even have power brakes, thats how i learned.

 

 

My drivers ed car in the 70's didnt have abs either. Thats how i was taught. My father was a professional driver and he taught me how to drive WITH abs as well as without. As far as that "defeat" switch, i suggest that you READ the manuals for those cars. Some dont fully turn them off, and some tun them back on after a specific threashold is reached. Also Upper sclae mfgs know that the owner of the car is NOT going to take his ferrari, lambo, SLK in a foot of snow.

 

 

nipper

[nipper]

And for the idle speed comment, that means nothing, unless your engine is off. You are in gear. Gears are multiplying speeds. See how fats your car will go to with your foot off the gas and brake, it is still a good clip to do damage to a car, or god forbid a person.

 

nipper

[nipper]

My last word on the subject. For those who want to disconnect the abs. Pull the fuse, find a parking lot (big) Forget straight line manuvers. Get some cones and set up a course where you would quickly STEER (yes remeber thats the other way to avoid hitting something) around it while braking and see how well it works.

 

In winter driving you have to try to always leave yourself a way out. ABS may suck for some reason or another (we know how i feel about this) but if you STEER along with braking the car will go where you want to go. The only thing you hurt by hitting an object is your ego. You hurt alot more when you hit the car in front of you.

 

And that is my last word on this.

 

 

And i am SURE everyone who disconnects his ABS tells his insurance company about it.

 

 

nipper

[bheinen74]

ABS needs sensitivity adjustability.

My factory radio has a volume knob to adjust how loud or soft the driver wants it.

My Subaru has a knob to adjust hot or cool air in the cabin.

ABS needs a knob to adjust the sensitivity, and it doesnt have that, so i take it away. For the cost of ABS on a car, manufacturing cost standpoint, it is not perfected to say the least, but it should be, its been around for long enough and it still is not correct.

 

I would not advise/recommend disable a safety part of a car to anyone. Just that is what is my preference

 

**Also, if car manufacturers want to make a safer car, they should design a cars cruise control system to be shutdown in snow/icey ABS required situations. my 2bits.

Edited December 31, 2009 by bheinen74

[Gene J]

After having finally gotten used to having ABS I would not like to drive without it.

 

A case in point. When the tone ring on my Legacy was broken the ABS shut itself off in about a minute or so after starting the car.

 

The practical difference? The wheels would lock up almost always. The real down side? If one wheel caught traction on a dry spot and the other three wheels were still on glare ice, the car could get sideways.

 

Just drive more slowly and take your time. The ABS is just there to help you.

 

Also for the record there is very little additional distance in stopping on ice with ABS engaged.

[Qman]

ABS needs sensitivity adjustability.

My factory radio has a volume knob to adjust how loud or soft the driver wants it.

My Subaru has a knob to adjust hot or cool air in the cabin.

ABS needs a knob to adjust the sensitivity, and it doesnt have that, so i take it away. For the cost of ABS on a car, manufacturing cost standpoint, it is not perfected to say the least, but it should be, its been around for long enough and it still is not correct.

 

I would not advise/recommend disable a safety part of a car to anyone. Just that is what is my preference

 

**Also, if car manufacturers want to make a safer car, they should design a cars cruise control system to be shutdown in snow/icey ABS required situations. my 2bits.

 

What are you talking about. You make no sense. ABS doesn't work you say. It should be a perfect system. Cruise control shut down. Really?

 

The bottom line is the system works exactly as it was designed. It is not an auto-pilot. It should not tell you the intersection ahead is icy. You should know it or at the very least suspect that the intersection is icy. The ambient temp, moisture in the air, blah, blah, blah.

 

You have to come up with a better arguement. Sounds more like you can not adjust to conditions. I drive one way every day and the weather should adjust to me. Really, think about it before you type it.

 

Nipper,

 

Well stated on every level!

[bgambino]

all I can say is that this post was VERY telling....

 

"Per the '98 OBW owner's manual: "when driving on...icy roads, over deep newly fallen snow, stopping distances may be longer with a vehicle with ABS than one without."

 

Now...yes, SHAME on me for not reading my 96 owners manual with a fine tooth comb even tho I have been driving soobs since 1980

BUT.....I would bet that over 95% of people out there have no idea this is a possibility! I would have bet a paycheck against that comment being true...why? The propaganda is that ABS is better in all/every situation. When has the general public ever heard anything to the contrary? I am shocked to read this.

 

And okay....you few brainiacs who have no life and all you do is read about cars....fine...no need to put the 98% of us down because this is a new revalation for us

 

But don't you think this is a CRITICAL bit of knowledge that somehow should be in the minds of the public? But then again let's face it....when are the negatives of any product brought to the fore?----the problem here is that it can mean lives

 

I'm thankful for hearing this as now I have some testing and practicing to do....But what about the other 97% who have never heard about this....?

[CNY_Dave]

And for the idle speed comment, that means nothing, unless your engine is off. You are in gear. Gears are multiplying speeds. See how fats your car will go to with your foot off the gas and brake, it is still a good clip to do damage to a car, or god forbid a person.

 

nipper

 

Of course the idle speed is an important factor, for that last little bit where you're almost but not quite stopped.

 

Maybe it is due to another factor, but N or D or any other gear doesn't make a whit of diff on my H6, and I do know the H6 has a slightly lower idle.

 

 

Dave

[Qman]

all I can say is that this post was VERY telling....

 

"Per the '98 OBW owner's manual: "when driving on...icy roads, over deep newly fallen snow, stopping distances may be longer with a vehicle with ABS than one without."

 

Now...yes, SHAME on me for skimming through my 96 owners manual even tho I have been driving soobs since 1980.

BUT.....I would bet that over 95% of people out there have no idea this is a possibility! I would have bet a paycheck against that comment being true...why? The propaganda is that ABS is better in all/every situation. When has the general public ever heard anything to the contrary? I am shocked to read this.

 

And okay....you few brainiacs who have no life and all you do is read about cars....fine...no need to put the 98% of us down because this is a new revalation for us

 

But don't you think this is a CRITICAL bit of knowledge that somehow should be in the minds of the public? But then again let's face it....when are the negatives of any product brought to the fore?----the problem here is that it can mean lives

 

I'm thankful for hearing this as now I have some testing and practicing to do....But what about the other 97% who have never heard about this....?

 

First, skimming is not the fault of those "with no lives". The information is available to everyone who looks for it.

 

Second, Darwin will take care of the other 97%.

 

Seriously though, people rely way too much on other things instead of themselves. Most Subaru owners are starting to act like the other idiots with 4WD. I can go anywhere therefore I should do so at regular speeds and the car should adapt to me. You still have to stop. You still need to take the conditions into account. You still need to be in control. If you have to slow down to be in control then guess what...

 

SLOW DOWN!

 

It's not rocket science. It is simple mechanics

[wally]

the subaru abs system, at least in the 1st gen legacys, is garbage. i disconnected it the day i bought it, in 1999.

 

this applies specifically to those who drive in snowy/icy locations. i don't care about dry pavement. if you can't stop on dry pavement, with or without abs, you shouldn't be driving.

 

the two subarus i've driven with abs, my '95 legacy wagon, and my grandfather's '96 legacy wagon, are the only two cars i've ever driven that were virtually impossible to stop under the circumstances/conditions i usually drive in the winter. period. my '75 jeep cj stops better in the snow. my frigging '48 dodge 1.5 ton dump truck (which weighs close to 10,000 lbs) stops better in the snow with drum brakes front and rear, and a single chamber master cylinder. my wife's '97 corolla stops better in the snow. and since i've disconnected the abs in the legacy, it stops better than when it left the factory.

 

my previous '81 subie DL wagon, '84 renault fuego, '67 bug, '84 accord, '87 accord, '85 dodge d-50, '52 dodge pickup all stopped better in snow.

 

it's a flaw.

[vic/se]

I live in Montreal and winters are long here !!

I hate gadgets in cars .....but ABS is the best thing you can have for 99% of drivers on 90% of road conditions

[bgambino]

First, skimming is not the fault of those "with no lives". The information is available to everyone who looks for it.

 

Second, Darwin will take care of the other 97%.

 

Seriously though, people rely way too much on other things instead of themselves. Most Subaru owners are starting to act like the other idiots with 4WD. I can go anywhere therefore I should do so at regular speeds and the car should adapt to me. You still have to stop. You still need to take the conditions into account. You still need to be in control. If you have to slow down to be in control then guess what...

 

SLOW DOWN!

 

It's not rocket science. It is simple mechanics

 

Q

Maybe you missed my point

ABS is touted as the greatest thing since sliced bread(ok, a slight exaggeration). The fact is, 98% of the driving public has no clue that IT MAY INCREASE the stopping distance in snow and ice.

 

Slowing down goes without question...but it has nothing to do with my comment.

Sounds like you are taking this whole subject personally

[Qman]

Q

Maybe you missed my point

ABS is touted as the greatest thing since sliced bread(ok, a slight exaggeration). The fact is, 98% of the driving public has no clue that IT MAY INCREASE the stopping distance in snow and ice.

 

Slowing down goes without question...but it has nothing to do with my comment.

Sounds like you are taking this whole subject personally

 

You obviously missed my point as well.

 

Messing with safety equipment is bad, period.

 

People forget that Subaru's, specifically, go so well in foul weather that they should stop just as well. Problem is that people do not slow down. People assume that their vehicles will stop them at whatever speed they are travelling.

 

ABS is designed to not allow the brakes to lock. Therefore, they are safer. If your wheels are locked you can not steer or stop safely. There may be instances that you need to slam on your brakes and come sliding to a stop... oh, yeah, when you are going too fast!

[bgambino]

You obviously missed my point as well.

 

Messing with safety equipment is bad, period.

 

People forget that Subaru's, specifically, go so well in foul weather that they should stop just as well. Problem is that people do not slow down. People assume that their vehicles will stop them at whatever speed they are travelling.

 

ABS is designed to not allow the brakes to lock. Therefore, they are safer. If your wheels are locked you can not steer or stop safely. There may be instances that you need to slam on your brakes and come sliding to a stop... oh, yeah, when you are going too fast!

 

Q

I never disagreed with you...I'm on your side

ABS in the snow certainly has advantages...but let's not be blind to the disadvantages that even the manufacturer warns about...."stopping distances in snow may very well be longer"......and this could be true no matter what speed you are going

 

People should not take that to mean it is best to disable it.....it means, "don't assume that the insignia on your car "ABS" automatically means it is better under all stopping conditions" ....and most people like me were under a false impression (clearly my fault)

 

As an aside...I was coming down my paved driveway yesterday with about 2" of new snow...I tried stopping while in gear(automatic) and in nuetral and did not notice any appreciable difference in the ABS actions....from what I thought I read earlier, there was supposed to be a difference..?

[wally]

Messing with safety equipment is bad, period.

 

People forget that Subaru's, specifically, go so well in foul weather that they should stop just as well. Problem is that people do not slow down. People assume that their vehicles will stop them at whatever speed they are travelling.

 

ABS is designed to not allow the brakes to lock. Therefore, they are safer. If your wheels are locked you can not steer or stop safely. There may be instances that you need to slam on your brakes and come sliding to a stop... oh, yeah, when you are going too fast!

 

no. i don't drive the abs-equipped subarus any differently than the non-abs equipped cars during the winter. i drive them ALL differently in snow/ice conditions than in dry pavement conditions - slower. speed isn't a factor. the poor design of the abs system is. i don't care about going, as i can virtually always get the vehicle moving. what i care about is stopping, and the subies with abs don't get it done.

[idosubaru]

I think everyone is right to various degrees, this is kind of a gray area. It is quite annoying that ABS has some glitches in rough weather.

 

But a lot of people are driving terribly in snow and ice. Is there a test for that? Are they reading about that somewhere? The ABS thing is really a drop in the bucket, even though I was fired up about it too at first. Any accident resulting from ABS should be low speed and minor. Accidents resulting from stupidity are far more serious.

 

4WD, LSD, and snow tires improve traction but there's hardly anything that will improve braking in slick conditions - so all of that stuff just enables people to drive faster than they should.

 

When confronted with snow, tires and speed are orders of magnitude more important than anything else. I'm getting to the point where I wish states would require snow tires or chains just because people are driving like buffoons. I hate regulations but folks just drive way to dangerous in bad conditions.

 

Qman's words ring true around here, i won't even begin to tell stories just from this year. All involving 4WD vehicles so far. Get studs or chains and the car will stop!

[Gloyale]

ABS is designed to not allow the brakes to lock. Therefore, they are safer. If your wheels are locked you can not steer or stop safely. There may be instances that you need to slam on your brakes and come sliding to a stop... oh, yeah, when you are going too fast!

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

It is not nearly so cut and dry.

 

I am not talking about situation where a person is going too fast.

 

I am talking about when someone is rolling slowly down a slippery hill, with cars or some obstyacle at the bottom. WITH ABS, the slope of the hill is enough to keep the cars momentum, while a wheel locks (from very very little peddle input), Well now the ABS takes over and keeps the wheels from stopping......allowing you to roll on into whatever is in front of you.......even though you are desperately MASHING the brakes to the floor.

 

I'm not talikin about skiding, I mean rolling.......

 

 

C'mon.......it DOES say it right in the owners manual.......Subaru KNOWS that ABS is not so good for snow/ice.

 

But Marketing Surveys show people will pay more and feel warm and squishy about it just for the false sense of security those 3 little letters provide.

[Qman]

bgambino, wally, grossgary and Gloyale,

 

Your posts are accurate. My original point still stands. Disabling the ABS by switches or faux fuses is against the law.

 

Driving conditions should dictate how a person drives not the safety equipment. I may have misrepresented myself as an advocate for ABS. I am not. I remove the ABS from the race cars. I know how to disable it for rallycross. As stated earlier 97% of drivers benefit from it. In part because they drive the conditions not the gas pedal.

 

There are conditions where everything is bad. If we debated every one of them we would miss a lot of things far more important.

 

Just remember, Darwin will take care of the problem eventually.